Do we have a problem with father's rights in the U.S.?

[Teller]

uhh what?

You can deal with the husband/wife issues but my background is better suited to the male/female biological differences. I'm sorry you think that because you are older you somehow more competent in every area.

bunch of whiners

Interesting that you seem to be the only one in the thread with that opinion. (And most others I start, FWIW.)

[Prosperity]

Interesting that you seem to be the only one in the thread with that opinion. (And most others I start, FWIW.)

look HH I'm an abrasive person this is nothing new

to me making arguments against biological imperatives for the sake of creating a utopia is whining. That is what you are doing. Now I may be wrong, and I may be an *******, or both, but I don't think I have made some grave insult here. And yes I do realize that you and TB have had child custody issues so this is a "soft" spot. But I've never attacked those arguments, in fact I want you to focus your debate there (which ironically enough is where someone like me would have no say).

[Teller]

look HH I'm an abrasive person this is nothing new

to me making arguments against biological imperatives for the sake of creating a utopia is whining. That is what you are doing. Now I may be wrong, and I may be an *******, or both, but I don't think I have made some grave insult here.

You keep going back to pregnancy alone.

Go back and count how many times in this thread I've referenced that. Because you can CARRY a child, that does not inherently make you a master nurturer. Why would we have abortions and foster homes and orphanages if that was the case?

No one in this thread but you is speaking strictly about biology. I'm not sure why you can't or don't see that.

And I'm not gravely insulted. Not even minimally. A little frustrated maybe, but I frustrate easily.

[HighOnHendrix]

Bottom line is that dudes get hosed on this kind of thing.

[twa]

Bottom line is that dudes get hosed on this kind of thing.

Kinda like fathers day vs mothers day

Or say anniversary presents,wedding rings ect.

How many guys out there got a more expensive wedding ring than their wife?...I did:silly:

Life ain't equal,neither are laws

[Redskins Diehard]

uhh what?

You can deal with the husband/wife issues but my background is better suited to the male/female biological differences. I'm sorry you think that because you are older you somehow more competent in every area. I don't care how many kids or how many wives you've had, I know something about the biological differences in the processes. Ok smart guy?

bunch of whiners

Interesting that you seem to be the only one in the thread with that opinion. (And most others I start, FWIW.)

Well I don't agree that you are a whiner. But I do agree 100% with his premise that there are biological differences between fathers and mothers. I think the fact that the female can feed the baby with her body is a clear illustration of that which goes beyond the "physical" piece of bearing a child. I think it shows that NATURE views each parent as having a different responsibility...otherwise we would be able to feed them also.

[DeanCollins]

Bottom line is that dudes get hosed on this kind of thing.

This true 99.9% percent of the time. And that leads to other problems like intentional pregnancies followed by divorce, for the child support, alimony, and the unequitible division of assets. It's such an easy out, that the woman don't really have to work at the relationship, compromise etc... And the higher the income of the father (not a problem for H_H :laugh:) just kidding, generally the worse the situation because of greedy divorce attorneys.

[Thiebear]

uhh what?

You can deal with the husband/wife issues but my background is better suited to the male/female biological differences. I'm sorry you think that because you are older you somehow more competent in every area. I don't care how many kids or how many wives you've had, I know something about the biological differences in the processes. Ok smart guy?

bunch of whiners

I base it on life issues and having to deal with it on a daily basis for the last 5 years being a single dad left with an 11month old girl and a 4yr old girl. But yes, a single kid that swoops in to call someone a whiner is way more up to date than i am. Smart guy.

[DeanCollins]

Kinda like fathers day vs mothers day

Or say anniversary presents,wedding rings ect.

How many guys out there got a more expensive wedding ring than their wife?...I did:silly:

Pimp

Life ain't equal,neither are laws

no one's disputing the status quo, just that it Shouldn't be unfair for very good reason, like H_H saying here. I know several fathers, that are still with the mothers, that do everthing (cook , clean, shop, spend most of the time with the kids). And if a divorce did occur, even if the judge had the knowledge of the superior parenting by the father, they would still award custody to the mother, which is wrong by any standard.

[Teller]

Well I don't agree that you are a whiner. But I do agree 100% with his premise that there are biological differences between fathers and mothers. I think the fact that the female can feed the baby with her body is a clear illustration of that which goes beyond the "physical" piece of bearing a child. I think it shows that NATURE views each parent as having a different responsibility...otherwise we would be able to feed them also.

*Smartass Warning*

They make breast pumps now. They also make bottles, and formula. And after a year or so, we can feed them "real" food. [/smartass]

Would I rip a two-day old infant from mom? I'm going against my own argument, but no. But what if the kid is two? Or four? Or six? Is mom better equipped to parent, biologically than I am? I don't think so.

[Prosperity]

You keep going back to pregnancy alone.

