Burgold Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Atlanta Skins Fan wrote a bunch of very negative stuff about Gardner last year. There was even a bet between Art and (I think it was ASF, but I'm not sure) over whether McCants would surpass him and replace him in a few years. The post just had a several similarities. NYC, I think what several posters are getting at is that you post statements, but provide no logic to support it. The Redskins in the last four years have won a playoff game. The Jets in the last four years have won one play off game. In the last thirty years the redskins have been to five superbowls and won three. So, sixteen percent of the time they have been in the Championship game and ten percent of the time they have been the absolute best. The recent years have been leaner, but we are hopeful because of what we have seen last year and who we have signed this year. You have told us that your team's MVP is a mediocre player. That's fine. Again, if the best player on your team based on the team or coach's opinion was barely mediocre... Well, you draw the conclusions as to your team's potential... In the last thirty years the Jets have reached the championship game 0 times. There's no need to compute percentages. As for Gardner, I think you folks are underselling him. He has had a good growth curve despite inconsistent quarterbacking and a line last year that really did not allow the quarterback to deliver the ball as he would prefer. Given that, the fact that he was a thousand yard, seventy catch receiver is a fete. I'm pretty sure he will live out his contract. In 2005, a lot of fates will be up in the air because that's the scheme that the front office has decided on. I will point out that the firesale the Raiders were supposed to have never happened. The Jaguars did have one, but that is primarily because they were underperforming based on their contracts and felt they needed to clean house rather than manipulate the contracts. Schottenheimer also felt that starting over was superior than dealing with future headaches. If we reach the levels we hope for... we will make it work. If not, than players will be shed, even the ones we like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I thought they were all just about as bad. Easily the worst group of recievers I've seen in 30 years though. Applauded management decision to replace 4 out 6. They dropped 7 balls coming out of half time of one game, before I lost count. Three were Gardners. One bounced off his hands, off his chest, off his chin, and off his hands a second time. He's a human horseshoe post, everything bounces off him. Thompson & McCants were cheaper versions of the same model - big, but not physical, slow with stone hands. In the context of Spurrier's pass happy offense (15 run/35+ passes-per-game), the 70rc/1000yd is mediocre. And his drops went off the charts. Gardners proven inadequate at #1, now he gets his shot at #2. Can't wait to see how the new guys do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drex Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 In case of Gardner's eventual departure, hopefully Jacobs will emerge and become a potential #2 receiver in this offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novato Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 we'll have to wait until his contract ends and Jacobs has at least 2 years playing and proven he can play in the NFL. Until then Gardner stays.:mexican: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Manasseh Personally, I feel that Gardner's fate hinges a great deal on this season. How will he perform with the presence of another legitimate #1 receiver on the team? Can he fulfill his role? Will he prove himself worthy of the money we're paying him or can McCants play his role just as well? A lot of those questions won't be answered until later in the season. I'll hold off on voting in this poll just yet. NYC, are you going to back up your comments with any factual information or do you not have any facts to back up your useless comments? I agree. I think the FO is unsure if they want to make Gardner a priority or not. No question he is talented, but they need to figure out whether he will be worth the money he'll ask for, considering the system he is playing in. For someone who seemingly doesn't fit the system and didn't even have a competent speed guy to complement him, he did well for himself. I like his chances ths year to succeed, but there is no doubt that he is a lower priority than Champ and LA. This year he will have to show that he is needed in this offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser NC Hooters Girl.....is that you? No, but you've definitely made me hungry for some hot wings for lunch today. Hey you really should talk with ASF next time you see him post, you have a common bond. I still think Gardner will produce into one of the top 10 receivers in the NFL, if Ramsey settles into his own and ends the QB carosel, it could happen here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I've been rather hard on Gardner, mainly because I can't stand to see NFL players make mental lapses and essentially show an unwillingness to dedicate himself to ALL the nuances of the position he plays. Gardner has talent, no question he can be a top tier wideout in the NFL. Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison wideout.... absolutely not. But... he can be a productive Jimmy Smith, Tory Holt, Plaxico Burress type. Last year he dropped far less balls than as a rookie, but he did still drop a few that he could have caught. He tipped quite a few more that were subsequently picked off. That has to stop. The main problem I have with him is the poor routes and general indecisiveness in games last year. On more than one occasion it appeared he was unsure where he was suppose to be on the field.... highlighted on more than one occasion by Jaws on NFL Edge. Rounded routes, little if any seperation moves, and poor defensive alignment recognition have plagued him since entering the league. The most maddening is the lack of desire..... the giving up on plays not coming his way. The int against the Giants where he just begins to walk to the sidelines instead of tackling the ball carrier. That is a troubling sign, one in which he just isn't in the game unless he's getting the ball. Secondly, the seeminly inability to keep a block.... or even make an attempt. I think Spurrier was really miffed about Gardner's penchants to go through the motions when he isn't the primary target of the offensive play. I hope McCants improves, shows that he can keep the "possesion" receiver role in this offense. The kid is as fast Gardner, maybe faster, and is bigger and harder to bring down by defenders. Should this happen, and Gardner simply maintain his 70/1000/8 TD performance..... than Gardner is released to save money against the cap for the true IMPACT players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Gardner has done nothing in his first two years as a professional that should give Redskin fans anything but pleasant thoughts and hope. He's been productive and he's improved. He's proven capable of making the tough catch and he's proven to be a receiver who worries the opposition which is why coverages were rolled his way so often last year. I agree with Cskin that he's not a true elite receiver. But, he's a guy who can be better than Art Monk was for us. Why so many of you are so down on him simply astounds me because there's been nothing in his first two years that should have you upset with the way he's performed, especially in light of the improvement in the areas where his performance could be frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I'd like to see Gardner bulk up some more and become a pseudo tight end type for us, that way if we fit him into that mold he wont need to be paid as much and can still be a possession type guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by KevinthePRF No, but you've definitely made me hungry for some hot wings for lunch today. Hey you really should talk with ASF next time you see him post, you have a common bond. I still think Gardner will produce into one of the top 10 receivers in the NFL, if Ramsey settles into his own and ends the QB carosel, it could happen here. =============================================== Hey don't forget the fuzzy navel shots either. Well you & ASF must of had a lot good times together, as much as I hear about him. You have a lot in common with NC Hooter Girl...she just school girlishly likes everyone on the team whether there any good or not & waits until their gone to make up their mind they weren't really good enough for her Redskins. Top 10? He's already proved inadequate as the #1 wr on our team. So that automatically knocks him out of the top 32. :doh: Top 10 would give him a trip to the probowl, at least as an alternate. How about seeing if he can beat out the rookies first. I'll count the catches, you count the drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Kornheiser, If you can't tell the difference between somebody named Kevin and a Hooters girl....:doh: Ironically, I did hear of a guy in college who had trouble with that distinction, and I think his name was ... Kornholer...:high: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Art Gardner has done nothing in his first two years as a professional that should give Redskin fans anything but pleasant thoughts and hope. He's been productive and he's improved. He's proven capable of making the tough catch and he's proven to be a receiver who worries the opposition which is why coverages were rolled his way so often last year. I agree with Cskin that he's not a true elite receiver. But, he's a guy who can be better than Art Monk was for us. Why so many of you are so down on him simply astounds me because there's been nothing in his first two years that should have you upset with the way he's performed, especially in light of the improvement in the areas where his performance could be frustrating. ========================================== Gardner: Darrell had better hands, Rod might be faster *lmao* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser You have a lot in common with NC Hooter Girl...she just school girlishly likes everyone on the team whether there any good or not & waits until their gone to make up their mind they weren't really good enough for her Redskins. Top 10? He's already proved inadequate as the #1 wr on our team. So that automatically knocks him out of the top 32. :doh: Top 10 would give him a trip to the probowl, at least as an alternate. How about seeing if he can beat out the rookies