Sporting News NFC East Predictions

[AJWatson3]

from ESPN Insider:

"The defensive line did help shut down the run well last year, giving up 3.8 yards per rush. Only Baltimore gave up fewer yards per carry than that. But applying pressure to the quarterback was another story. The Cowboys were second to last in sacks with 24, and all they've done on the offseason is lose Brandon Noble.

Granted, Noble didn't have a sack last year, but the man replacing him, Michael Myers, had only one. And the people that will now backup up the defensive tackle spot, John Nix, Willie Blade and Daleroy Stewart are inexperienced and have nary a quarterback drop between them. Despite that, the Cowboys neither drafted a defensive lineman nor added one in free agency."

we'll use Noble to stop the run!

[eboyer]

Typical of a Cowboy fan, Eboyer, but, perhaps you can help me out in understanding you better.

I would be happy to help you out if you can show enough maturity to not make generalizations of Cowboys fans while asking me to clarify my post.

Why is it that in order to make a point you have to write it in fiction first? See, the Cowboys did want Noble back. Parcells said so. The Cowboys Insiders reported it so. Look here:

http://cowboys.theinsiders.com/2/93837.html

The only fiction I see is you trying to claim interest = contract. Noble was told to shop around because the demands his agent gave were not in line with his worth. Nothing on that link suggests we gave him a formal contract proposal. If we truly were interested we could of certainly outbid the Skins for him giving our respective cap situations.

In fact, you not only tried to sign Noble back, but you offered him about the same contract. Is it sad or more pathetic that you know so little about your own team?

This is a good example of fiction as again no contract was ever offered.. We would of loved to have Noble back around the minimum but this is not the same thing as offering him a minimum contract now is it? Perhaps you are aware of how things can sour once a player is told to shop around. It is no surprise that he signed with you for slightly more then minimum without giving us a chance to math. It also would explain his sour grapes statement of playing for a winner when signing with a non-playoff team. It is a big blow to ones pride to be told they are not worth as much as they think they are.

I'm reminded of a statement I recently said after reading your position. That statement is, "Only a Cowboy fan could make a straight-faced case that the guys not good enough to play ahead of Noble for two years are somehow better."

Again with the stupid generalizations? You seem to have a reading comprehension problem as I never said one was better. I suggested they were equal and Noble got the start but actually shared snaps equally.

The reason Noble started and played the majority of snaps is because he was superior than the guys behind him.

Majority of the snaps? How dishonest of you to sneak that in rather then challenge my initial statement. I have deleted the rest of your juvenile rant as I have little interest in trading barbs. I would enjoy continuing this discussion but only if you try to show a little more maturity and put some thought into what I have actually written.

[flashback]

That link seems to indicate that Noble was asking for $2.5M and the Cowboys were "proposing" $1.5M. I don't see how the difference between offering or proposing illustrates your point that the Cowboys had no or limited interest in bringing back Noble. According to KFFL, Noble's deal with the Redskins was for 4 years, about $7M. I think one of the reasons Noble chose the Redskins offer was the length of the contract. As far as I know, the Cowboys never "proposed" anything longer than a 1 year deal.

Again, I'm having trouble seeing the relevance of any of this. Noble started for the Cowboys for 2 years. He did a great job. He'll be an asset for the Redskins. The drop-off from Noble to the eventual starter for 2003 may not be all that significant. We won't know til the season starts. But clearly, until one of these guys steps up, the Redskins have a better NT than the Cowboys do.

But I'll take Glover over BDW any day. :laugh:

[shawn]

Art,

calm down and drink some cold water, you seem quite upset. It is in your mind that Noble was significantly better than his back ups. I am not sure how you find contradiction in the first two sentences as you alluded to. From you perspective Noble's contributions were larger that they really were, from many cowboys fans perspectives, they were not as large as you make them to be.

Again you mention the starting and as I have alluded to "Starting" vs "Contributing" and they are not the same. as I mentioned, I am not discounting Noble's contributions to the team, and in fact I did say that we need to replace those contributions. My point is that its not going to be as difficult as you make it to be. Its a lot easier for dallas to repalce Noble's contributions than it is for the skins to replace Gardner's.

