SlinginSammy HOF '63 Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Please God. Not a 4th straight mediocre season.:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Originally posted by ChrisFul Eagles 10-6 Giants 10-6 Redskins 9-7 Dallas 7-9 To the guy predicting 2 wins for Dallas: this is a better team than last season, and even with the worst offense ive seen in some time, Dallas still managed to be a few plays away from 7 wins. ok, you tell me who they are gonna beat, and with what football players...? their schedule is tougher than last season, they didn't do anything to improve their team through FA... and besides Terence Newman their rookies won't contribute much... seven wins for dallas.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Dallas 7 wins: 1 Arizona 1Detroit 2 Washington 2 Giants 1 Philidelphia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Originally posted by Angus Dallas 7 wins: 1 Arizona 1Detroit 2 Washington 2 Giants 1 Philidelphia Uh huh. If the Cowboys go 5-1 in their division they'll win 7. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 they'll probably get a wild-card berth too at 7-9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 I don't know that it's really true that Dallas is a better team now than they were. They are weaker along the defensive line, they've spent too much on a very poor left tackle in Adams, they've lost Emmitt who while no longer an elite runner was a champion who played with heart and desire lacking in so many Cowboys. Parcells is a clear improvement who should be a boon for a team with such limited talent as the Cowboys have. But, he can only do so much and while teams may have stopped loving beating up on the tri-5-11 Cowboys toward the end of Campo's regime, just adding Parcells will get teams up for the Cowboys again. You lack a competent QB and worse, unlike the Redskins, you lack a guy with the type of promise to give you hope of something better. While reserving the greatest of respect for Parcells, I simply fail to see what Dallas had one that demonstrates much improvement in terms of talent and certainly there appears to be a genuine lack of talent in terms of fit with a typical Parcells style team -- especially so on the defense. While I wouldn't be surprised with seven wins out of the Cowboys I think that would be a high tribute to Parcells as a coach and I think you're likely to get much worse as he breaks everyone down this year and finds the sort of player he can win with both on your roster and off during the next offseason. Perhaps that won't prove to be so. I just know you had a whole lot more shine in total going into last year than you do going into this in my view. Especially with Parcells being the sort who might represent a bit of culture shock for an overly pampered bunch of players who will likely at least initially resent how overriding he can be as a coach. The same thing happened in Washington with a lesser coach like Marty. But even Marty would have wound up winning having spent a year isolating the players who fit his style and weeding out those who didn't. I don't think it'll happen overnight for Parcells in Dallas as it did with the Jets in New York. Parcells had to tear down his Giants team, losing terribly in order to get his system installed before the winning came. His first Giants team was worse than the Giants team before it. His first Patriots team was actually better, though even with just five wins it surprised even Parcells by winning that many as he's said it was probably his worst team in terms of talent. With the Jets he had the benefit of a solid group of guys and a veteran QB to at least produce a steady season and wonderful turnaround. And, to be fair, with as awful a coach as Kotite was, the players believed in Parcells and probably exceeded themselves that first year. Such a thing is very possible in Dallas where awful coaching from Campo fed into repeated losing. If Parcells can get a pretty good start from this team it could be inspired enough to be even better than seven wins I suppose. I just think it seems more likely that Dallas may have to be broken down before it can play for Parcells and that may lead to a very weak season though the future is so much more bright just having him around that it won't probably matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Art, Henry, you may very well be right, but right now all of us are merely guessing. None of us know. Dallas may be in for another unpleasant surprise, and the Washington decline may continue. Remember, Washington lost more games last year than it lost the year before, even though it broke the Dallas stranglehold at the end. All analysis is subject to embarrassment because of injuries, unexpected off-field developments, and astounding turn-arounds heading either up or down. I suspect it is just as likely that Dallas will sweep the Redskins again and win five division games as it is that Dallas will win only two games. I could be wrong, but so could everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 You are certainly correct, Angus. It is impossible for any of us to know what the future holds in terms of possible records for either of our teams. You could be right that Dallas rises beyond their talent and