first. I'll count the catches, you count the drops. Hey no fair comparison, I hated Dana Stubblefield, and was a proud Sam Shade basher from birth to abortion. And don't get me started on Wilbert Brown. The thing I wonder, what is the time window for a receiver, or any player, to develop? I guess two years is your cut off point in which a WR needs to come in catching 80 balls a season or is a lost cause. A hefty task for Gardner considering the plethora of rotating QBs he's had to deal with along with his own development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandies Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 His first two years are close to comparable to a receiver who has the last name of Rice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 i am a fan of gardner. i was impressed on how he progressed after his up and down rookie year-- mainly in how he adjusted to catching a pro ball. he had a load of drops his rookie season and dramatically improved last year in that aspect. i need to find some numbers on WR drops.... he basically produced what i thought, but with a few more TD's. the guy is a big possesion receiver, but has shown flashes that he can have some breakout games-- remember the CAR game his rookie year? i think it was CAR... anyways-- the kid can play. and now that he is our number two WR he will get even more favorable matchups. remember last year we didn't have a true number two guy-- now our old #1 is our #2. he should tear it up. and add jacobs into the equation (I am predicting 40-650-5) we will have a great group of young WR's to work with the next few years. that is as long as he gets through those mental lapses and runs better routes-- something that he should get better at seeing as he is working with coles and jacobs now... they should push him to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTerps2002 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I think it really depends how how the team does... If we start winning then you try and keep the team together another 8-8 or 7-9 then it is time to looks other places Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by riggo-toni Kornheiser, If you can't tell the difference between somebody named Kevin and a Hooters girl....:doh: Ironically, I did hear of a guy in college who had trouble with that distinction, and I think his name was ... Kornholer...:high: ================================= *lol* oh drat, drat and double-drat you riggo-toni. You've foiled me again. :laugh: Let me guess, another one of ASF's male companions. Sure is a loyal group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser They dropped 7 balls coming out of half time of one game, before I lost count. Three were Gardners. One bounced off his hands, off his chest, off his chin, and off his hands a second time. He's a human horseshoe post, everything bounces off him. Thompson & McCants were cheaper versions of the same model - big, but not physical, slow with stone hands. I think you're being a bit harsh. Thompson is currently impressing the hell out of Miami and will most likely earn himself a starting spot opposite Chambers. I've found a stats site that has Gardner officially dropping 5 passes last season, which was 7.1% of the overall amount of passes thrown to him. Here it is: Gardner's offensive stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by AJWatson3 i am a fan of gardner. i was impressed on how he progressed after his up and down rookie year-- mainly in how he adjusted to catching a pro ball. he had a load of drops his rookie season and dramatically improved last year in that aspect. i need to find some numbers on WR drops.... he basically produced what i thought, but with a few more TD's. the guy is a big possesion receiver, but has shown flashes that he can have some breakout games-- remember the CAR game his rookie year? i think it was CAR... anyways-- the kid can play. and now that he is our number two WR he will get even more favorable matchups. remember last year we didn't have a true number two guy-- now our old #1 is our #2. he should tear it up. and add jacobs into the equation (I am predicting 40-650-5) we will have a great group of young WR's to work with the next few years. that is as long as he gets through those mental lapses and runs better routes-- something that he should get better at seeing as he is working with coles and jacobs now... they should push him to improve. I've got to agree with AJ...Gardner was one of the few bright spots for us last year. Was he perfect? Of course not, but he was solid as a rock for most of the year. Will Jacobs or one of our other 'sexier' WR's surpass him at some point? Possibly, but I wouldn't bet against Gardner. Art Monk wasn't 'sexy' either, but we all know the kind of production and dependability on 3rd down he gave the Skins. We forget Gardner is still learning, but has consistently produced and been our go-to guy despite not having another legitimate WR to reduce the pressure on him. I believe, contrary to what some are saying, that Gardner will outproduce and outplay Coles this year and be our #1 receiver in terms of yards/catches. And he'll stay a Redskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser ================================= *lol* oh drat, drat and double-drat you riggo-toni. You've foiled me again. :laugh: Let