Noble much like Nix started in the same role. Playing backup, practicing and even going to NFL europe (Nix was not sent to NFL europe). He worked his way into the starting lineup. The thought in the dallas coaching camp is that Nix will be able to replace Noble in being the role player to occupy linemen, play the run and maybe maybe not rack up tthe stats,.... but then again that's not all there is to DT spot as you said. Are they going to be right? I am not sure and niether could you be so sure. Did we lose debth. YES. did we lose his contributions? YES. will we be able to replace it? the coaching staff think so.

as I mentioned, noble is what noble is. he is not dominating. he is nto pocket collapsing. he is not a sack machine. he is a role player that will do what's asked of him for the team. he is a great locker room presence and good character guy who comes to work with his lunch pale each day. The skins did get a good character player. again, How much did leaving Noble diminish the cowboys? not as much as you think. did it diminish the cowboys? yes it did. I don't see a contradiction there.

now you alluded to Zimmer starting Noble and I had explained that before. Zimmer's philosophy was to stop the run first and then lets think about the pass. Due to lack of talent in the DB field specially early in the year, the Safties had to provide help to the DBs instead of helping out in run defense. the run defense greatly concerned Zimmer and he had the DL and LBs think run first. Noble was a better run stopper than Myers and better than Nix(again you notice I am not arguing than noble was not better than Nix), thus he started ahead of them. But he did share a lot of snaps with Myers and Nix. again. what's the loss for the cowboys in difference in talent between Nix, Myers and Noble? that's the point of argument.

everyteam loses players in the offseason which they have to offset. Obviously they either get someone better, lesser or the same talent level (as good as these attributes can be measured). overall each team according to how they operate and other factors decide the over talent loss and gain for the team. in some positions they get better and in others they get worse. they factor in the difference between the player they get and the player that left. if the player they get is lesser then how much and can they replace it..short term and long term...

believe me, I think Parcells knows he needs to get another dominating DT or DE to take that next leap with the defense. its just that Noble was not going to be that player. so if you are going to get that elite player and Noble is going to be relegated to back up and thus his contributions lessened even more ...then why pay more when you can have a player slightly lesser take his place without much difference....

same philosophy for the skins...they let davis go and they think betts and canidate can replace him, though statistically you can't prove that....instead they gained in the WR and OL....overall their offense is better since the difference between davis and his eventual replacements is much less than the players added to the OL and WR group.....

also, don't go digging up past posts, you had made some claims yourself that you might want to retract....

[AJWatson3]

and now for art's response....

[Tom [Giants fan]]

Ken,

Keith Hamilton has more than proved himself. Even coming off of an injury, until he proves he can't do it anymore he is definitely to be included. Dixon hasn't done much but as a number three or four receiver, he is a serious deep threat. Tim Carter did tear his achilles but from the reports I've read, he is just as fast as he was. Levens is a proven veteran and with the role he has, he is going to contribute a lot on short yardage.

These guys aren't vital but they are necessary pieces and they are proven veterans.

[Redskinswhoopass]

Yeah for some reason i think we match up well with the AFC EAST, all expect for Dallas. To me it seems the AFC East play each other really tight but i think Skins Eagles and Giants can beat them. WAIT, just had a brain FART!

Remember when we beat the COLTS 44- to something and GUS FEROTTE came in and threw 2 td's To good old James Jackson we were 4-12 i think , but really liked that game.

And This year what better way to start the season then us kicking the JETS ASS, with all of there old players. Prediction for game. Skins 31 Jets 10.

[eboyer]

Again, I'm having trouble seeing the relevance of any of this. Noble started for the Cowboys for 2 years. He did a great job. He'll be an asset for the Redskins. The drop-off from Noble to the eventual starter for 2003 may not be all that significant. We won't know til the season starts. But clearly, until one of these guys steps up, the Redskins have a better NT than the Cowboys do.

Interesting. The majority of Cowboy fans claim they could not see a measurable difference between Nix and Noble while they were playing in the same exact scheme.

Now Noble is leaving to a new scheme and Nix is staying within his. You don't see any question mark in Noble being required to change schemes? In your mind it is guaranteed that he plays as well as before and you see no bias in that assessment.

