John Palermo?

[WizSkinsO's]

I don't know a ton about the intricacies of the game, so I ask any of the real smart football guys to please educate me if I'm completely off on this guy.

It was just my observation though that our pass rush was absurdly awful last year. Emphasis on absurdly. I know we had injuries and all that but, as Blache said, we couldn't sack a bag of groceries.

I know Blache's defensive style had a bit to do with that--he didn't blitz that much, put a lot of guys in coverage, and that's why we had a great pass D even without the pass rush...but I just couldn't understand how a line with Montgomery, Taylor, and Carter playing together at points still couldn't get anywhere near the QB. It seemed almost like we weren't running the right plays for the linemen--all the swim moves and techniques that teams like the Giants have employed so well over the last few years.

I know Haynesworth obviously makes a huge difference and hopefully Taylor is healthy again this year, but I just wonder if Palermo is the right guy to get the most out of that bunch. I remember when we signed him we plucked him strangely out of decent college success but not much NFL. Shouldn't we think about getting a Spags or Schwartz disciple instead? Is he the guy we want coaching our $100 million player and now-loaded D-Line?

Your input appreciated.

[Combatant]

Actually the Skins blitzed, but it was never effective. I understand you questioning the Palermo move, but all guys have to get a chance sooner or later. Who gave Spags and Schwartz their chance? I am all for bringing a fresh perspective in, let's see what Palermo's got before questioning the hire. Hail!

[IbleedBnG83]

We had crappy DT's combined with Blache's gap control system.

[maskedsuperstar]

We had crappy DT's combined with Blache's gap control system.

No, the DT's weren't crappy. The system is crappy. I can understand stopping the run. But pressuring the QB is a must.

[Darth Tater]

I don't know a ton about the intricacies of the game' date=' so I ask any of the real smart football guys to please educate me if I'm completely off on this guy.

It was just my observation though that our pass rush was absurdly awful last year. Emphasis on absurdly. I know we had injuries and all that but, as Blache said, we couldn't sack a bag of groceries.

I know Blache's defensive style had a bit to do with that--he didn't blitz that much, put a lot of guys in coverage, and that's why we had a great pass D even without the pass rush...but I just couldn't understand how a line with Montgomery, Taylor, and Carter playing together at points still couldn't get anywhere near the QB. It seemed almost like we weren't running the right plays for the linemen--all the swim moves and techniques that teams like the Giants have employed so well over the last few years.

I know Haynesworth obviously makes a huge difference and hopefully Taylor is healthy again this year, but I just wonder if Palermo is the right guy to get the most out of that bunch. I remember when we signed him we plucked him strangely out of decent college success but not much NFL. Shouldn't we think about getting a Spags or Schwartz disciple instead? Is he the guy we want coaching our $100 million player and now-loaded D-Line?

Your input appreciated.[/quote']

Blache doesn't blitz a lot? Try just about every down!

[Darth Tater]

No, the DT's weren't crappy. The system is crappy. I can understand stopping the run. But pressuring the QB is a must.

The best defenses Blache has been involved with have had good to great defensive tackle play. The thing he does is NOT stop the run any more than almost all teams in the NFL, he sends his d-line through the pass lanes to open up free rush lanes for his blitzers (usually between the ends) and to force the QB to float the ball or throw it low.

[NoVaSkins21]

No, the DT's weren't crappy. The system is crappy. I can understand stopping the run. But pressuring the QB is a must.

Yeah this is going to be something to watch. According to the article this morning about AH's DL coach with the Titans, he eventually let AH freelance to let him become the player he has become. Blache and Co. are going to have to change their scheme if they're going to be successful with AH and the rest of the DL.

[jflow78]

The difference is that Blache blitzes all the time, and he expects his LBs to put the pressure on the QB most of the time. The DL is there to fill in gaps, they're not the primary pass-rushers in this defense. Now that Haynesworth is here, he gets so much push in his gap it will collapse the pocket and give the outside guys (OLBs and DEs) a much higher chance of snagging a fleeing QB or RB.

I don't know that Palermo was responsible for the lack of pass-rush, but even if he was having growing pains I think you at least give a guy a year to learn and see how his unit does the following year. Otherwise lots of coaches would be in 1 year and gone the next.