wins seven games, including two against Washington. We've certainly seen the Cowboys beat Washington in the past with substantially lesser talent so envisioning such a thing is certainly within the realm of reason. As right as you are that we can not really know what the future holds for our teams in terms of record, we can both agree that other than tight end and safety and perhaps running back though time will tell, the Redskins are superior at every position on the football field both in terms of starting ability and depth. Such an advantage should benefit us while such a lesser ability should harm you. And while we don't really know how the teams will come together and perform at least we do know that your team lacks talent in comparison to most teams and especially all other teams in the NFC East. While we don't know much at least we do know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Agreed -- on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art You are certainly correct, Angus. It is impossible for any of us to know what the future holds in terms of possible records for either of our teams. You could be right that Dallas rises beyond their talent and wins seven games, including two against Washington. We've certainly seen the Cowboys beat Washington in the past with substantially lesser talent so envisioning such a thing is certainly within the realm of reason. As right as you are that we can not really know what the future holds for our teams in terms of record, we can both agree that other than tight end and safety and perhaps running back though time will tell, the Redskins are superior at every position on the football field both in terms of starting ability and depth. Such an advantage should benefit us while such a lesser ability should harm you. And while we don't really know how the teams will come together and perform at least we do know that your team lacks talent in comparison to most teams and especially all other teams in the NFC East. While we don't know much at least we do know that. You know Art, thanks for tempering my enthusiasm for the upcoming season. Really, I mean, I don't have any idea why we should be any better than the 5-11 team we have been the last three years. We have no talent, why bother even playing. I mean, even in those other 3 5-11 seasons, we managed to sweep or split with the skins. Surely we will lose both to the suddenly ALL MIGHTY (At least in Skins fans minds) Redskins. Here is one thing i do know Art, and you can disagree with me if you want to. Everyone, and I mean everyone, KNOWS that the REDSKINS have the WORST coach in the Division. You CANNOT dispute this. You have the WORST!!!!!! Now, explain to me again how the Redskins are going to own the Cowboys this year with that bafoon running your team. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinster Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 WAS Redskins (11-5 Or 12-4) Sep. 4 NY Jets -- W Sep. 14 @Atlanta -- L Sep. 21 NY Giants -- W Sep. 28 New England -- W Oct. 5 @Philadelphia -- ?This will be the most competitive game in years..... Super close, & just to close to call!! Oct. 12 Tampa Bay -- W Oct. 19 @Buffalo -- L BYE WEEK Nov. 2 @Dallas -- W Nov. 9 Seattle -- W Nov. 16 @Carolina -- W Nov. 23 @Miami -- L Nov. 30 New Orleans --W Ramsey will be the toast of the town REDEMPTION TIME!!! 0-Line Has 0 Sacks allowed in game:notworthy: Dec. 7 @NY Giants -- W Dec. 14 Dallas -- W Dec. 21 @Chicago -- L Dec. 27 Philadelphia -- W Were going to handle the Giants & Dallas!!!:cheers:Maybe Split with Eagles??? Maybe Sweep!!! We were in every game last year with the Giants and the Cowpokes!! This year..... they just wont handle our talent level on both side of the ball! Sorry to be so bold, but opinions are what makes the world go round!!:tongue: Skinster!!! Skin 4 Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ken, Yours is an emotional post seeking to cause shock and concern on my part and yet given the almost menstrual nature of your comments you've failed to inspire much concern on my part. Interestingly you seem to think I predicted the Redskins would sweep the Cowboys. While that is certainly a likely situation given the supreme talent advantages we enjoy over your woeful rabble, the only prediction of a sweep I see in recent comments is from Angus and A.J. each picking his own team. Perhaps it is your own recognition of the differences in talent on our teams that lead you to believe, perhaps even with more insight than is typical of a Cowboy fan, that the Redskins will sweep the Cowboys, and therefore anyone recognizing the extreme differences in actual talent on the teams must draw that necessary correlation. Unfortunately I've not quite gone that far. In fact, I even mentioned we've seen lesser talented Cowboy teams beat better Washington teams in the past, just as we saw a lesser talented Washington team sweep a Super Bowl Cowboy team a few years back. Strange things happen in a long series such as our teams enjoy. I don't know that you are incorrect to assign Spurrier the status as the weakest coach in the division at this point. That certainly seems a spot he deserves on the merit of being a coach with one year of experience. After a season in Philly Andy Reid was 5-11 and