I would still argue that the players are a virtual wash. IF we want to get nitpicky about it then Noble might not be able to do what is expected of him in the new scheme (always questions with the unkown) so a slight edge might go to Nix.

But I'll take Glover over BDW any day. :laugh:

Agreed!

[AJWatson3]

i think the reason noble will adapt well is because he is filling the same roll with the redskins... everyone knows he isn't there to rush the passer or collapse the pocket.. he will free up BDW to do that!

[shawn]

everyone is still waiting for BDW to break out. he has has some really good DT's next to him like Gardner and Stubblefield and he has failed to Break out, now with Noble BDW is going to be great!! that doesn't make sense. This is not a knock on Noble but he is not in the same class as Gardner or Stubblefield. I know I know there was that 10 or 11 game stretch a couple of years back that supposedly he was the most dominant defensive paleyr in the league. lets forget about everyother game in his career and concentrate on that stretch.

[AJWatson3]

BDW has had some good seasons... not #1 draft pick good, but solid nonetheless. i don't think that BDW has played alongside someone who does what Noble does... it should free him up to go one-on-one with an interior lineman... plus he is supposed to be in the best shape of his career... that can only help!

you just keep hoping that glover isn't hurt by nobles departure...

[flashback]

Originally posted by eboyer

Now Noble is leaving to a new scheme and Nix is staying within his. You don't see any question mark in Noble being required to change schemes? In your mind it is guaranteed that he plays as well as before and you see no bias in that assessment.

I hope not. Newsflash, cheerleader, I'm a Cowboy fan.

I guess that puts me in the minority of Cowboy fans who do see a difference between Noble and Nix. That's an interesting point about the scheme changing. Noble's a high effort guy, but if you don't put him in a position (the G-C gap) where teams have to double team him, they won't. But Edwards knows him pretty well, and will probably adjust the scheme a little bit to take advantage of the things Noble does well.

Nix had a very solid showing late in his rookie year, but didn't seem to build on that last year (IMO). Thats why a) BP would have taken Robertson over Newman if available, the Cowboys re-signed Myers, c) the Cowboys "proposed" a deal to Noble to keep him, and d) the Cowboys are still looking at vet DTs to bring to camp, in case none of the kids step up.

Personally, I think the front-runner for the job at this point is Myers, not Nix. The Cowboys will have to change their scheme to take advantage of Myers quickness/mobility instead of just trying to eat up OL the way we did with Noble. So don't be so sure that Noble is the only guy who's going to be playing in a different scheme this year.

[The Evil Genius]

flash...did the Boys retain their DC when Parcells was hired? I forget already...

If not...doesnt this mean that they will have to all learn a new system?

[flashback]

Yeah, Parcells interviewed and retained Zimmer. Supposedly loves the guy, too.

Story that may interest only Cowboy fans:

Parcells left the Ranch earlier this week to go on vacation, and it was killing him to be out of the office, because he wouldn't be able to check the waiver wire every day, etc. So Zimmer told him "I'll be in my office everyday, if you need anything, just call." which made Bill feel a lot better. No truth the rumor that Bill has asked his son-in-law "Why can't you be more like Mike?"

[Ken]

Originally posted by Tom [Giants fan]

Ken,

Keith Hamilton has more than proved himself. Even coming off of an injury, until he proves he can't do it anymore he is definitely to be included. Dixon hasn't done much but as a number three or four receiver, he is a serious deep threat. Tim Carter did tear his achilles but from the reports I've read, he is just as fast as he was. Levens is a proven veteran and with the role he has, he is going to contribute a lot on short yardage.

These guys aren't vital but they are necessary pieces and they are proven veterans.

Tom,

I agree that the "Hammer" has proved himself in this league. My only concern is if he will be able to come back from the achillies injury at his age. With that question mark(along with the drug idictment), he may be a cap casualty in training camp.

Dixon and Carter are both fast but I don't know that they have done much to warrant being mentioned in the same breath as Collins, Toomer, Shockey, and Strahan. Get my point?

As far as levens goes, you said it yourself, he is basically a role player and does not belong in the same sentence as the guys i mentioned.

