'Consumer Reports' puts Chrysler, GM in bottom spots

[China]

Any wonder why they're failing?

'Consumer Reports' puts Chrysler, GM in bottom spots

By Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY

Chrysler and General Motors (GM) took the bottom two spots, respectively, in Consumer Reports magazine's new automaker for reliability, even as the pair seek billions more in federal loans to stay afloat.

The third of Detroit's Big 3 automakers, Ford Motor, fared better at fourth from the bottom, also beating Suzuki.

First place went to Honda (HMC) for the third-consecutive year, followed by Subaru, Toyota and Mazda. Next came a tie by Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Volkswagen and BMW, among the 15 makers rated. They were followed by Hyundai, Volvo and Mitsubishi.

The rankings are based on a combination of the magazine's cumulative tests on automakers' models and predicted reliability based on readers' responses on their 1.4 million cars. It is a widely watched measure in the auto industry because of the non-profit's reputation for independence.

Click on the link for the full article

[Dictator]

consumer reports isn't really known for being unbiased when it comes to their vehicle rankings.

[PiLfan]

Woo-hoo!

Take THAT Suzuki!

yip, good times

:anon:

[mjah]

I keep hearing that Consumer Reports has it out for American automakers.

Can someone please tell me why a bunch of American gearhead writers and editors would have a shared nefarious agenda to undercut the American auto industry?

Something tells me it's not about advertising dollars. If Consumer Reports was that easily bought, Detroit would have caught on long ago and dumped a few million extra dollars -- a pittance -- into making Consumer Reports a secret marketing wing for the American automakers.

Edit: Also, from the article, 2 things jump out at me:

1) Part of the rankings come from owner experiences. So Americans unfairly hate American cars? Or are they being honest?

2) This quote:

GM has lots of older models in the lineup that bring down the results, spokeswoman Janine Fruehan says. The magazine recognized improved quality in some of GM's new vehicles, "but we have work to do on the reliability front," Fruehan says.

So GM isn't exactly arguing against the ranking here.

Doesn't smell like conspiracy to me.

[Dictator]

I keep hearing that Consumer Reports has it out for American automakers.

Can someone please tell me why a bunch of American gearhead writers and editors would have a shared nefarious agenda to undercut the American auto industry?

Something tells me it's not about advertising dollars. If Consumer Reports was that easily bought, Detroit would have caught on long ago and dumped a few million extra dollars -- a pittance -- into making Consumer Reports a secret marketing wing for the American automakers.

Not that this site isn't biased as well.....

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

http://www.autospies.com/news/Should-You-Trust-Consumer-Reports-18905/

[Dictator]

1) Part of the rankings come from owner experiences. So Americans unfairly hate American cars? Or are they being honest?

If someone buys a honda...and there's something wrong with it...more often than not, they'll let it slide as a fluke.

If they buy a Chevy, and there's something wrong with it, they'll write it up to poor american build quality.

[Commander PK]

It seems to me Chrysler was onto something with the Charger and 300 cars. I own a Charger, and everywhere you look I see another Charger, or a 300. I don't understand how they can still be having problems. My car hasn't given me problem one.

[mjah]

Dictator, I do agree with the most important criticism from your first link, which points out that Consumer Reports' survey respondents are a self-selecting sample of people motivated to report in positive or negative extremes. That means the relative positions of automakers may or may not be significantly affected, but the absolute numbers are quite possibly worthless. (Not that this really matters when you're talking about first-place Honda vs. last-place GM/Chrysler.)

As for the total of almost half a million responses -- that's pretty good. Something like a 10% response rate when you look at the details. The only real problem there is the self-selection issue -- not the overall quantity of responses.

I don't see how that would lend any empirical support to the claim that American cars get the short end of the stick in the surveys. People who self-select to report in the extreme-negative are still reporting far more on American cars than Japanese.

Which brings up the Reliable Narrator issue:

If someone buys a honda...and there's something wrong with it...more often than not, they'll let it slide as a fluke.