inspired little concern in terms of coaching wits. Now he's something a bit more impressive on merit, despite rumblings even from Philly fans about his arrogance in how he uses his players in terms of offensive strengths in favor of how they fit the system. Jim Fassel has been up and mediocre in New York and he's certainly better than Spurrier would be considered today based on merit, despite his somewhat legendary ability to make or allow some immensely boneheaded in game decisions that cost his team games. Not to mention his position on the coaching hot seat just a few weeks before last season ended. Bill Parcells is a coaching legend. Not much of a coach after his first year. Hell, not even much of a coach after his last year at .500, but, who could doubt his rested ability to coax his team isn't superior to that of Spurrier as of this moment. Spurrier, of course, could become a better coach and the Redskins a better team, as each of the other three coaches in the division have seen happen under their lead in their previous cities. Or, Spurrier could become another Dave Campo with a bit more flair. But, though I never said the Redskins would have ownership over the Cowboys this coming season, an honest realization that Spurrier is not as good a coach today as any in the division doesn't diminish the balancing and perhaps tipping fact in our favor that other than safety and tight end the Redskins are better at every position on the football field both in terms of starting ability and reserve strength than Dallas is. Whether that translates into ownership of the Cowboys this year or not I can't say. I can say you're right that Spurrier could prove to be a liability. Of course, I've not yet heard you say your lack of talent -- talent that on the whole is far below that of any team in the division -- may prove to be the same for you. Feel free to join me in waking up anytime you feel like it Ken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Ken Here is one thing i do know Art, and you can disagree with me if you want to. Everyone, and I mean everyone, KNOWS that the REDSKINS have the WORST coach in the Division. You CANNOT dispute this. You have the WORST!!!!!! As a typical dallas fan you are talking out of your a$$ before even thinking about what you say. Let see Spurrier did go 7-9 his first year without a starting QB, 1 WR, a RB that didn't fit the system, and no OL to save the crappy qb's lifes. Andy Reid went, oh my 5-11 his first season, very impressive. Fossil actually did pretty well 10-5-1 his first season, can't complain there. Your boy Parcells went 3-12-1 in his first season, hmm not bad. He should pray he gets Dallas to that record this year. So after only one year in the league he had outperformed 2 other coaches. Before you bash Spurrier lets see how he does this year mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art Ken, Yours is an emotional post seeking to cause shock and concern on my part and yet given the almost menstrual nature of your comments you've failed to inspire much concern on my part. Interestingly you seem to think I predicted the Redskins would sweep the Cowboys. While that is certainly a likely situation given the supreme talent advantages we enjoy over your woeful rabble, the only prediction of a sweep I see in recent comments is from Angus and A.J. each picking his own team. Perhaps it is your own recognition of the differences in talent on our teams that lead you to believe, perhaps even with more insight than is typical of a Cowboy fan, that the Redskins will sweep the Cowboys, and therefore anyone recognizing the extreme differences in actual talent on the teams must draw that necessary correlation. Unfortunately I've not quite gone that far. In fact, I even mentioned we've seen lesser talented Cowboy teams beat better Washington teams in the past, just as we saw a lesser talented Washington team sweep a Super Bowl Cowboy team a few years back. Strange things happen in a long series such as our teams enjoy. I don't know that you are incorrect to assign Spurrier the status as the weakest coach in the division at this point. That certainly seems a spot he deserves on the merit of being a coach with one year of experience. After a season in Philly Andy Reid was 5-11 and inspired little concern in terms of coaching wits. Now he's something a bit more impressive on merit, despite rumblings even from Philly fans about his arrogance in how he uses his players in terms of offensive strengths in favor of how they fit the system. Jim Fassel has been up and mediocre in New York and he's certainly better than Spurrier would be considered today based on merit, despite his somewhat legendary ability to make or allow some immensely boneheaded in game decisions that cost his team games. Not to mention his position on the coaching hot seat just a few weeks before last season ended. Bill Parcells is a coaching legend. Not much of a coach after his first year. Hell, not even much of a coach after his last year at .500, but, who could doubt his rested ability to coax his team isn't superior to that of Spurrier as of this moment. Spurrier, of course, could become a better coach and the Redskins a better team, as each of the other three coaches in the division have seen happen under