I do agree that the Giants are talented, just don't agree with those guys being included.

[Skinster]

Originally posted by Tom [Giants fan]

Funny, I could swear that the Giants have quite a bit of talent on both sides of the ball themselves. Oh well, I guess I just dreamt that the Giants have Barber, Collins, Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey, Carter, Dixon, Levens, Mitchell, Strahan, Allen, Petersen, Short, Jones, Barrow, Hamilton, and Griffin on their team. My bad.

Tom, Your Kung-Fu..... is pretty good!!!:box:

I just feel that our tallent level has been soooo upgraded on offence... especially compared to last years team!! We had an offensive line that had to many holes, a WR core that had a new sysyem to learn & a running back that did not fit the system.. I wont even go through the QB situation

All these areas have been addressed and filled with some major tallent... We have a QB that has had over one year in the same system, a WR core that maybe one of the tops on paper in the NFL!! RB's that are proven & a offencive line that is just plain nasty.... So when I compared Giants games form last year & saw what we had then and what we have now I get a warm feeling inside :cool:

I hope the Skins/Giant games, will prove to be the best ever!!!:notworthy

Skinster!!!

Skin 4 Life

[JimboDaMan]

For a number of years now the Redskins have been a team that played a bit below their talent level. Every year there's been a game or two they outplay their opponent, yet lose on the scoreboard. That's normal, all teams do that occasionally. But the Skins have not been able to balance that by stealing wins where they deserved to lose. Until they show me that I have trouble picking them higher than 9-7 at best.

[Art]

Originally posted by eboyer

Interesting. The majority of Cowboy fans claim they could not see a measurable difference between Nix and Noble while they were playing in the same exact scheme.

Now Noble is leaving to a new scheme and Nix is staying within his. You don't see any question mark in Noble being required to change schemes? In your mind it is guaranteed that he plays as well as before and you see no bias in that assessment.

I would still argue that the players are a virtual wash. IF we want to get nitpicky about it then Noble might not be able to do what is expected of him in the new scheme (always questions with the unkown) so a slight edge might go to Nix.

Couple of points, Eboyer. First, no, I don't see any real issue with Noble coming to Washington as has been pointed out because he's going to be doing the same thing he did in Dallas. And, of course, it's not like he's coming to a defensive coordinator who has no idea how to use Noble or what type of player Noble is. George Edwards is from Dallas. He knows something about Noble.

Second, back to the earlier post, the fact remains, Dallas wanted Noble back and offered a similar amount to get him back than what he took to move. The reason is as simple as tri-5-11s make it seem.

[eboyer]

Originally posted by Art

Couple of points, Eboyer. First, no, I don't see any real issue with Noble coming to Washington as has been pointed out because he's going to be doing the same thing he did in Dallas. And, of course, it's not like he's coming to a defensive coordinator who has no idea how to use Noble or what type of player Noble is. George Edwards is from Dallas. He knows something about Noble.

First I appreciate the improved civility in your tone. I did not register to this forum to disrupt discussion or troll around in any manner. I understand as Cowboys and Redskins fans we are "arch enemies" but that shouldn't interfere with a minimal amount of civility.

Secondly I agree. Noble will likely produce just as well with the Skins as he did with Dallas. He will clog lanes, work hard, and say the right things. Heis a nice answer for the skins given the amount of cap money available. He was a great answer for Dallas when they had cap problems too.

The fact remains however that lane clogging, hard working, team players are not that hard to replace and everything I saw showed we already have an equal replacement that was drafted. This is exactly how the draft should work for a team. I see a problem when the skins are not able to develop their own players with these features and have to enter free agency to find one. Who was the last DL drafted by the skins anyway?

Second, back to the earlier post, the fact remains, Dallas wanted Noble back and offered a similar amount to get him back than what he took to move. The reason is as simple as tri-5-11s make it seem.

Again, no contract was offered. When learning what he felt his worth was we told him it was about a million more then we thought he was worth and to shop around. If he could of been had cheap then of course we would of loved to sign him for depth. The cowboys would of liked to have him back. The skins "needed" someone like him signed.

