Torture

[Mark The Homer]

Your a sick religious physco....you need help. ... Go get help.

kubstix - you should attack the idea - NOT the person.

It's even in the rules.

Thanks

[Thiebear]

I will append with this:

When there are weekly 60 dead 120 injured in church bombings..

as i read in the quiet elevator going up to the 3rd floor.. i sometimes wonder what we would do in an Israeli / Iraq situation.

Its easy to preach from the quiet confines of our highspeed internet and lazyboy chairs.

[kubstix]

so anyone that doesn't agree with you is a "sick physco" :doh:

Yeah, thats exactly what I'm saying. :doh:

I'm glad you will put religion in front of your family, friends, and your own lives. Sorry, but if that's the case then you are sick, twisted. Waterboarding is performed when the government has significant, proven evidence that the suspect is involved with a terrorist plot. If you can't accept that, that I don't really know what to tell you. They could of removed the finger nails on this sick twisted terrorist and I would still be all for it.

[kubstix]

kubstix - you should attack the idea - NOT the person.

It's even in the rules.

Thanks

I am attacking the idea. But I'm also attacking the religious maniacs as well who put religion in front of their own well being. What will the religious maniacs say when US soil is attacked again?

[Thiebear]

I am attacking the idea. But I'm also attacking the religious maniacs as well who put religion in front of their own well being. What will the religious maniacs say when US soil is attacked again?

Even us atheists know that by default you *HAVE* to put religious ideas in front of your own well being or your doing it wrong!

[SnyderShrugged]

Yeah, thats exactly what I'm saying. :doh:

I'm glad you will put religion in front of your family, friends, and your own lives. Sorry, but if that's the case then you are sick, twisted. Waterboarding is performed when the government has significant, proven evidence that the suspect is involved with a terrorist plot. If you can't accept that, that I don't really know what to tell you. They could of removed the finger nails on this sick twisted terrorist and I would still be all for it.

Sounds more like you have a sick twisted hatred of people of faith.

[TMK9973]

We are the good guys....

Those who are arguing that torture is ok - Have you ever traveled overseas?

I ask because when I do, or meet people from other countries I love to ask them their thoughts on Americans. One thing that is a common thing is that Americans are more patriotic then almost any other country. Not to say people don't love their country elsewhere, they do. But Americans show it more and seem to all think that America is the greatest country in the world (Which we do. I do to).

Then the question is why do we think that. Mostly because we have been told that since we were little. We are the city on the hill. We are the greatest country. We have freedom, but so do others. We have great standard of living, but so do others. We are protected, but so do others. Meanwhile others have better social services....

But we are the still the best. I am always asked to explain more. My answer is always the same.

Because we are the good guys.

Not to say we haven't made mistakes. We have. Not to say we are perfect, we are not. But we ARE the good guys. We have always had a moral line that we do not cross. When we do, it is discovered and those involved are punished.

I'm against torture -But I also am a little bit proud that the Bush administration didn't just do it, they first looked for a way to make it legal.

When we torture - We are less of the good guys. You might think that America can take on the world, but we can't. Not for long. We can only as long as we are on the side of right. As long as we are on the side of good. When we start torturing we lose that. We can no longer say we are the good guys. Then we lose.

everyone here knows that torture is wrong. Many try to justify it, or excuse it, but you know it is wrong. We are America. WE DON'T TORTURE.

[SnyderShrugged]

We are the good guys....

Those who are arguing that torture is ok - Have you ever traveled overseas?

I ask because when I do, or meet people from other countries I love to ask them their thoughts on Americans. One thing that is a common thing is that Americans are more patriotic then almost any other country. Not to say people don't love their country elsewhere, they do. But Americans show it more and seem to all think that America is the greatest country in the world (Which we do. I do to).

Then the question is why do we think that. Mostly because we have been told that since we were little. We are the city on the hill. We are the greatest country. We have freedom, but so do others. We have great standard of living, but so do others. We are protected, but so do others. Meanwhile others have better social services....

But we are the still the best. I am always asked to explain more. My answer is always the same.

Because we are the good guys.

Not to say we haven't made mistakes. We have. Not to say we are perfect, we are not. But we ARE the good guys. We have always had a moral line that we do not cross. When we do, it is discovered and those involved are punished.