their lead in their previous cities. Or, Spurrier could become another Dave Campo with a bit more flair. But, though I never said the Redskins would have ownership over the Cowboys this coming season, an honest realization that Spurrier is not as good a coach today as any in the division doesn't diminish the balancing and perhaps tipping fact in our favor that other than safety and tight end the Redskins are better at every position on the football field both in terms of starting ability and reserve strength than Dallas is. Whether that translates into ownership of the Cowboys this year or not I can't say. I can say you're right that Spurrier could prove to be a liability. Of course, I've not yet heard you say your lack of talent -- talent that on the whole is far below that of any team in the division -- may prove to be the same for you. Feel free to join me in waking up anytime you feel like it Ken. I guess you missed the point art. See, you so confidently said that the only places the Cowboys were better than the Redskins was at TE and S and possibly RB. Well, I just wanted to point out that our coach clearly is Superior to yours. I am granting you your misguided notion that you have SoOOOOOOO much more talent than the Cowboys. I am merely taking was is so obvious and making it an undisputable point. Sure, Spurrier could show this season that he actually understands what it takes to win in the NFL. He just didn't give me any indication of it last year. We are also clearly supperior at FB where we will start Richie Anderson, a former pro bowler. Yes, FB is a seperate position than HB in case you were wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 How could anyone talk so badly about a coach who goes 7-9 his first time in coaching in the NFL. That is hilarious. Please explain to me how Spurrier is the worst coach in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ken, I wouldn't give that all-so-coveted coaching advantage to the Cowboys THIS year. Parcells, for all his abilities, is still a first year HC for the Cowboys. Spurrier is in his second year here. So while Spurrier may not have Parcells' pedigree, he has a better grasp of his team, and is further along in his plan. Most of us assume that Parcells WILL turn the Cowboys around, but predicting the Cowboys to go 5-1 in the division this year is just silly. Plain and simple. I can only assume Angus was attempting to give back some of the shock value he felt when someone else predicted a 2-14 Cowboy finish, because otherwise such a prediction form an otherwise reasonable poster makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 as very well maybe known I am an avid cowboy fan and though I think we have more talent than the past few years, I don't think that we are going to end up with a record better than 5-11 and if the chips fall the wrong way then 4-12 and if they fall the right way then 6-10 are possibilities. Part of this due to the new offensive system being brought about by Parcells. this is the third season in a row with a new offensive system and as you may also know I am a big proponent of continuity. I had pointed this out to the redskins fans in the past when they were use to counting their chickens in pre-season with their off season additions. I think the dallas offense is due to struggle again, obviously due to question marks at QB and RB, and the new system being installed. Barring injuries to the offensive line that was suffered last year, they may be better statistically, but that remains to be seen (or played out in the field) Obviously, once again the defense needs to carry the dallas team, and though they may have lost Noble, its not a great loss in that his replacements Nix and Meyers shared significant playing time and combined had better statistics than Noble (actually Myers had better statistics than Noble). so I am not sure if that's such a big loss. Also, given that they drafted a highly talented CB we have the right to be just as excited if not more excited than the skins were when they drafted smoot since newman's ratings were suprior to smoot in the drafts. They also brought in another LB from the superbowl championship team that brings experience and winning attitude required for success. Though they may statistically have ended up in the middle of the pack defensively last year, from a fans view it was obvious that the team had given up the last 5 games and some of the players specially on the offensive side of the ball were going through the motions rather than playing as they should have. The coach and the owner clearly losing the team and the players. Situation not unlike what the skins went through in 2000 when a team that was picked to win the superbowl by majority of the media and probably all the redskins fans, greatly underachieved and though they still had a chance to make the playoffs towards the end, clearly they did not play to the advertised potential of the team to do so. It would not surprise me to see the dallas defense back in the top 10 by the end of the season as they had done the two years before last. Offensively Parcells has always had strong runnign teams and it seems once again he is doing the same thing in dallas. He probably has more trust in Hambrick than either of the QBs and