[Art]

Again, Eboyer, the reason for any incivility would be your own blind ignorance. You see, a contract was offered. That's what proposals are. Had Noble liked the proposal, he'd be in Dallas. He didn't. Now, why he didn't can range from getting more money in D.C. to simply being tired of playing for such a horrible team every year.

What I asked you in my first reply is how come Dallas fans have to write fiction to make what they believe true. It still stands as a legitimate question. The only person who's in doubt about whether Noble was wanted back in Dallas or whether he was offered a contract he wasn't satisfied with is you.

You said, "So why is it that Dallas opted to not even attempt to resign Noble given the cap space they had(have)?" He was offered a deal to resign. That makes your statement false. Feel free, however to demonstrate any link at all that shows he was not given a contract proposal and was told to shop around. That's what you can do to prove you're correct. I've already proven you're not.

As for the improved civility in the first part of this response, the reason is you asked a fairly legitimate question. Your views on whether Nix is an equal replacement are still ludicrous as demonstrated by the superior performance by Noble and the continued STARTING by Noble IN Dallas, but, again, knowing that to a Cowboy fan every bench player they have is at least equal to every starter they no longer have I will have to grin and bear such nonsense for all time.

What I do not have to grin and bear is flatly false statements to support a flatly false premise. You can, however, prove how you are right by showing a single link that says the Cowboys didn't make any effort to resign him. There are lots of links that say otherwise. There are lots of links that say the Cowboys didn't want Zellner. There are links that say they told Myers to look around, and when they lost Noble had to scramble to keep Myers. My guess is you're simply confused rather than outright false. But, that's just a guess.

If you feel like supporting an intelligent observation or opinion you'll be met with kindly words in return. If you continue to not know something and continue to play like you do, you'll continue to be treated the troll.

But, I've already shown one page that expressed that Parcells did want him back. Here's another Dallas article that discusses the exchanged proposals.

http://www.kvue.com/sports/cowboys/021103kvue-cowboys-sc.ad66a0.html

Or, here:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/s/pfw/nfceast2003.html

[eboyer]

Originally posted by Art

Again, Eboyer, the reason for any incivility would be your own blind ignorance.

The only reason for incivility is you chose to act uncivil. To argue otherwise is ridiculous.

Now, why he didn't can range from getting more money in D.C. to simply being tired of playing for such a horrible team every year.

We can rule the last one out. He did sign with the skins who has not seen the playoffs in a while either.

What I asked you in my first reply is how come Dallas fans have to write fiction to make what they believe true. It still stands as a legitimate question. The only person who's in doubt about whether Noble was wanted back in Dallas or whether he was offered a contract he wasn't satisfied with is you.

Again with the generalizations. Art, you are a legend in your own mind, and no, it is not a legitimate question. You want me to explain why all Dallas fans act a certain way when I don't beleive they do act the same way.

You just keep thinking Noble was superior to Nix. Heck I hope you guys are so happy with him that you ignore this position in another draft.

[Om]

Rome wasn't built in a day, eboyer.

This offseason, in addition to becoming way, WAY faster at key positions (L. Coles, Trung Canidate, Chad Morton) we "rebuilt" the offensive line (Randy Thomas, Dave Fiore, Derrick Dockery, et al) and wide receiver corps (Lavaranues Coles, Taylor Jabobs, Patrick Johnson, et al) ... while also "shoring up" the secondary (Matt Bowen, Alex Molden) and, at the very least, "holding the line" on the DL (Regan Upshaw, Brandon Noble, et al).

We would have LOVED to add a young stud DE to chase the passer, no doubt; it remains the team's second most pressing question right behind the maturation of its young QB. It didn't work out this year, though not for lack of trying. But I wouldn't hang your hat on the Skins not being able to apply enough pressure to make the Chad Hutchinson's of the world just a little eager behind center. The Skins still have some capable bodies to throw at you while the LB corps and secondary do their thing.

And an offense far less likely to put the entire burden on the defense's shoulders week after week.

One thing is sure: if a pass-rusher comes available between now and September, we'll make a run at him. And whether that happens or not, we'll be looking that direction come next February.

There .... I know I feel better.

