A hunch about Kareem Moore @ SS

[SWFLSkins]

I wouldn't even mind having Horton, Moore and Landry all on the field at the same time on psasaing downs. With Horton in the box to shut down any draws.

Our defense could be nasty this year./

My thoughts exactly, all rangy enough to cover and brutal enough to de-cleat ya.

[Wyndorf25]

People can dump on this FO all they want but you have to stop and reflect on what they have done with our picks. Horton and Moore from last year. Taking Landry over Jaamal Anderson who is a huge bust. Carlos Rogers over Antrel Rolle and Pac-man. Trading up for Cooley out of nowhere. Trading up for Rocky. Sean Taylor over Kellen Winslow. HB Blades in the 6th.

Good point. These successes need to be pointed out from time to time...

[theboomking]

This is a great thread. I like Horton and think he was a great draft pick and will contribute for years, but I hope that his contributions don't come as the starter. He can obviously cover in the flat and short zone, but I don't think his strength is coverage down the field.

If you need evidence that the SS is becoming a thing of the past , you only have to look at Roy Williams. I'm not sure that Horton is any better in coverage than Roy Williams. The difference is, that we have Landry and play a lot of Cover 1, so our second safety isn't as exposed in deep coverage.

I have been a big proponent of trying to draft Mays next year because of the schematic freedom it would give us. Having two safeties that can play center field in a cover-one would allow us to disguise our coverages better and be more creative with our blitz packages.

If Moore is able to step in and play next to Landry, then perhaps he could be that player for us. Horton could then play in our 3 safety packages, running situations etc.

Also, having stone-hand Rogers back there, we could use as many ball hawking players as possible in the other positions. Horton has been pretty decent in producing turnovers, but minus his sprint out to the flat for the INT, Horton's production have all seemed to be more a matter of being in the right place at the right time, then having special hands, coverage ability etc. Again, I'm not trying to knock Horton. I just think his best place in an elite D might be as the #3 safety.

[PlayAction]

Off season glory. There's no point in raving about Moore until you see him play in real games. We all hope that the Skins have plenty of quality depth at S and CB.

[KDawg]

Moore is slightly better in coverage. Horton is a little better against the run. They can both do both. Use them as packages.

Use them in different scenarios. Have them mainly do what they're great at but use them for both coverage and run stopping ability.

Give Landry a rest sometimes and put both on the field.

Use all 3.

Our secondary is going to be very good this year.

[Never4get#21]

horton is awful in coverage even though the people on this board think he is great.

Let us not forget that Horton was a 7th round pick and a ROOKIE last year. Horton only started in 10 games last year and was hurt more towards the end of the season which slowed him down yet he still :

1. He was named NFC Defensive Player of the Week for his efforts against the Saints.

2. In the week 4 game against the Cowpukes he recorded his third interception of the season. That won the game for us.

3. On October 2, he was named NFL Defensive Rookie of the Month.

4. For week 4 he was named Diet Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Week.

5. As a rookie, he finished third among rookies in interceptions behind the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Aqib Talib and Arizona Cardinals Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie.

Weak in coverage? Let's see what he does in his second year. You cant label a guy after one season especially when he didnt start the whole year. :doh:

[Annonymous Source]

I think this is so much better than where we were in the secondary last year. Last year, we had NO depth on paper behind Doughty, with just 2 rookies and no vets. This year we have 3 guys we can rely on at safety to come in and do the job. With both Horton and Moore being from the same draft class, I expect to see the two of them push eachother for years, which can only make both of them better.

With Hall added to the CB core, and with Tryon in his second year along with the newly drafted Barnes, our DB depth has definitely seen a huge improvement(despite losing Springs).

LOL:laugh:

we had the exact same depth last year as this year. :hysterical:

[tml6157]

I have been a big proponent of trying to draft Mays next year because of the schematic freedom it would give us. Having two safeties that can play center field in a cover-one would allow us to disguise our coverages better and be more creative with our blitz packages.

Mays is a physically gifted athlete but is a bit of a risky pick IMO. If he works out and puts it all together he will be an amazing pro player. If this season does not go according to plan and we are picking early in next years draft then you have to go with Eric Berry the S from Tennessee. This kid is flat out phenominal. Think of Ed Reed 2.0 but better. The kid can play CB, FS or SS with ease and be a stud at it!