will build the offense at least for the short term around the running game. Although Art may harp on the Adams signing, he was rated as one of the top FAs this offseason by many publications. Though that ranking does not accuratley portray the actual talent, you are limited to what the market offers and the going rate for the players in the market for their respective positions. Dallas could have drafted a LT in the draft, but given they had many other nees, it seemed logical to keep a player like Adams to fill a need position than trying to draft for it and leaving another need position open (specially since the FA didn't have quite the same talent in filling the CB spot than the LT spot). I tend to side with Parcells in his decision to resign Adams, given his track record and his experience in finding talent than anyone on this board or in the media. But toi sum it up, imo dallas probably is a better team than last year, though in their final record they may not show that given the tough schedule they have to play. Why are they better? obviously parcells. Not so much that he will change eveyrthing overnight, but he brings an attitude of winning and discipline to a team that lacked it for the past few years. Dallas lost five games last year by 4 points of less. This indicates that they may have been competetive team but mistakes killed the team. if nothing else will be accomplished this year, I beleive mistakes will be cut down significantly and that should help the team tremendously. on another point, I think a lot of this head to head, position by position comparisons don't accomplish much given that a superiorly talented team according to most in this board, was consistantly beaten by the cowboys over the past few years, having finally broke a long streak in a game that dallas had clearly given up on the season and still struggling to beat them in a mistake filled game by the cowboys team. Art, you did similar head to head comparisons with the eagles, giants, etc last year and it really didn't accomplish much. I know its "Your thing". You love these head to head, position to position comparisons to establish superiority, yet you don't compare the position on the offense against the opposing position on the defense since offensive players don't play against offensive players and the same for defensive players. I don't quite understand what you try to accomplish by these comparisons given that football is not just about individual talent but about team. Obviously the less talented teams have won superbowls in the past few years so talent alone is clearly not sufficient for winning and winning championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ken, I was very respectful of Parcells in my post. I also know that despite that respect, Parcells isn't a position on the football field. He's a coach. I'm a coach guy. I think coaching matters much more than players in many respects. And, due to that, I wouldn't know exactly how superior talent may prove to benefit the Redskins in light of how much weight I give a coach. But, that's somewhat meaningless. The problem is you attempted to assert I made statements I never made and I spanked you on it so don't do that and you're cool with me . Shawn, Individual talent doesn't always translate into collective achievement. The Redskins have fallen below their talent level for several years in terms of record. Last year is somewhat arguable given the QB position and problems, especially early, on the offensive line. In any case, at no point have I made a statement that having so much more talent thant he Cowboys makes anything certain. It is also true that I don't find the Cowboys to be an improved team talent wise. Losing Smith, Hardy, Noble and even Zellner if you factor in depth requirements, weakens you and you've not upgraded any of those positions either from within or without in your signings. I actually like Young and didn't like Page so even granting an advantage there, that's pretty much the only spot you can say you know you've directly improved your ability at during the offseason. Even Thomas for Anderson is perplexing to me as Thomas was a brute blocker and Anderson is more of a nudge guy who catches a few balls. Different roles in the respective offenses matter and Anderson should be a bigger part of this offense for the Cowboys than the fullback was in last year's offense for the Cowboys. In any case, not only can you not claim any real talent improvements unless you count on and expect sure hits with draft picks Newman, Whitten and Johnson. In that case, if they are atypical rookies, you probably are better. Even if all three eventually become all-Pro players, they are not generally superior as rookies to many vets. But, the real difference is you have Parcells who despite his many faces as a coach in allowing his offense to adjust, has always had a very similar type of defense. That is simply not something you have and Parcells may not be patient enough to allow Zimmer to use it how HE's used to. Perhaps he will as he's a very fine coach. You and I had a conversation a year ago at this time in which you confidently declared the additions of Hardy, Williams and Glover would make you a more aggressive, better defense. I told you then that you'd likely