I'm against torture -But I also am a little bit proud that the Bush administration didn't just do it, they first looked for a way to make it legal.

When we torture - We are less of the good guys. You might think that America can take on the world, but we can't. Not for long. We can only as long as we are on the side of right. As long as we are on the side of good. When we start torturing we lose that. We can no longer say we are the good guys. Then we lose.

everyone here knows that torture is wrong. Many try to justify it, or excuse it, but you know it is wrong. We are America. WE DON'T TORTURE.

It took me a while to come around, but I see it more like you every day.

Good post

[Johnny Punani]

Can we have fat hairy women rub their hoo ha's all over em, that's torture in my opinion.

That's cause you never had it done...

[Johnny Punani]

Could be.. we celebrate Lincoln's efforts to preserve the Union.

priceless backhand....:notworthy:notworthy

[alexey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy

Read it, learn it, love it.

[Chopper Dave]

Here's the thing with torture; my personal, moral feelings on the subject are basically **** it, cut off their balls and feed them to their children in front of them if it saves American lives. However, there's this little thing called the Geneva convention. Not only did we sign it, we ****ing wrote it. So yes, being the sick twisted son of a ***** that I am, I love the idea of committing horrible, depraved acts against our enemies. In a world without the Geneva convention, I'd suggest they air these acts on pay-per-view and tax that ***** to pay for universal healthcare. But seeing as that we're kinda locked in to the Geneva convention, we can't go against it. IMO, that's why torture is wrong. If we fudge it on enforcing torture laws, what laws are we going to fudge next? We should throw the book at Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, and all of their hivemind underlings who either encouraged or looked the other way on these egregious violations of international law. Not that the law is entirely right, but still, it is the law, and if anyone has to follow the law, it's the government, otherwise they're illegitimate.

[Johnny Punani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy

Read it, learn it, love it.

No Shirt, No Shoes, NO DICE?!?!?!

[Larry]

When we literally have transcripts and video of what he said to his own underlings and his own followers in his efforts to get them to hate America, yes, I take what he said at face value.

So,

Do you believe what George Bush said was the reason we invaded Iraq?

[SnyderShrugged]

Here's the thing with torture; my personal, moral feelings on the subject are basically **** it, cut off their balls and feed them to their children in front of them if it saves American lives. However, there's this little thing called the Geneva convention. Not only did we sign it, we ****ing wrote it. So yes, being the sick twisted son of a ***** that I am, I love the idea of committing horrible, depraved acts against our enemies. In a world without the Geneva convention, I'd suggest they air these acts on pay-per-view and tax that ***** to pay for universal healthcare. But seeing as that we're kinda locked in to the Geneva convention, we can't go against it. IMO, that's why torture is wrong. If we fudge it on enforcing torture laws, what laws are we going to fudge next? We should throw the book at Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, and all of their hivemind underlings who either encouraged or looked the other way on these egregious violations of international law. Not that the law is entirely right, but still, it is the law, and if anyone has to follow the law, it's the government, otherwise they're illegitimate.

I'm confused???

First you go ultra torture, then bash those that waterboarded??

Where do you actually stand?

[Chopper Dave]

I'm confused???

First you go ultra torture, then bash those that waterboarded??

Where do you actually stand?

I thought I made it clear. Maybe not. All-nighters will do that to you.

I'm anti-torture. Not because I think torture is morally wrong, like most of my fellow left-wing socialist superlibs, but because if we do torture, it makes us look like *******s. We can't draft a series of international laws, sign said laws, and then go back on those laws. It completely undermines us. In a vacuum, my opinion is go ahead, pull out their fingernails. Waterboard them, waterboard their mothers, hell, waterboard their pets. But we just don't have the luxury of being able to do that and maintain the shred of legitimacy we have left.

And yes, before someone points it out, I realize that it's the Geneva "conventions." I'm on zero sleep. Cut me some slack.

[Hubbs]

Again a cop out, pretty straight forward question, do you want the terrorist tortured to save your kids life?

Circle One

YES

NO

Hmmm. Seems like you just copped out of my question in the exact same manner. But, hell, as long as you want to continue playing this "Respond to totally outlandish, implausible scenario question with another outlandish, totally implausible scenario question" game....