Go back and count how many times in this thread I've referenced that. Because you can CARRY a child, that does not inherently make you a master nurturer. Why would we have abortions and foster homes and orphanages if that was the case?

well it's the whole 50/50 idea

the reason I bring up biology is that even given a completely 50/50 mother-child and father-child relationship that the biological aspect is what tip the scales towards a heavier investment by the woman.

It simply can't be 50/50 for the biological reasons. Aside from the obvious investment of pregnancy the hormonal effects are felt long after pregnancy.

No one in this thread but you is speaking strictly about biology. I'm not sure why you can't or don't see that.

My concern here is with the argument that the sexes should be treated equally because they are the same. The main difference in sexes is dealing with reproduction, they are so dissimilar here that they should be treated differently.

And, I am sympathetic to your father rights argument as a whole. For example: my girlfriend told me several times that if she got pregnant that she wouldn't get an abortion. Now that to be honest, that scared the **** out of me, but ultimately the baby wasn't going to be growing in me, and even though I am not ready to support one yet she would have pretty much made that decision for me by keeping it. The correct thing to do wouldn't be to claim some 50/50 decision making process, cause ultimately I couldn't force her to get an abortion if she got pregnant. The best thing I could do on my end was to make sure she wouldn't get pregnant.

===

You see, I know there are other parts to your post, I don't have a problem with those parts which is why I don't bring them up. Other people have more constructive stuff to add about child custody issues. But I think you can make those arguments, and make them effectively without resting on some ideal equality which doesn't exist in nature. You don't need equality for fairness. Everyone deserves a fair hearing without natural dispositions being the only criteria. My only point is that those natural dispositions exist.

And I'm not gravely insulted. Not even minimally. A little frustrated maybe, but I frustrate easily.

I just figured you wouldn't care cause you of all people are very familiar with my abrasive posting style. It's good that you aren't insulted, but I should have probably taken more care on this sensitive topic.

I base it on life issues and having to deal with it on a daily basis for the last 5 years being a single dad left with an 11month old girl and a 4yr old girl. But yes, a single kid that swoops in to call someone a whiner is way more up to date than i am. Smart guy.

fine, dandy, talk about that, don't let the fact that they are separate issues get in the way of your righteous indignation

you see despite not being a parent these parts of HH's argument are very applicable to me:

Think about it. At virtually any point she chooses during a pregnancy, our wives or girlfriends can choose to have OUR children terminated. And though we have 1/2 of the vested interest in that new little life, she can do it with or without our permission; and with or without our knowledge.

But say our wife/girlfriend gets knocked up and we don't want the child? What's our recourse? That's right fellas, there isn't one. She owns you for at least 18 years.

I DON'T have your knowledge as a parent, but I don't NEED to support the arguments I am making. They are separate arguments requiring different sets of knowledge.

[Redskins Diehard]

*Smartass Warning*

They make breast pumps now. They also make bottles, and formula. And after a year or so, we can feed them "real" food. [/smartass]

Would I rip a two-day old infant from mom? I'm going against my own argument, but no. But what if the kid is two? Or four? Or six? Is mom better equipped to parent, biologically than I am? I don't think so.

*Smartass Warning*

Go ahead and hook that breast pump up to yourself and see what you get...well other than personal enjoyment

[/smartass]

I think your original argument about axe murders or whatever does the discussion a disservice. It sets a ridiculous threshold where OBVIOUSLY the child should be removed from the custody of the mother.

My argument is not that woman are "better" equipped to parent than men. I think they are "different" equipped to parent than men. Within the human species of the animal kingdom there is a requirement for a man and a woman to make a baby...personnally I think MOTHER nature had a reason for that.

[Teller]

Aside from the obvious investment of pregnancy the hormonal effects are felt long after pregnancy.

Trust me, I know. I have the scars to prove it.

Lib, my friend, my ex and I separated twice. Once about eight months after my oldest daughter was born, and the final time about two months after my youngest was born. It wasn't coincidence. But try telling those hormones that. (Not absolving myself mind you, I made TONS of mistakes too.)

My concern here is with the argument that the sexes should be treated equally because they are the same. The main difference in sexes is dealing with reproduction, they are so dissimilar here that they should be treated differently.

After breastfeeding, my ex and I have the potential at least, to be equally valuable parents IMO.

And, I am sympathetic to your father rights argument as a whole. For example: my girlfriend told me several times that if she got pregnant that she wouldn't get an abortion. Now that to be honest, that scared the **** out of me, but ultimately the baby wasn't going to be growing in me, and even though I am not ready to support one yet she would have pretty much made that decision for me by keeping it. The correct thing to do wouldn't be to claim some 50/50 decision making process, cause ultimately I couldn't force her to get an abortion if she got pregnant. The best thing I could do on my end was to make sure she wouldn't get pregnant.

Maybe I should've left the abortion thing out of this. That really wasn't my focus. It was more a part of the whole. But your point in this area is well taken. The physical sacrifice is hers, no question. I guess I just don't get why one party can chuck responsibility out the window and the other can't.

Believe me, I didn't suffer any physical pain when my daughters were born, but the economic "pain" of exhorbitant child support costs for 18 years i nothing to laugh at.