decline in performance due to changes in style and guess who was correct? I'm curious to see how Parcells plays his pieces in Dallas. Especially so because so many of those pieces are so poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Art, Just a quick reply regarding the five names you mentioned, Smith, Hardy, Noble, Zellner, Thomas. I may agree with you on Smith since Hambrick and Wiley are unknown quantities at this time and smith was proven back who can still produce. But clearly smith was on his way down at this point in his career. Better looking into the future than the past. So for the short run (this coming year) dallas apparantley on paper has less talent in the RB position. I disagree on Noble and Zellner since Zellner didn't bring anything to the table than the player replacing him (I believe its Evans or Weathrington). Zellner was not planned to be resigned and no attempt was made to resign him, and Evans should be able to fill the rotation role that zellner played last year. As indicated Noble had lesser statistics than Nix and Myers combined and at some point you have to let the players who you have been developing into your rotation such as Stewart, Blade and Weatherington. You may argue your point, because we lost Noble that the depth is not as experienced. But its not as big a loss as one might think. Though the same thing can be said about skins losing gardner on defense and replacing him with Noble. Gardner was the defnsive MVP for the skins last year and they lost him, so the skins are defensively much less talented than last year from starters perspective? I think starters talents are more important than depth. Though depth is important in case of injury and for rotation, the team is not normally built around depth's abilities and talents. You build around your starters talents. I am sure the skins are not devising schemes to take advantage of Lott or Bauman's abilities but those of champ baily and Fred Smoot. The same grade and level of improtance should not be placed on losing depth as losing a starter. I think rather comparing the talent of who is replacing the starter is the key. We replaced Hardy with Singleton and I think that is a wash at this poitn, since it was a coaching decision based on what they were trying to accomplish. Hardy perhaps on the downside of his career replaced by a player from a superbowl team. Will that work out? we have to wait and see. Thomas would have been cut from the team last year if it wasn't for the injury to Jamar Martin. Dallas wanted to dump him last year since he had become more of a liability in the offense than addiing the "Crushing Blocks" that you refer to. I would take Anderson over thomas even at this stage of Anderson's career. I think even at this point Anderson is more talented. Martin though may not have played in the NFL was a full back in college and played the position. Thomas was a converted LB from the Gaily era. Now with respect to having added talent, though I understand the draft picks from this year can generally be discounted, but they are at least on paper more talented than what we had before. I am not looking just at this year but also down the line. Same thing the skins did in years past and many skins fans are doing again with addition of Jacobs (calling the skins WR trio the best in the NFL without Jacobs playing a down, though I know you have been cautiously optimistic in your posts). and I thought its pretty funny throwing that last Jab at the end ("so many poor pieces"). I think having players like Glover, Ross, Williams (and at least on paper Newman) is not that bad of a group to start with on defense. Having supporting talent like singleton, coackly ,woodson and ellis also is not that bad. though offensively we are less talented, but having Allen and bryant is good though Allen is towards the end of his career. I think galloway, glenn could be quite productive given a decent QB. We may not have quite the talent on the line as the rams or the skins but gourde showed a lot of promise and young is a proven talent and though you knock adams he may excel in parcells system that emphasizes power running. adding a jason whitten and jamar martin to the mix though both need to prove it on the field at least provide more talent on paper than years past. which points to the most two important positions and that's QB and RB and that's where we need to make the leap to be able to make the leap as a team. We may not be as talented as some of the other teams in the league but I doubt if we are towards the bottom. I would put us at this point in the middle or slightly below. I think coaching makes a world of difference in using the talent properly and I doubt if you will argue with me on that point having gone through norv, schotty and now having the coach that all of you seem to love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 the value in Brandon Noble is not the statistics he puts up, but in the statistics he allows the DT next to him to put up Noble is solid against the run and plays a disciplined game. That's the perfect complement to a Glover or a Dan Wilkinson that likes to free lance more and apply pressure up the field. I agree on Zellner. To me he is a troublemaker and a total zero on the field. The Cowboys