[Annonymous Source]

Let us not forget that Horton was a 7th round pick and a ROOKIE last year. Horton only started in 10 games last year and was hurt more towards the end of the season which slowed him down yet he still :

1. He was named NFC Defensive Player of the Week for his efforts against the Saints.

2. In the week 4 game against the Cowpukes he recorded his third interception of the season. That won the game for us.

3. On October 2, he was named NFL Defensive Rookie of the Month.

4. For week 4 he was named Diet Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Week.

5. As a rookie, he finished third among rookies in interceptions behind the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Aqib Talib and Arizona Cardinals Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie.

Weak in coverage? Let's see what he does in his second year. You cant label a guy after one season especially when he didnt start the whole year. :doh:

I would agree with you. Horton didnt even strike me as weak in coverage his rookie year, he was just better at attacking the LOS than sitting back reading. He didnt get burned very badly in coverage imo.

[#98QBKiller]

Great thread and I really like Kareem Moore. He showed in preseason and during regular season (Chad Johnson) that he's not afraid to put the big hit on people. Not to mention he has a nose for the ball, at the end of every play he's either making the tackle or he's right there.

[tml6157]

LOL:laugh:

we had the exact same depth last year as this year. :hysterical:

No we dont. We lost Springs (a starter) and drafted Barnes.

2008:

Springs - Always hurt and misses games some point during the season

Rogers - Improved

Smoot - The same

Tryon - A rookie who looked awful in preseason

Torrence - A decent nickel/dime CB

Landry - Our only known good safety

Moore - Injured to start the season

Doughty - playing at an above average level

Horton - a 7th round rookie who no one expected anything from

Hamilton - special teams duty mainly

2009:

Rogers - Still improving

Hall - Motivated and played well for us last season

Smoot - Another year older

Tryon - SHOULD improve year 2 in the system

Barnes - Talented rookie who would have been in the 2nd if not for an injury

Landry - Our stud safety

Horton - The steal of the draft

Moore - completely healthy and making an impact to unseat Horton

Doughty - Coming off an injury all last season.

Ill take 2009 over 2008 anyday!

[gorebd82]

And if Landry is gonna blitz you need SS that can cover the centerfield.

Imo having LL at FS and Moore at SS is like having 2 FS on the field all the time without having to sub in a 'package.'

I agree that Landry is a huge asset roaming centerfield because of his speed, but I just feel that the FS role is limiting his abilities. Remember when he was a rookie, he wreaked havoc coming from different angles. I can't remember which QB he hit, but there was one devastating blitz where he almost took the guy's head off.

That was the role that he was drafted to play because Sean Taylor could be his security blanket. I think that a lot of Horton's success last year was because our system puts the SS in position to make plays due to the FS over top. Now imagine if Landry is getting those fumbles and ints. He has the ability to go the other way.

Moore's skillset gives us the ability to use Landry in that role again. The coaches have said that after Hall, Moore is our best ballhawk. So I interpret that to mean that he can roam the middle just as well if not better than Landry. So if Moore and Landry are on the field at the same time, you don't know if Landry will blitz or maybe we go Cover 2 or send the both deep in a Cover 3 while blitzing the corner. Lots of flexibility in the defense.

My point is that we have a great set of safeties with skillsets that really complement each other. Landry can do it all so don't limit him and make him predictable.

[tml6157]

My point is that we have a great set of safeties with skillsets that really complement each other. Landry can do it all so don't limit him and make him predictable.

I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you that your situation would benefit our defense. IMO it would be hard to attack Moore and Landry on the field at the same time. What people are disagreeing with is moving Landry to SS all the time and make Moore our FS. Id rather do like you said. Once and a while when its not expected, bring Landry on one of his headhunter blitzes and leave Moore drop back to centerfield. Right now I dont believe the SS spot belongs to anyone. Landry is the only one safe right now. I see Moore and Horton being equal right now even though Horton had a great season last year. There are very few people who have earned their right as starters (Portis, Cooley, Samuels, Haynesworth, Fletcher, Landry) Other then that the rest of the spots are open IMO.

[Milkbone Jackson]

I'm glad this was posted. When we drafted Moore I checked some highlights and was impressed.

This guy is a physical, tough, hard-hitting safety.

After all the critisism of our FO, I've always loved how they've coveted safety's that are aggresive and intelligent.

Kareem will be in the starting line-up.