(And again, I would NEVER even think about abandoning my kids. I just think for men that don't want kids a "male abortion" is not a ridiculous idea.)

You see, I know there are other parts to your post, I don't have a problem with those parts which is why I don't bring them up. Other people have more constructive stuff to add about child custody issues. But I think you can make those arguments, and make them effectively without resting on some ideal equality which doesn't exist in nature. You don't need equality for fairness. Everyone deserves a fair hearing without natural dispositions being the only criteria. My only point is that those natural dispositions exist.

I'm tracking you on this point now. I may disagree, but I understand.

I just figured you wouldn't care cause you of all people are very familiar with my abrasive posting style. It's good that you aren't insulted, but I should have probably taken more care on this sensitive topic.

Thanks, and I like I said, I apologize for reacting with emotion that you're not responsible for.

[Teller]

*Smartass Warning*

Go ahead and hook that breast pump up to yourself and see what you get...well other than personal enjoyment

[/smartass]

I think your original argument about axe murders or whatever does the discussion a disservice. It sets a ridiculous threshold where OBVIOUSLY the child should be removed from the custody of the mother.

My argument is not that woman are "better" equipped to parent than men. I think they are "different" equipped to parent than men. Within the human species of the animal kingdom there is a requirement for a man and a woman to make a baby...personnally I think MOTHER nature had a reason for that.

One word: Seahorse.

[twa]

Pimp

no one's disputing the status quo, just that it Shouldn't be unfair for very good reason, like H_H saying here. I know several fathers, that are still with the mothers, that do everthing (cook , clean, shop, spend most of the time with the kids). And if a divorce did occur, even if the judge had the knowledge of the superior parenting by the father, they would still award custody to the mother, which is wrong by any standard.

ols

I certainly agree there is a lot of room for improvement in how fathers are treated under the law.

I complain about it often aaand make sure my representatives are aware of the issues.

it's the only way change is gonna happen.

[Teller]

I complain about it often aaand make sure my representatives are aware of the issues.

it's the only way change is gonna happen.

:applause:

I might have to get motivated and do that.

[Redskins Diehard]

One word: Seahorse.

Not sure at all how that applies...unless of course we are talking about parental rights among creatures of the sea. And I did qualify my post with "among the human species"...

[Teller]

Not sure at all how that applies...unless of course we are talking about parental rights among creatures of the sea. And I did qualify my post with "among the human species"...

Sorry. Should have included a .

I guess I just don't get how a woman is still, biologically, a better parent when the child is old enough to no longer depend on her for nourishment.

[Sniffler]

Yes, men get screwed over all the time... I watched my mother torture my father with visitation\child-support my whole life. While the system is much better than it was in the past, it still has its flaws... My best friend has and is going through custody battles right now (w/ 2 different women). He basically has to jump through hoops and go to extraordinary lengths to prove his case, whereas, the mother of the child is generally given the benefit of the doubt. While I have heard that it really depends on the judge... it shouldn't be that way... it should be equal 100% of the time.

[Ax]

Bottom line is, it's a hard problem to correct. There are so many variables to each case that trying something different has as much potential to make things worse, as it does better. I can't type fast enough, or long enough, to tell half of the horror stories I've been part of, or at least witnessed, in my life, concerning the rights, or more accurately, the lack thereof, of men in relation to this subject.

It's a hot potato that nobody has the guts to try and tackle. Kind of like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid. That's why the same old antiquated systems of dealing with all of them remain in place.

It sucks, but the answer is really that simple.:2cents:

[rdsknbill]

A Christian society does this? Are you kidding me? On what basis do you claim that this is the "Christian" way of doing things?

Hail Mary, full of grace.

The Lord is with thee.

,Blessed art thou amongst women

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

[Sniffler]

Sorry. Should have included a .

I guess I just don't get how a woman is still, biologically, a better parent when the child is old enough to no longer depend on her for nourishment.

As a teacher, I see bad parenting more frequently than most people. Most of the time (not always)... in the single parent families I encounter, the mother is usually the one with custody and usually the one who is doing the bad parenting...

[Teller]

As a teacher, I see bad parenting more frequently than most people. Most of the time (not always)... in the single parent families I encounter the mother is usually the one who with custody and usually the one who is doing the bad parenting...

Heh.

Where there's a bad kid, there's usually a bad parent. Sometimes two.

[Sniffler]

Heh.

Where there's a bad kid, there's usually a bad parent. Sometimes two.

More often than you'd think... kids crave structure and, as odd as it sounds, discpline... most of the bad parenting situations I deal with, usually the parent does not provide either on a consistent basis.

[Teller]

More often than you'd think... kids crave structure and, as odd as it sounds, discpline... most of the bad parenting situations I deal with, usually the parent does not provide either on a consistent basis.

Fortunately my ex is a teacher as well, which I think contributes to her excellent parenting skills. (Other than not letting me see the kids. I don't think she has any clue how much that's hurting them.)