Let's say we capture a unicorn that wants to build a time machine out of a Delorean and go back in time to kill your parents. We have a Hobbit who can make him talk through extremely painful Hobbit torture. Do you let the Hobbit torture the unicorn to prevent the Delorean-based murder?

[Hubbs]

Yes, its his fault correct. Nobody ever knew a terrorist attack of that magnitude was going to happen on Sept 11th. Bush and Cheney kept this country safe for 8 years after that. How are you even in this forum defending something so ludicrous. It's cool when us americans get beheaded on live television right? Or get our throats slit by a dull knife also on life television right? Waterboarding....OOOOOOOOOOOO. I would still be for torture even if they told me they were ripping finger nails off these guys. Your a sick religious physco....you need help. To actually be sitting in this post and defending torture so save your family and friends lives and to keep them safe is beyond sick. Go get help.

*raises eyebrow*

Seems like you're unaware that Bush had received a briefing a couple months earlier which said Al Queda was planning to attempt an attack on New York sometime in the relatively near future. Also sounds like you're also unaware that the Air Force had actually begun to run practice drills for responding to terrorists using hijacked airplanes to hit skyscrapers before 9/11 took place. Also sounds like you're unaware that I'm not at all religious, just a good ol' agnostic. But most of all, it sounds like you have some serious, serious anger issues.

[Hubbs]

Or that the principle has been enhanced to a degree it is now illogical and self defeating.

He claims to listen and believe what Bin Laden says is plain truth,yet apparently ignores what weakness Bin Laden states he will attempt to exploit here.

I have no idea what mental gymnastics you had to go through to arrive at that conclusion, but I bet the French judge dicked you out of at least half a point.

Hubbs uses a Harry Potter analogy as an example of torture ?

YEP! that helps your argument!!

:hysterical:

I don't think the word "analogy" means what you think it means. Because if it did, you'd understand why I'm laughing at your laughing.

I am attacking the idea. But I'm also attacking the religious maniacs as well who put religion in front of their own well being. What will the religious maniacs say when US soil is attacked again?

Holy crap, I'm not religious. Do you make eleventy billion assumptions about every post you don't like?

So,

Do you believe what George Bush said was the reason we invaded Iraq?

Erm... yes.

I believe that he believed that A) Saddam was in cahoots with Al Queda, and Saddam wanted himself some WMDs. Part of the reason I believe this is because intelligence agents have come out since the invasion who have described how evidence against those possibilities was not always allowed to get to the White House. Did other people in the federal government possibly have a different primary reason? Sure. But did Bush? Not at the time.

[Chopper Dave]

Erm... yes.

I believe that he believed that A) Saddam was in cahoots with Al Queda, and Saddam wanted himself some WMDs. Part of the reason I believe this is because intelligence agents have come out since the invasion who have described how evidence against those possibilities was not always allowed to get to the White House. Did other people in the federal government possibly have a different primary reason? Sure. But did Bush? Not at the time.

It's pretty naive to think that Bush is that impotent in the leadership department and/or stupid.

[Hubbs]

It's pretty naive to think that Bush is that impotent in the leadership department and/or stupid.

Huh? The whole point is that he didn't know about it. I can easily make the same case for how both Bush and Obama are handling the big banks/AIG - they have to get their information from somewhere. They happen to be getting it from high-ranking Treasury/Fed officials, and almost all of them have worked at big banks. Like Hank Paulson, for example, who was CEO of Goldman Sachs before he become Treasury Secretary. And where do you think he's getting his info about Goldman Sachs? Well, if you were the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, what would you do? You'd probably use your contacts at... Goldman Sachs! Which creates a situation in which it is laughably easy for Goldman Sachs to deliver some, shall we say, favorable numbers about itself to justify the government propping up its continued existence, which then make their way to Bush. It's not that he's impotent or stupid. It's that the system delivering information to him is flawed.

And if you believe that a chain of human beings dealing with their own financial future are incorruptable and morally perfect, well, I'd say that's... pretty naive.