me guess, another one of ASF's male companions. Sure is a loyal group. No, I'm happily married to a woman with very large breasts, but it's good to see you have an excellent sense of humour!! :cheers: Most WRs hit it big their 3rd year. Remember, Coles did nothing his first two years. Same with David Boston. Price was average at best his first 2 years. Yes, Gardner was dropping'em left and right his rookie year, but only Schotferbrains would insist on passing that much to a rookie. While I can't argue that Gardner regressed on occasion last year, I actually believe he will finish with more catches than Coles this year. Don't forget, this guy has the best stats of any WR from his draft class, and it wasn't like he had Eric Moulds or anybody else of any worth on the other side (Though Derrius started to look like a pro-bowler for a while until he started dropping everything in the Dallas game :doh: ). You can talk about fitting into the SS system all you want, but every team needs a tough WR in the red zone, and Gardner is far more suited for that role than Coles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Korn, Concluding as you have that Gardner has already proven to be an inadequate No. 1 receiver is completely unsupported by football intelligence or observation. It may turn out that Gardner is as good as he's ever going to be already. But, in his first two years, he's been better as a receiver than the vast majority of the Top 10 receivers in the NFL. As an example, Coles was a Top 10 receiver last year in yards (11th as a receiver in catches). After his first year, had he proven he couldn't be that player? How about after his second year? Gardner was better than he was in both, yet, Gardner is doomed to forever be a failed possibility? Here are the Top 10 receivers in the NFL in terms of yards last year: Harrison Moss Toomer Ward Burress Horn Holt Owens Moulds Coles Of these 10, Gardner was better as a professional after two years than Harrison, Toomer, Ward, Burress, Horn, Owens, Moulds and Coles. Stating that Gardner can't continue to grow when each of those receivers did simply shows you lack a true appreciation for the position. With hope, you'll acquire one from simply having been provided knowledge you may have lacked. It is wrong to assume Gardner is destined to be a top receiver. It is more wrong, however, to assume Gardner is already a failed option as a top receiver, because there's more going for him on the plus side than the negative side. Hell, as Redskin fans we were by in large MUCH more forgiving and believing of Westbrook even as he failed year after year than we are with Gardner who's had two very strong years for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Originally posted by Art Hell, as Redskin fans we were by in large MUCH more forgiving and believing of Westbrook even as he failed year after year than we are with Gardner who's had two very strong years for us. That is something I've failed to understand about some Skins fans for the longest time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I think Gardner has done a great job and anybody that says differently has been smoking crack with Michael Irvin in a hotel room somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GURU Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 How many 1st or 2nd year receivers HAVE proven to be "adequate" No. 1 receivers? Don't tell me Randy Moss, because Chris Carter was already established as the #1 receiver. Moss was spectacular, especially downfield, but Carter was still the bread-and-butter receiver. Just look at how Moss, even in his fifth season, struggled last year without a legitimate threat across from him. Yeah, he had his highest reception total, but his lowest TD total and lowest yards-per-catch average, by far. Terrell Owens benifitted from the presence of Jerry Rice, early on. But most of the top receivers struggled in their first 2 or 3 years. One of the most important things a No. 1 receiver does is make big catches for first downs. How did Gardner stack up in that regard? 71.8% of his catches went for first downs. That's higher than Marvin Harrison (64.3), Randy Moss (62.3), Eric Moulds (64.0), Terrell Owens (61.0) and Jerry Rice (64.1). How can you continue to harp on Gardner's drops and ignore his sometimes specatcular catches on so many poorly thrown balls? Hell, I betcha anything that Terrell Owens had more drops last season than Gardner. Speed and separation? How can you average over 14 yards a catch without getting separation? Apparently, opposing defenses think more of Rod Gardner than some people on this board do. The fact that they started double-teaming Gardner and rolling their coverages towards him as a rookie, over Michael Westbrook, says something. And if you paid attention to coverages last year, Gardner was about the only receiver they took seriously. Considering the offensive line play, the quarterback play, and talent of the receiving corps during Gardner's first two season, I'd say he shows a hellava lot of promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 We meet again Miiister Anderson, and as you see the best part about being me... is me....and me....and me.....me me me......it's useless to resist us.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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