drafted him because of his links to the coaching staff from school, but showed little. He did start 14 games in 2001 for Dallas, but the Cowboys D was horrible that year. In the offseason the Redskins have improved themselves at WR, OL, CB, K and KR/RB. The growth of Ramsey leads me to believe the team has improved at QB as well. Going into the offseason, those were the major question marks on the team. Yes, we could use a bona fide in his prime punter. We could also use a tight end that can catch a football. Depth at safety could be better and at DE as well. But one could find similar holes in even the best teams from last season The Skins have made major strides. Dallas may very well have done the same. Newman may turn out to be the next great corner in the NFC. My problem is on the veteran side, the Cowboys didn't do that much to increase the experience factor and ability of the 2003 team to get off the ground running. Rookies and younger guys take longer to hit their strides. You now have a very young and unstable pairing at qb without a clear starting candidate, a fluid situation at running back and on the offensive line. On defense the secondary is very talented but very young. Edwards and Newman may be a very good pairing in time, but in 2003 I could see teams take advantage of 24 and 22 year old starters. The linebackers are ho-hum. The defensive line, outside of Glover, also seems solid but unspectacular. I just don't see where the depth of talent is on this team. You can name individuals like Roy Williams or Larry Allen or Glover who could play for anybody, but there are also a group of guys penciled in as starters that could be backups anywhere else. That to me says a sub .500 record in 2003, even with the best coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerm Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Art, Thomas was a horrible player. He did nothing well and I doubt even his agent would agree with you about him. I know you are not a big fan of Ellis, but he is a very good player. Glover is a better DT than any that the Skins have. Other than that, I agree with a lot of what you say. The Boys need an infusion of talent. I dont see any way they get to 8-8 unless the schedule turns out easier than it looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Shawn, There's a reason Noble started for Dallas and neither Nix nor Myers did. It has nothing to do with stats. Defensive line isn't always or even routinely measured by stats. Dan Wilkinson was as dominating a lineman as there was in football for 10 or 11 games under Marty, but that didn't always translate into big statistical games because of how he was asked to play. Only a Cowboy fan could make a straight-faced case that the guys not good enough to play ahead of Noble for two years are somehow better. Again, there was a reason he was your starter. I'm not crazy about Noble. I like him for what he brings certainly and I also liked Myers as a reserve for us had we got him, but, to pretend Nix or Myers are suitable replacements just shows the lengths you have to go to create fictional talent improvements to make straight what the Cowboys have done in the offseason. You're not better on the defensive line. You're weaker in the starting group. You're weaker in reserve. You've weaker behind that line at linebacker, and it's stunning to actually consider Hardy and Singleton as a relative push in your mind today when at this time a year ago Hardy was better than Arrington. You remember, don't you, this delightful passage you graced us with last year, don't you? Hardy was a pro bowl player producing double digit sacks .... arrington hasn't reached his level of production...he may do that this year...but not yet....hardy is coming off knee surgery...so I can give you arrington being slightly better than hardy.....only due to hardy's injury.....if the injury doesn't hinder hardy then he is as good or better than arrington....I am sure ALL skins fans will disagree because GAWD knows arrington is the best ever lb who played football and a sure HOFer.... You and other Cowboy fans produced that gem and other fascinating and frightening footall assessments in the following thread: http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12754&perpage=15&display=&highlight=Hardy%20Arrington&pagenumber=3 Lucky for us you have no actual knack for recognizing talent or ability because if half of what you said happened to be true, I'd be depressed most of the year. Conversely, almost everything I say is true, which is why you may be fighting with denial the depression, I can't say. Let me help you out on Singleton though. He sucks. He's not a push for Hardy. He's not probably even as good as Antonio Pierce who's on our bench very deeply. He's fine depth. He's not young. He didn't do much in his chance as a starter. Now, of course, he's yours, and he's a push for Hardy who, according to you, is nearly so good as Arrington. High praise through the backdoor for Singleton. Your defense is not only lesser in tems of talent overall, but also lesser in terms of fit and direction for your head coach. If Newman is a true sudden lock down corner a lot of this can change. But, he's not that yet, is he? For the record, I never said the word crushing along