[ZRagone]

I would love to see a Cobra formation as a relatively common package for us honestly.

Landry playing FS with Horton and Moore both playing SS on either side, alternating between none, one, or both in the box

Rogers and D. Hall on the corners

Rocky and London playing the LB spots

Carter, Hanesworth, Monty/Golston, and Orakpo

Would let Orakpo go to DE, would give us some good pass protection, and would hide the lack of true starting LB talent that we have.

[RandyHolt]

Moore can do some damage. Our safeties seems interchangable for the most part. But I have been beating the drums for Laron at strong as much as anyone. Sure its great having a deep ball deterrent, but I always felt someone like Springs could serve that role. Move him away from all the contact which causes his injuries, and get Laron's helmut on the ball 10 times as often. Outside of Rocky, we dont have any hard hats on the line of scrimmage. Since LL at SS is a pipedream, Moore has to step up. Its just so easy to see why we dont force turnovers. Year after year, we have our FS and best turnover machine farther away from the QB than any other team. They take the safe easy pass underneath, we get no picks. We get no pass rush on those shorter routes. Our blitz year after year is always easily picked up. Why does the other team always blitz with ease on us? A million dollar question.

Its was easy to see that Laron is hands down our best blitzer. Now, when we move him up, the entire world knows whats up, and it fails. We need to be more dynamic and not just go Cobra, but rotate them.

Tight man, and move Laron up and let him attack in the position he excels at and was drafted for. Moore is going to have every chance to take that job. Good luck kid.

[KingGibbs]

One of the best threads started on here in quite some time. Kudos to the OP and I'm loving the competition at the safety spot.

[theboomking]

Mays is a physically gifted athlete but is a bit of a risky pick IMO. If he works out and puts it all together he will be an amazing pro player. If this season does not go according to plan and we are picking early in next years draft then you have to go with Eric Berry the S from Tennessee. This kid is flat out phenominal. Think of Ed Reed 2.0 but better. The kid can play CB, FS or SS with ease and be a stud at it!

I initially felt the same way about Berry/Mays. I actually think that Berry's ceiling is higher. It was pointed out to me however that Berry has played largely in a cover 2, and that in his highlight tape, he doesn't have a lot of coverage picks, but has benefitted from a lot of poor throws. He is a bit smaller, and also doesn't seem to be a big hitter except for that blast on Moreno.

Mays on the other hand doesn't seem to be a ball hawk at all. Very few interceptions. What he will have over Berry, is four years of experience in playing in a cover 1 defense, elite measurables that will probably compare to those of Calvin Johnson, and a physicality that Berry lacks.

Berry is flashier and may have a higher ceiling, but I think that Mays has a higher floor, fits our system better, and would really complete our secondary. Imagine a defensive backfield of Hall, Rogers, Smoot/Barnes, Mays and Landry. Now imagine that backfield playing behind a line that generates pressure. My fantasy is that we go all in on D in an uncapped 2010 and line up with :

LDE Peppers/Rob Jackson

3 technique DT Haynesworth/gholston

0 technique DT Griffen/Mongomery or draft pick/FA (Shaun Rogers)

RDE Orakpo/Carter

Sam: Dansby/Wilson

MLB: Fletcher/Blades

Will: McIntosh/Glenn/Thomas

CB: Hall

CB:Rogers

CB:Barnes/smoot

SS:Mays/Horton

FS Landry/Moore

Dansby probably won't be available, but the rest would be possible and would give us a defense with great starters, great depth, multiple pass rushers, beef up front to stop the run and a great secondary.I really think the above lineup could compete on a yearly basis to be as good or better than the 2000 Ravens.

[tml6157]

Moore can do some damage. Our safeties seems interchangable for the most part. But I have been beating the drums for Laron at strong as much as anyone. Sure its great having a deep ball deterrent, but I always felt someone like Springs could serve that role. Move him away from all the contact which causes his injuries, and get Laron's helmut on the ball 10 times as often. Outside of Rocky, we dont have any hard hats on the line of scrimmage. Since LL at SS is a pipedream, Moore has to step up. Its just so easy to see why we dont force turnovers. Year after year, we have our FS and best turnover machine farther away from the QB than any other team. They take the safe easy pass underneath, we get no picks. We get no pass rush on those shorter routes. Our blitz year after year is always easily picked up. Why does the other team always blitz with ease on us? A million dollar question.