If they buy a Chevy, and there's something wrong with it, they'll write it up to poor american build quality.

This is really the basic issue. I'm waiting for some empirical evidence on this. Something better than a hand-waving "Oh, everybody knows that," an approach which has proven itself to be a logical error of historic proportions.

Someone get Michael Lewis on this issue.

[zoony]

Actually, GM's lineup is the strongest it's been in a lot of years. And with the Volt hitting the marketplace in 2010, it will be one of the strongest lineups of any automaker. Don't believe me? Look for yourself. GM is finally "getting it".

Now, whether or not that's enough to cover the last 30 years of them NOT getting it, remains to be seen. It might very well not be enough.

...

[Dictator]

Which brings up the Reliable Narrator issue:

This is really the basic issue. I'm waiting for some empirical evidence on this. Something better than a hand-waving "Oh, everybody knows that," an approach which has proven itself to be a logical error of historic proportions.

Someone get Michael Lewis on this issue.

I had a link at one point for a paper I wrote. I'll see if I can dig it up when i get home. I can't guarantee anything.

edit: and thank you for taking the time to read it. I believe most on here wouldn't.

[zoony]

BTW- there is an outstanding article in Men's Journal on Bob Lutz if anyone is interested. Very much worth the read.

One of the best auto guys in the business.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Sorry, there is a difference in reliability...CR is not biased.

The American cars my family has owned are Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Buick...the Buick was the only one with limited problems.

Since then, my family has owned Toyota, Honda, and Acura cars....no problems...odd? I think not.

[Dictator]

Sorry, there is a difference in reliability...CR is not biased.

The American cars my family has owned are Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Buick...the Buick was the only one with limited problems.

Since then, my family has owned Toyota, Honda, and Acura cars....no problems...odd? I think not.

and here's what I say to you....

My parents typically only owned Ford/Jeep. no problems. then they bought a honda. constant problems. They bought a hyundai. That had problems too.

does that mean Honda and hyundia build crap?

[zoony]

and here's what I say to you....

My parents typically only owned Ford/Jeep. no problems. then they bought a honda. constant problems. They bought a hyundai. That had problems too.

does that mean Honda and hyundia build crap?

Or the way Bob Lutz (Top GM Executive) answers that question...

"Yes, you're right, GM cars have been crap for the last 30 years. But they're not anymore. Drive one if you don't believe me"

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

does that mean Honda and hyundia build crap?

I would never own a Hyundai because it IS crap, though it has gotten better reliability over the past couple years.

Definite fluke thing with the Honda, we've had three and zero problems with them.

[LaxBuddy21]

It seems to me Chrysler was onto something with the Charger and 300 cars. I own a Charger, and everywhere you look I see another Charger, or a 300. I don't understand how they can still be having problems. My car hasn't given me problem one.

Thats the problem! You are not buying replacement parts! Dodge is notorious for falling apart. And I think automobile experience is all relative anyway. It all depends who you talk to and it depends on your own personal experience. If you buy a certain make of car and something happens, you tend to stay away from their cars. My grandparents for example have 2 Chevy pickups with over 220,000 miles on them and still running strong. But someone else will tell you that Chevy is horrible. I take stock in my own experiences and thats about it. I personally hate the money going to pay foreign workers instead of Americans in detroit so I tend to buy American but its just my own personal choice. And yes I know most of the parts are made over seas anyway!

[Dictator]

Or the way Bob Lutz (Top GM Executive) answers that question...

"Yes, you're right, GM cars have been crap for the last 30 years. But they're not anymore. Drive one if you don't believe me"

And he's 100% right.

[China]

Or the way Bob Lutz (Top GM Executive) answers that question...

"Yes, you're right, GM cars have been crap for the last 30 years. But they're not anymore. Drive one if you don't believe me"

The problem with that is most new cars will be fine during a test drive. I owned a Chevy that was great at first, excellent handling and power, but it fell apart after three years (and not coincidentally after the 3 year 50K warranty expired). I'm interested in long-term reliability. I can't get that info from a test drive. We won't know for sure whether GMs cars today are better until 3 years from now.