[Darth Tater]

The difference is that Blache blitzes all the time, and he expects his LBs to put the pressure on the QB most of the time. The DL is there to fill in gaps, they're not the primary pass-rushers in this defense. Now that Haynesworth is here, he gets so much push in his gap it will collapse the pocket and give the outside guys (OLBs and DEs) a much higher chance of snagging a fleeing QB or RB.

I don't know that Palermo was responsible for the lack of pass-rush, but even if he was having growing pains I think you at least give a guy a year to learn and see how his unit does the following year. Otherwise lots of coaches would be in 1 year and gone the next.

Thing is, the d-line sack total is about what defenses with Blache involved will produce.

[Thinking Skins]

Whats interesting is this little line from a JLC writeup:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/renaldo_wynn_agrees_to_terms_w.html

With defensive line coach John Palermo struggling to adjust to the NFL game last year, according to numerous team sources, after a career in college,

I don't put much stock into it, but the fact that the question was raised here made me want to bring it back up. Part of me doesn't understand how Carter could get double digit sacks in 2007 and get almost nil in 2008. Both times we had almost no DT pass rush push, was Daniels that important to Carter's success?

[IbleedBnG83]

Whats interesting is this little line from a JLC writeup:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/renaldo_wynn_agrees_to_terms_w.html

I don't put much stock into it, but the fact that the question was raised here made me want to bring it back up. Part of me doesn't understand how Carter could get double digit sacks in 2007 and get almost nil in 2008. Both times we had almost no DT pass rush push, was Daniels that important to Carter's success?

Good post.

Blache was the defensive line coach before Palermo. The fact that he took over as DC is the difference maker to me. He his scheme is in large part due to the dl play, and if he is not overseeing Palermo closely enough, that falls on him.

We better see some marked improvement this year.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The problem with our pass rush last year was very very simple. It's in three parts.

1. Our DEs were speed rushers (and mediocre ones at that). Both of them could only run to the taclkes outside shoulder. Which meant that the QB could step up to avoid them. Now this could be fine if B was not the case.

2. Our DTs were basically nose tackles. They couldn't be pushed around which is why we are good against the run. But they had 0 pass rush skills. So basically they just hung around the line of scrimmage. And this created huge passing lanes for QBs to pass or scramble. If the DTs got a push, the speed rushers could have forced the QB to step into them. But when the QB stepped up, there was nothing but space waiting for him.

3. You can alleviate this by blitzing. But blitzing is a skill. And the only guy in our back 7 who had any blitzing skill was - surprisingly - Horton. Marcus Washington was a great pass rusher in his prime, but that was past. Rocky is a terrible blitzer. He runs full speed to a spot and if there is no one there, he is done. Fletcher is not a pass rusher. Landry was 30 yards downfield.

Hopefully, there will be someone in the middle thanks to Haynesworth.

[ThePreciating]

Isn't Palermo the one who got us to bring in Erasmus James? Palermo was his line coach in college I believe.

[AKM311]

Whats interesting is this little line from a JLC writeup:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/renaldo_wynn_agrees_to_terms_w.html

I don't put much stock into it, but the fact that the question was raised here made me want to bring it back up. Part of me doesn't understand how Carter could get double digit sacks in 2007 and get almost nil in 2008. Both times we had almost no DT pass rush push, was Daniels that important to Carter's success?

No, but Sean Taylor and a healthy MW was.

Sean Taylor bought us sooo much time that is allowed Carter to get that extra half second he needed.

[Thinking Skins]

No, but Sean Taylor and a healthy MW was.

Sean Taylor bought us sooo much time that is allowed Carter to get that extra half second he needed.

Then why didn't Carter have the extra sacks in 2006? And he was still getting sacks after Taylor got hurt in 2007. (Carter got 4.5 of his 10.5 sacks after Taylor got hurt). I think the problem is a little more than because of the loss of Sean Taylor.

And as far as Washington, I can understand the idea of McIntosh's loss hurting Carter more than Washington's. I remember in 2006, they just ran at Carter's side of the ball because neither he nor Holdman was good at stopping the run. I can understand the idea that McIntosh rushing back from his injury and getting tired towards the middle and end og the season could have hurt Carter too.