[Art]

Eboyer,

You do appreciate, do you not, that three 5-11s in a row is something substantially less than what the Redskins have done, right? While the Redskins haven't won a ton of games over the same span, what can not be said for them is that they've been horrid. Certainly at times they have, just as at times they've been exceptional and in the end, they've been highly average.

Dallas, conversely, has been horrid. That's what last place teams are. Middle of the road teams are what they are as well. And, according to Noble, he didn't like all the losing down there and when he came here he knew there was less losing being done here at present.

The point though is a proven one. In your mind Dallas, an awful football team capable of three straight 5-11 finishes, somehow has equal players in reserve for every starter they lose. It's an imagination that could make Tolkien proud. But, it's an imagination nonetheless. Nix is not equal to Noble. But, that's only based on superior performance by Noble, the fact that Noble has beaten Nix out for the starting position and the fact that Noble was asked back and the Cowboys wanted him to start again. Evidently the Cowboys felt he was better than Nix.

Your response through it all is that the Cowboys didn't want him back, which is a point that has been proven to be the fiction that it is. So, your thought that Cowboy fans don't create fiction to make valid points is amusing, but, obviously untrue. But, thanks for being a good, solid, stationary target.

[bulldog]

the Cowboys made a mistake in letting Noble get away because he forms the perfect tandem with Glover. He is reliable, hard working and is willing to get in the pits and toil without recognition, while allowing Glover to get the glory rushing the passer.

none of the other players the Cowboys have at DT are as reliable as Noble was.

watch. Glover's stats will be down this season.

and the Cowboys will not be as good against the run.

[shawn]

Art, its funny, I thought that you mentioned a DT's performance can not be measured by statistics, but you contineously refer to Nobles superior performance, just curious to know if that was from his statistical measurement of his performance or from direct observation?.

Also, it was brought up that starting vs. contribution are two different things. the fact is that noble was better than Nix, but by how much is the debate. you think its superior and far ahead, and some cowboys fans think its very very close. the truth lies somewhere in the middle. the fact that myers, noble and nix shared snaps is one tell tale.

The cowboys tried to employ the same strategy that the skins might be employing this year as many skins fans here are mentioning, and that is to use a rotation of 7 guys on the DL to keep them fresh to get effectiveness out of them. If a player was good enough and superior in talent, like sapp, mcfarland, simon or glover then that player would get majority of the snaps, since you wouldn't want them to be sitting on the bench half the time. yet according to skins fans, noble will be rotated in a 7 man rotation along the DL. which means he is not superior in talent (and before you respond, I know you are saying that Noble is superior to Nix and that he is not superior talent in general ) so if a guy doesn't have superior talent and is a role player then really how much difference is there between him and the guys who back him up who shared a great deal of playing time with him?

The reason cowboys wanted to resign noble at lower proce is because he is bigger in size than myers, though myers has better quickness and ability. They are afraid that with myers their DL will be a littel undersized. Parcells wants to rebuild the DL, and he knows that's one key to becoming a dominant defense, without which its tough to be dominant.

another thing is, did you expect Noble to say good things about a team that told him he is not really that good for them to pay him the money he was asking (which by many standards today is not that much money really). He took a parting shot, that's just too obvious. Now if he was a little smarter he would have said he wants to go somewhere, where there is potential or there is a chance for success or something to that effect instead of saying he got tired of losing, since washington has a losing record over the same three year span even though its only by 2 games. There is better potential in washington but they still are 2 games under 500. Its not as bad as the boys, but its still a losing record.

For washington Noble is servicable and role player that given the other players on the team would fit in nicely and not break the bank. It was obvious that washington needed to fill the DT spot but the money went to the offensive side of the ball which had bigger problems. For dallas we don't have quite the LB group, or the experience and Parcells probably wants to rebuild the DL and Noble is not where you start. You already know what he can do and in FA, you can go and get guys like him for about the same price any year that can be servicable for a year or two. Role players either younger but limited in talent or older and winding down.

Question for the skins fans: will noble be used in the same role as he was in Dallas? do the skins run similar DL schemes and defensive schemes in general? will noble be servicable in their schemes? these are not a knock on noble or the defense but just general questions that I was wondering waht the skins fnadom is thinking?