[Chopper Dave]

Huh? The whole point is that he didn't know about it. I can easily make the same case for how both Bush and Obama are handling the big banks/AIG - they have to get their information from somewhere. They happen to be getting it from high-ranking Treasury/Fed officials, and almost all of them have worked at big banks. Like Hank Paulson, for example, who was CEO of Goldman Sachs before he become Treasury Secretary. And where do you think he's getting his info about Goldman Sachs? Well, if you were the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, what would you do? You'd probably use your contacts at... Goldman Sachs! Which creates a situation in which it is laughably easy for Goldman Sachs to deliver some, shall we say, favorable numbers about itself to justify the government propping up its continued existence, which then make their way to Bush. It's not that he's impotent or stupid. It's that the system delivering information to him is flawed.

And if you believe that a chain of human beings dealing with their own financial future are incorruptable and morally perfect, well, I'd say that's... pretty naive.

I'm sure there were people in his ear telling him all the bull**** he told us. However, for every Dick Cheney there was a Colin Powell. Not to mention the intelligence briefings that didn't come down the Rummy-Cheney-Wolfowitz pipeline which made it clear Saddam had nothing to do with al-Qaeda.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that there were plenty of people who weren't the President of the United States that knew it was a load of **** before it happened, including my 16 year old self. If my dumb ass could figure it out, I find it hard to believe Bush couldn't and didn't.

Also, nowhere did I state anything close to your last assertion. I'm the biggest cynic in the world. I just feel that Bush was included in that chain of human beings.

[GoSkins561]

Hmmm. Seems like you just copped out of my question in the exact same manner. But, hell, as long as you want to continue playing this "Respond to totally outlandish, implausible scenario question with another outlandish, totally implausible scenario question" game....

Let's say we capture a unicorn that wants to build a time machine out of a Delorean and go back in time to kill your parents. We have a Hobbit who can make him talk through extremely painful Hobbit torture. Do you let the Hobbit torture the unicorn to prevent the Delorean-based murder?

Dude do you suffer from memory loss or do you just ignore facts?

Lets try again except I will add a twist to a real life story.

Your last name is Berg, you have a son by the name of Nick, he is being held hostage by terrorists. We have a terrorist in custody that says he knows where Nick is and that we will learn about where he his soon enough when his captors send us a video of his head being chopped off. If you were Nick Bergs Dad and knew this guy was withholding information that wouls save Nicks life, would you want the CIA to water board the terrorist to save your sons life?

Pick One

YES

NO

As for my son being tortured to save innocent lives. Well if my son did somehing wrong and he was involved with a group that was about to take innocent lives, my son has knowledge of the potential disaster. I have no problem with him being water boarded (and then some) to save these lives.

The same way if he breaks the law, I would want him to be arrested for his crimes.

[Larry]

Let's say we capture a unicorn that wants to build a time machine out of a Delorean and go back in time to kill your parents. We have a Hobbit who can make him talk through extremely painful Hobbit torture. Do you let the Hobbit torture the unicorn to prevent the Delorean-based murder?

Of course not, since the fact that I exist proves that he has already failed to do what he hasn't done yet.

[Hubbs]

Dude do you suffer from memory loss or do you just ignore facts?

Lets try again except I will add a twist to a real life story.

Your last name is Berg, you have a son by the name of Nick, he is being held hostage by terrorists. We have a terrorist in custody that says he knows where Nick is and that we will learn about where he his soon enough when his captors send us a video of his head being chopped off. If you were Nick Bergs Dad and knew this guy was withholding information that wouls save Nicks life, would you want the CIA to water board the terrorist to save your sons life?

Pick One

YES

NO

The United States has a well-known policy of not negotiating with terrorists. You have a son. He is in a room that has been captured by terrorists. They are killing one hostage every ten minutes until they get what they want. Your son is next. Do you negotiate with the terrorists? Pick one:

YES

NO

As for my son being tortured to save innocent lives. Well if my son did somehing wrong and he was involved with a group that was about to take innocent lives, my son has knowledge of the potential disaster. I have no problem with him being water boarded (and then some) to save these lives.

The same way if he breaks the law, I would want him to be arrested for his crimes.

You literally ignored the entire premise of my question and wrote a new question to ask yourself and then answer. Good job.

And Chopper, are you talking about the Colin Powell who went to the UN to tell everyone how dangerous Iraq was? That Colin Powell?