with Thomas so who did you quote when you quoted me? I said Thomas was more of a brute blocker than Anderson. That's true. And that fit for the type of offense you ran last year. This year I said I imagine thing may be different. In any case, there is something you have that I sometimes wish I had and I wish other Redskin fans had. To a Cowboy fan all that's required for complete and appreciative respect for their ability is the Cowboy uniform. Nothing more. Singleton suddenly is a top guy like Hardy was. Ross is a building block already. Bryant is an emerging stud. Redskin fans seem to actually be capable of loving the team without such uniform and often silly love of each player. We have openly questioned Gardner and Smoot. Ignoring factors that may actually make each look better than they are. We've long despised our safeties, from Richard, to Shade to Terrell. We have been able to find ourselves aware of weaknesses on the interior offensive line and we've been able to wonder at our lack of defensive line picks over the years. Meanwhile, every year is like opening a present never seen before to a Dallas fan. Every year, no matter how many 5-11s you string, you're on your way. You're better. Lesser bench players are now superior to your starters. Bench players who are gone were never coming back because a lesser bench player is ready. We told you all last year about what to expect. We told you about how Hutch would surpass Carter. We told you that Emmitt was dying and needed to be spelled some if Campo had the will to do it. We told you that your defense would actually decline and why. We told you Westbrook wasn't your savior at corner. Hell, we may have been uniformly correct on every single thing we discussed last year. And you may still be looking to have an offseason point that isn't as bad. Perhaps this offseason will go better for you as a fan because it's certainly gone less well for your team. You just don't know it yet. Nerm. Assuming I don't disagree that Glover is better than any tackle we have, the fact is, we have the next two best, if not the next THREE best. You're right, I don't like Ellis. Despite your appreciation of him, he's not even as dangerous a player still as Bruce Smith who is our No. 3 defensive end at the moment as Wynn and Upshaw are starting. Your defensive line, however, is not as good as a starting four as ours and you certainly lack depth. Hell, a legitimate debate could be initiated by saying that Smith, Zellner, Haley and Cowsette are on par with your STARTING line and those guys are presently projecting as our reserves. We don't need to go there as it would be subjective, but the point is, you aren't even close. Your line wasn't good last year and you've not gotten better in the offseason. I do appreciate that little else I've said is troubling to you because little else I've said should be given the relative lack of punch I've attached. I think you'll end up being my favorite offseason Cowboy fan though. Already you agree with me more rapidly than your brothers showing a far greater willingness to attach yourself to the truth and I like that in a Cowboy fan . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Glover is a superior pass rusher, he is not necessarily a great two way DT. Noble was the perfect complement, a run stuffer that doesn't have the athleticism to get upfield and apply pressure. In my mind he is again a good complement for Wilkinson, who also has the ability to get upfield as a DT. Myers is a hard worker but is a tweener. I think he just lacks the size and durability to play inside at DT on a full-time basis. Overall, I would have to say the Cowboys defensive line has been a disappointment in terms of big name guys. Ellis and Ekuban were #1 draft choices yet I haven't seen either one in the pro bowl. The Cowboys are in a position somewhat similar to the Skins. They have one established rusher (Glover for D, Smith for WASH) and a group of complementary players that are solid but unspectacular. The Skins have a better group of linebackers and a pair of corners with proven ability at the NFL level. That is what will make the Skins defense better in 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Art, Art! You're living in the past. Your evaluation of players and their "talent" is based on what you know of the players' past performances, which may or may not be of the same quality this go-around even if you have correctly appraised their real contributions in the past. That is why I am willing to indulge you early regarding your puffed up picture — on paper — of the talent of Redskins and your devaluation of the talent of the Dallas team. Neither of us is in a position to truly evaluate the talents of this year's players for either team, or to measure the teams' abilities to overcome indigestion from new "talented" victuals. These early projections may be fun, but they are empty. After a few games down the road "talent" evaluations for this year's players will make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Angus Dallas 7 wins: 1 Arizona 1Detroit 2 Washington 2 Giants 1 Philidelphia For some reason i just dont see Dallas sweeping us this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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