My Slug Witucki Theory for Drafting O-Line Talent

[Oldfan]

Om's "Tale of the Tape" thread about the size of our offensive line inspired this thread. If my theory is correct, there is a way to find very good O linemen in the bottom of the draft and among the UDFAs.

Back in the early 50s, the South Stands in Griffith Stadium were temporary hiney-on-board bleachers erected on the baseball field for Redskins games. If the spectator didn't mind being fixed firmly into a wall of inebriated humanity, the view of the action was excellent. You sat close enough to hear the impacts and evaluate the lineplay. It was in this setting at one particular game that I pretty much forgot to watch the runner and the quarterback and became fascinated by the good work of RG Casimir "Slug" Witucki.

It amazed me that day how low to the ground the man could operate in rooting out bigger defensive linemen. There was just no way in hell for the defender to get under his pads for leverage.

NFL.com has Slug listed at five-eleven, 245 pounds. No way was he five-eleven. Five-nine maybe with no fat roll and built like you'd expect a guy nicknamed Slug to be built.

So, my theory is that NFL teams have gone way overboard on the size factor in evaluating O line talent. Yes, the typical man six-six can add more muscle mass on his frame than a man six feet tall, but if he's frequently at a leverage disadvantage, what good is it? I think the Skins could find excellent O line talent by looking for the shorter, lighter, narrow-waisted, wide-body types overlooked by most NFL teams.

[tiger187126]

A smaller body would probably mean better agility for roll outs and pulling, which are more prevelant in our west coast than in the run first our guys were built for.

[McD5]

Are you suggesting that we get someone in the mold of a Herve Villechaize?

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Oldfan, I like your post. In some aspects I agree. I like Guards that have speed and can pull when needed. But, I do think that a guy like Rabach is undersized at center. Having to take on NT's in the middle who out weigh him by 30 pounds is difficult. Now Rabach has some good moves and uses that to his advantage, but he is continuously over matched on size.

I am not a fan of the fat body lineman who can't move too good. I like athletes even at the O-line positions. That is one reason that I am weary of Andre Smith, but Smith looks good in game films. But, so does Oher who tends to have good feet and good technique.

[Oldfan]

A smaller body would probably mean better agility for roll outs and pulling, which are more prevelant in our west coast than in the run first our guys were built for.

If I'm right, there is a much larger pool of excellent athletes to select from.

Even in the power blocking game, leverage is a bigger factor than a weight disadvantage (unless the disadvantage is huge).

[LD0506]

This may be the best thread title we have seen in a long time :thumbsup:

[TerpSkin]

Oldfan, I like your post. In some aspects I agree. I like Guards that have speed and can pull when needed. But, I do think that a guy like Rabach is undersized at center. Having to take on NT's in the middle who out weigh him by 30 pounds is difficult. Now Rabach has some good moves and uses that to his advantage, but he is continuously over matched on size.

I agree with this, but if you look at what Oldfan is suggesting (or at least how I interpreted it), it's not so much Rabach's weight (296) but his height and build that is the problem (6'4" and pretty slender for an OL). Maybe a center who is the same weight but only 6' tall, with the proper athleticism and form, could handle those huge NTs better because of leverage... the idea being that there are a lot more 6' 300lb guys with good athleticism in late rounds than there are 330 pound guys with sufficient athleticism.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, I like your post. In some aspects I agree. I like Guards that have speed and can pull when needed. But, I do think that a guy like Rabach is undersized at center. Having to take on NT's in the middle who out weigh him by 30 pounds is difficult. Now Rabach has some good moves and uses that to his advantage, but he is continuously over matched on size.

I am not a fan of the fat body lineman who can't move too good. I like athletes even at the O-line positions. That is one reason that I am weary of Andre Smith, but Smith looks good in game films. But, so does Oher who tends to have good feet and good technique.

Jets fans worried about Nick Mangold's lack of size at Center. He hasn't had a problem with the bigger NTs. He's just a better player than Rabach. His background as a wrestler is a tipoff that he is agile, quick and solid in techniques.

Those fat rolls on Andre Smith worry me. Besides the stamina and agility issues, I think they signal lack of discipline.

[Oldfan]

This may be the best thread title we have seen in a long time :thumbsup:

Glad you liked it.

[Dan T.]

You and Joe Bugel would probably see eye to eye on this. I've heard Joe talk before that he likes guys with big asses and thick thighs that can stay low... guys with that low center of gravity.