[Dictator]

I would never own a Hyundai because it IS crap, though it has gotten better reliability over the past couple years.

Definite fluke thing with the Honda, we've had three and zero problems with them.

and right there you proved my point to Mjah.

[Elessar78]

funny enough Henry Ford put it best...

“You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do.”

[zoony]

The problem with that is most new cars will be fine during a test drive. I owned a Chevy that was great at first, excellent handling and power, but it fell apart after three years (and not coincidentally after the 3 year 50K warranty expired). I'm interested in long-term reliability. I can't get that info from a test drive. We won't know for sure whether GMs cars today are better until 3 years from now.

Thats 2 more years than any European make will last. But they're known as hi-quality, even by their owners.

You want to buy a piece of ****? Buy a porsche, mercedes, audi, volkswagen, or bmw. Seriously.

The difference? Those cars handle and perform and look great. Talk to an owner sometime.. they'll brag on the car even as it is being worked on.

.....

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

and right there you proved my point to Mjah.

its the truth though. very rarely does that happen. I've had crappy Ford's and Chevy's breakdown on me and it has happened to many of my friends. I dont find that to be a fluke, but more of a common problem with a large percentage of them.

Now after saying that - I love Buick's and will buy one when I'm old and gray if they are still around

[Dictator]

its the truth though. very rarely does that happen. I've had crappy Ford's and Chevy's breakdown on me and it has happened to many of my friends. I dont find that to be a fluke, but more of a common problem with a large percentage of them.

Now after saying that - I love Buick's and will buy one when I'm old and gray if they are still around

When I was younger, I had a friend...i knew him for 10+ years. all he drove were toyotas. Not ONE lasted him more than 3 years.

I can rattle off a list of people who've driven and owned only american made cars who've never had any major problems.

I can just as easily tell you that you are wrong.

Regardless of country of origin, 9 times out of 10 you are going to get out of a car what you put into it.

[China]

Thats 2 more years than any European make will last. But they're known as hi-quality, even by their owners.

You want to buy a piece of ****? Buy a porsche, mercedes, audi, volkswagen, or bmw. Seriously.

The difference? Those cars handle and perform and look great. Talk to an owner sometime.. they'll brag on the car even as it is being worked on.

.....

I am an owner. I have a VW. It's not reliable, and I'm looking to replace it. I've owned Toyota, Ford, Chevy, Nissan and VW. Of those, the Nissan was the best. The VW has a quality feel to it, but mechanically, it has needed a number of costly repairs, so I'm looking elsewhere.

The problem I have is, what I'm looking for is hard to find. I'd like a true wagon, with power and a stick shift, at a reasonable price. Honda and Toyota no longer make wagons. Subaru's are too small. From experience the VW isn't reliable. BMWs and Mercedes are too expensive. I've found in looking that you can get a Saab wagon with a stick and V6 for a reasonable price, unfortunately their reliability is questionable (thanks GM).

I may be forced to give up on owning a stick shift, and may go to something like a crossover (I don't want an SUV or minivan). I'm thinking maybe the new Toyota Venza. We'll see.

[Elessar78]

Thats the problem! You are not buying replacement parts! Dodge is notorious for falling apart. And I think automobile experience is all relative anyway. It all depends who you talk to and it depends on your own personal experience. If you buy a certain make of car and something happens, you tend to stay away from their cars. My grandparents for example have 2 Chevy pickups with over 220,000 miles on them and still running strong. But someone else will tell you that Chevy is horrible. I take stock in my own experiences and thats about it. I personally hate the money going to pay foreign workers instead of Americans in detroit so I tend to buy American but its just my own personal choice. And yes I know most of the parts are made over seas anyway!

what about the American auto workers in Ohio and Alabama (Honda) and Kentucky (Toyota)? Volvo is owned by Ford... to name a few.