[IbleedBnG83]

No, but Sean Taylor and a healthy MW was.

Sean Taylor bought us sooo much time that is allowed Carter to get that extra half second he needed.

Yes and no. Collapsing the pocket causes sacks. You have to look at the interior defensive line play and you will see the difference.

[TheLongshot]

I don't put much stock into it, but the fact that the question was raised here made me want to bring it back up. Part of me doesn't understand how Carter could get double digit sacks in 2007 and get almost nil in 2008. Both times we had almost no DT pass rush push, was Daniels that important to Carter's success?

Watching Carter in the past three years, I think there is a real fine line between him getting 4 sacks and getting 10. There were a lot of times where Carter was a hairsbreath away from getting sacks.

Do I think Daniels makes THAT much of a difference? To a certain extent. He moves inside on Nickel situations and I think on the inside he does create mismatches in pass rushing situations that free up the smaller guys like Carter and Wilson.

I don't know what Palermo could be struggling with. If you are a good position coach, it shouldn't make much of a difference what level you are coaching at. The fundamentals don't really change from level to level.

[Darth Tater]

Then why didn't Carter have the extra sacks in 2006? And he was still getting sacks after Taylor got hurt in 2007. (Carter got 4.5 of his 10.5 sacks after Taylor got hurt). I think the problem is a little more than because of the loss of Sean Taylor.

And as far as Washington, I can understand the idea of McIntosh's loss hurting Carter more than Washington's. I remember in 2006, they just ran at Carter's side of the ball because neither he nor Holdman was good at stopping the run. I can understand the idea that McIntosh rushing back from his injury and getting tired towards the middle and end og the season could have hurt Carter too.

Yes, if anything increased the sacks, it was signing Fletcher, drafting Landry and a healthy Springs along with 'Los who was playing up to his draft status before he was injured. Also, Phil Daniels was relatively healthy and Grif is still solid at times. Finally, Carter seemed to get more comfortable towards the end of 2006. Remember, our d-line sack total in both 2007 and 2008 were about the same, as in 2006, most of the problem actually was the failure of the extra men to create pressure.

[AKM311]

Then why didn't Carter have the extra sacks in 2006? And he was still getting sacks after Taylor got hurt in 2007. (Carter got 4.5 of his 10.5 sacks after Taylor got hurt). I think the problem is a little more than because of the loss of Sean Taylor.

And as far as Washington, I can understand the idea of McIntosh's loss hurting Carter more than Washington's. I remember in 2006, they just ran at Carter's side of the ball because neither he nor Holdman was good at stopping the run. I can understand the idea that McIntosh rushing back from his injury and getting tired towards the middle and end og the season could have hurt Carter too.

I didn't mean to imply that was the only reason, but it was a big reason.

Also, remember, in 2006 we played cover 2. In 2007 we played cover 3. That leaves an extra saftey up front to create either penetration or take out the check downs. On top of that, that was Carter's first year in the system. It takes time.

I agree that a big push in the middle is the biggest benefit for Carter. I was just answering with my 2 cents.

[darrelgreenie]

Whats interesting is this little line from a JLC writeup:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/renaldo_wynn_agrees_to_terms_w.html

I don't put much stock into it, but the fact that the question was raised here made me want to bring it back up. Part of me doesn't understand how Carter could get double digit sacks in 2007 and get almost nil in 2008. Both times we had almost no DT pass rush push, was Daniels that important to Carter's success?

Although i don't place much stock in JLC, i'm not surprised that Palermo may have struggled a bit last year.

Our pass rush was obviously non existent

and when Palermo was interviewed on Redskins nation

he made imo what amounted to a mea culpa (in regards to the lack of pressure)

saying that part of the problem was scheme

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

One of my myriad issues with Carter is that his success is almost entirely based on matchups. If you give him a slowfooted tackle, he is going to have success. Otherwise, he is not a great pass rusher. He has one move. If that moves works on the linemen he is facing, he is ok.

So...I agree with Jason that there is no difference in 4 or 10 sacks for Carter. I just have a different view as to why.

He owns Diehl from the Giants. If he gets matchups like that, he has a good year number wise. If he faces a lot of guys that can get to the edge, he has a "bad "year.