So on the offensive line anyway, height itself may not be all that much of an advantage, except for one reason. With height usually comes long arms, which for an O-lineman in the hand-to-hand combat is an advantage in keeping the defender away from his body.

So, really, the ideal body shape for an offensive lineman is that of an Orangutan - short, squat, low center of gravity, with long arms...

[Oldfan]

So, really, the ideal body shape for an offensive lineman is that of an Orangutan - short, squat, low center of gravity, with long arms...

Hey! That gives me another idea. Is there an NFL rule stating that a player must be human?

[eljeasel]

Hey! That gives me another idea. Is there an NFL rule stating that a player must be human?

We might be onto something here. An all Rhinocerous OL. Talk about mauling at the line of scrimmage...

[Dan T.]

This may be the best thread title we have seen in a long time :thumbsup:

If I were going to change my screen name, "Slug Witucki" would be a pretty good choice.

[DieselPwr44]

my theory is that NFL teams have gone way overboard on the size factor in evaluating O line talent. Yes, the typical man six-six can add more muscle mass on his frame than a man six feet tall, but if he's frequently at a leverage disadvantage, what good is it?

Care to explain the dominance of the Hogs and the early 90's Cowboys' line?

Both were big for their time and they dominated.

[Dan T.]

Care to explain the dominance of the Hogs and the early 90's Cowboys' line?

Both were big for their time and they dominated.

I think times are different now. Now, everybody's big. In the Hogs' heyday, their overall size was a novelty that worked to their advantage.

[Bigredskin77]

I think times are different now. Now, everybody's big. In the Hogs' heyday, their overall size was a novelty that worked to their advantage.

People are just listening to to many stupid Reporters. If a lineman looks a certain way like tony mandrich then all lineman should look that way. Just idiots. All lineman are going to be fat. There are not going to be any skinny lineman. That is a big boy position.

[Oldfan]

Care to explain the dominance of the Hogs and the early 90's Cowboys' line?

Both were big for their time and they dominated.

Why should I?

Your observation has nothing to do with the points made in my OP.

BTW Bostic came in as a lightweight.

[The Rook]

This may be the best thread title we have seen in a long time :thumbsup:

I agree. I thought I was going to have to use a gaelic translator.

:helmet: The Rook

[Jumbo]

Why should I?

Your observation has nothing to do with the points made in my OP.

BTW Bostic came in as a lightweight.

From what I can tell, you complete #DP44

It is an awesome title. :cool2:

You can teach handling/using leverage to big guys, but not all big guys can learn it. But even in the "smaller", more theoretically leverage-advantaged dudes you envision, endurance and stamina would play a huge role beyond basci athleticism simply by nature of the muscle fatigue and oxygenation demands of dealing with a notably bigger/heavier mass laying against you, tieing you up, or trying to be moved, even if your leverage is better. Now I have always liked the idea of teaching judo/jujitsu/aikido line techniques to redirect the opponents energy/momentum, but then you never know whether you'll be redirecting them into your own guy or not.

[Meatsnack]

The Small Lineman theory has two major holes and a few smaller ones in it from my vantage point.

1) Arm length in this era determines who gets first blow in line play. If I get the first blow, I can move you off balance and continue moving you in the direction of your imbalance. In Slug's era, any hand use at all was a penalty, so reach was a non-issue. In today's game it is a must. That is why AQ Shipley, the best OC technician in the draft at 6'0 and 300#, will be a late round draft choice; he has 31" arms. A lineman in this era who starts out too low will just take a blow that forces him down and onto the ground. As Kedrick Golston said to Kelly on Redskins Postgame Live, "I don't play a very complicated position. I got to get my hands on the O-lineman's chest and keep his hands off my chest."

2) Inertia, or more properly, mass. O-linmen would all be more agile without body fat but O-line coaches demand a certain amount of weight in all line prospects except OLT. This is because it is a passing league now and O-linemen are asked to hand-punch to deflect the defender and then absorb the remaining impact. Without enough "junk in the trunk" a lineman will be susceptible to the bull-rush.

The other issues are just the beating of line play and the sheer size of D-linemen. Nose tackles routinely breach 330#. DE's in the 3-4 are 6'5 to 6'7" and around 300#. Asking a small man to cope with that is not a long-term win because of the amount of energy the smaller man has to expend to move that much mass around. Once worn out, any player is much more susceptible to injury.