Its was easy to see that Laron is hands down our best blitzer. Now, when we move him up, the entire world knows whats up, and it fails. We need to be more dynamic and not just go Cobra, but rotate them.

Tight man, and move Laron up and let him attack in the position he excels at and was drafted for. Moore is going to have every chance to take that job. Good luck kid.

Sean Taylor was leading the league in INTs from the same position before he passed. No reason why Landry couldnt do the same.

Btw this is a great thread. Its such a relief to come and post in threads like this instead of the "lets sign so and so" or "the media hates us" threads like usual.

[tml6157]

I initially felt the same way about Berry/Mays. I actually think that Berry's ceiling is higher. It was pointed out to me however that Berry has played largely in a cover 2, and that in his highlight tape, he doesn't have a lot of coverage picks, but has benefitted from a lot of poor throws. He is a bit smaller, and also doesn't seem to be a big hitter except for that blast on Moreno.

Mays on the other hand doesn't seem to be a ball hawk at all. Very few interceptions. What he will have over Berry, is four years of experience in playing in a cover 1 defense, elite measurables that will probably compare to those of Calvin Johnson, and a physicality that Berry lacks.

Berry is flashier and may have a higher ceiling, but I think that Mays has a higher floor, fits our system better, and would really complete our secondary. Imagine a defensive backfield of Hall, Rogers, Smoot/Barnes, Mays and Landry. Now imagine that backfield playing behind a line that generates pressure. My fantasy is that we go all in on D in an uncapped 2010 and line up with :

LDE Peppers/Rob Jackson

3 technique DT Haynesworth/gholston

0 technique DT Griffen/Mongomery or draft pick/FA (Shaun Rogers)

RDE Orakpo/Carter

Sam: Dansby/Wilson

MLB: Fletcher/Blades

Will: McIntosh/Glenn/Thomas

CB: Hall

CB:Rogers

CB:Barnes/smoot

SS:Mays/Horton

FS Landry/Moore

Dansby probably won't be available, but the rest would be possible and would give us a defense with great starters, great depth, multiple pass rushers, beef up front to stop the run and a great secondary.I really think the above lineup could compete on a yearly basis to be as good or better than the 2000 Ravens.

I really hope that Thomas, Kelly and Davis show what they can do this year because the 2010 draft is STACKED with defensive players. DT has about 5-6 players that are legit first round picks as of right now. Right now our defense can use another DT, DE, SLB, and S. Going after Shaun Rogers is an idea I like. IMO he would excel here where Haynesworth would be the dominant #1 DT and Rogers would not be expected to the anchor of the DL. Both of those big bodies would make it impossible to run and it would make our DE's elite. Im hoping Moore or Horton will make a claim to the SS spot this year so we can eliminate that position.

[gatorskin77]

I think Laron should stay right where he's at, horton-moore pushing each other should make them both better so they should be able to make it harder to throw the short stuff over the middle. Combine that with a much better pass rush and it should = more sacks and or more ints. Landry playing deep makes it almost impossible for teams to go for the homerun ball so moving him imo doesn't make sense, him taking away the deep ball makes everyones job easier

[Xero21]

I really like our safeties. Our FO gets a lot of crap, but Moore and Horton are turning out to be two great late round picks.

It's weird, we seem to draft at our best in the 5th-7th rounds.

[Xero21]

I am of the opinion that Landry should always be the FS. I don't get why people say putting him there wastes his skill set; he can do it all. There's no wasting when you can play either S position extremely effectively.

I always liked Moore too. Maybe he can be the S opposite Landry in obvious passing situations/nickel-dime packages. He could probably cover the TE better than Horton.

[[[ghost]]]

I actually think he'd make an above average FS, not SS. His coverage skills are what he's known for, right?

I still think that on most downs, Landry should be a roaming Safety. It's almost as if the Redskins play with hybrid safeties, unlike anything that has ever been seen before. Leave the corners on an island, your best Safety as a lurking safeguard, and your other safety to help out underneath along side the LBers. Oddly enough, we then use our MLB to drop back and cover the middle. This only demonstrates the athleticism of ourd efenders.

[Ghost of]

I've had the same hunch for the same reasons.

Oh, and your OP was a first-rate presentation.

Agreed. I know darrelgreenie and I have had our share of contretemps but this was a good post and he typically attempts an even-handed manner in presenting his case.