Smaller linemen do succeed all the time in cut-blocking heavy schemes that require linemen to get angles and block below the waist or from behind to create creases. Fortunately, those schemes are dying away and not so many defenders are having careers ended prematurely these days.

I will be interested to see who we draft if we go O-line. A guy like Max Unger who can bend and run and carries 300# with ease on his 6'5" frame and can pull and trap and zone block is an ideal pure WCO guard/center. A guy like Andre Smith or Duke Robinson who is a thickly built mauler who fits our traditional smashmouth run offense is a signal that the WCO under Zorn is going to continue in the Midwest Coast Offense tradition established in the first eight games of last season.

[Oldfan]

You can teach handling/using leverage to big guys, but not all big guys can learn it.

I'm sure Heyer understands the concept but if he hasn't mastered the techniques by now I doubt he ever will

But even in the "smaller", more theoretically leverage-advantaged dudes you envision, endurance and stamina would play a huge role beyond basci athleticism simply by nature of the muscle fatigue and oxygenation demands of dealing with a notably bigger/heavier mass laying against you, tieing you up, or trying to be moved, even if your leverage is better.

...a disadvantage offset by that of the big, fat boys whose muscle fatigue and oxygenation demands are challenged just by moving their own heavier mass on and off the field with changes of possession.

Now I have always liked the idea of teaching judo/jujitsu/aikido line techniques to redirect the opponents energy/momentum, but then you never know whether you'll be redirecting them into your own guy or not.

New Zorn drill: having his QBs dodge bodies thrown at them by his Aikido-trained O line warriors.

[Oldfan]

Meatsnack: The Small Lineman theory has two major holes and a few smaller ones in it from my vantage point.

1) Arm length in this era determines who gets first blow in line play. If I get the first blow, I can move you off balance and continue moving you in the direction of your imbalance.

Did Aaron Kampman (6-4, 265) injure both Heyer and Wade with bull rushes in 2007 Green Bay game because his arms were longer or because of leverage and power? Did Strahan (255), Tuck (274) and Kerney (272) wear our RTs out that year because of longer arms?

In Slug's era, any hand use at all was a penalty, so reach was a non-issue. In today's game it is a must.

Long arms help in pass protection in today's game but leverage is still the most important factor. The rules haven't changed that.

That is why AQ Shipley, the best OC technician in the draft at 6'0 and 300#, will be a late round draft choice; he has 31" arms.

Take him, then. Let him get those short, little arms under his man's pads.

A lineman in this era who starts out too low will just take a blow that forces him down and onto the ground.

Then, obviously, he should get low, but not TOO low.

2) Without enough "junk in the trunk" a lineman will be susceptible to the bull-rush.

Lacking good leverage, the player's junk can be moved into the pocket.

The other issues are just the beating of line play and the sheer size of D-linemen. Nose tackles routinely breach 330#. DE's in the 3-4 are 6'5 to 6'7" and around 300#. Asking a small man to cope with that is not a long-term win because of the amount of energy the smaller man has to expend to move that much mass around. Once worn out, any player is much more susceptible to injury.

It's the biggest players in the league who are short-winded and need to take plays off.

Smaller linemen do succeed all the time in cut-blocking heavy schemes that require linemen to get angles and block below the waist or from behind to create creases. Fortunately, those schemes are dying away and not so many defenders are having careers ended prematurely these days.

The Denver zone-blocking schemes used lighter more athletic, O linemen. Most teams, including the Skins, now use zone-blocking. Denver's stretch plays have replaced Gibbs's counter trey.

I will be interested to see who we draft if we go O-line. A guy like Max Unger who can bend and run and carries 300# with ease on his 6'5" frame and can pull and trap and zone block is an ideal pure WCO guard/center.

The WCO isn't associated with any particular run-blocking scheme. That's why Zorn had no problem going with the one already in place when he got here. We do use a lot of Denver's zone-blocking, though.

[Big Mac Patty Wack]

I like this idea. I think technique is too often substituted for measurables.

[HighOnHendrix]

I like this idea. I think technique is too often substituted for measurables.

Size and performance in drills is given too much weight at every position right now IMO.

[Vicious]

fat boys win the game, Smoot does know what he is talking about, More Fatboys! Can't go wrong with fat boys.