Mr. S Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I keep reading threads bashing Snyder and Cerrato. I'm not the biggest fan of Cerrato myself. However, as far as I remember reading, and I do follow this stuff pretty closely, Gibbs was the Head Coach and President of Football Operations. I thought I read, or that the title implies, that he has the ultimate say in personnel decisions. So why the blame on Cerrato/Snyder for the infamous Lloyd and Duckett trades, or the signing of Randle El or Archuleta? Gibbs is hailed for making the signings of Springs, Griffin, Marcus Washington, Casey Rabach, and making the trades for Portis and Santana Moss, and the draft day trade for Cooley. The only thing he is bashed for, but only to a slight extent, is trading for Brunell. But Snyderatto is hated for signing Archuleta, Randle El to an extent, trading for Lloyd and Duckett, signing Al Saunders, and the general suckage that was 2006, and the failures for now. Al Saunders is claimed as a Snyder forced hiring, but there is no way someone with a good o-line that we did have in 2006 and a RB in Portis could not make that offense go in 2006. He had lesser talent in Kansas City, slightly better o-line, but worse WR talent. I have my qualms with the 2008 draft class, mainly Fred Davis and JT Tryon, but for the most part, this could be a solid class to build around. It assumes a lot, but hoenstly, the Patriots or other good drafters don't hit on every pick either, but they typically end up with 8-10 and assume half will. If Horton, Moore, Rinehart, and Thomas or Kelly work out for us, this was a good draft class. The only thing we know is that Gibbs was conservative on offense, but that's it. Otherwise, it just seems good hiring decisions and draft picks are his doing, but bad ones are Snyeratto's. It's sacrilege to an extent, but as a younger fan, I have a much shorter leash than older fans when it comes to Gibbs or any Redskins coach. I'm all for Zorn staying another year and seeing what happens, and if he has a 9-7 record, we should keep him for a third unless it's just a stumbling 9-7 like 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailSkinz1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Because some of us are convinced that Snyder is the one who is actually making the decisions. Maybe not all, but many of them. Doesn't matter what title someone has, Snyder's trumps them all. My understanding is that Archuletta was actually Gregg Williams' call. Snyder is the one who wanted guys like Jeff George, Bruce Smith, Deion, etc. He built his reputation on those players and has done nothing to over come it, in my opinion. The one time he had a coach in here (Schottenheimer) who ran the show, he lasted only one year. There's a lot of blame to go around for the past several years, but Gibbs at least did more in four years than a lot of others have done. The more I see, the more I'm convinced that our owner is our biggest problem. We've gotten away from what made this franchise great. Hail, H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 It's a very good question and one I'm sure will be fully explored. The answer, though, is not a very clear, distinct one. The front office hierarchy was one, to me, shrouded in ambiguity. While Gibbs had the title of Team President, Dan, I'm sure, had ample say as did Vinny. Now, as far as attributing certain personnel decisions to a particular person whether it be Dan, Joe or Vinny, that is an even murkier proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDevinThomas Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Gibbsy Wibbsy Was a Bear.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Gibbs had total control while he was here. He was in charge of the draft. Gibbs doesn't even like the draft. He never has like the idea of getting young talent. All those draft picks thrown away was on Gibbs, not Vinny. Vinny drafted 10 players. That wouldn't happen under Gibbs. Loved Gibbs to death, but it his fault. Fans don't want to admit it because of who Gibbs is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I keep reading threads bashing Snyder and Cerrato. I'm not the biggest fan of Cerrato myself. However, as far as I remember reading, and I do follow this stuff pretty closely, Gibbs was the Head Coach and President of Football Operations. I thought I read, or that the title implies, that he has the ultimate say in personnel decisions.So why the blame on Cerrato/Snyder for the infamous Lloyd and Duckett trades, or the signing of Randle El or Archuleta? Gibbs is hailed for making the signings of Springs, Griffin, Marcus Washington, Casey Rabach, and making the trades for Portis and Santana Moss, and the draft day trade for Cooley. The only thing he is bashed for, but only to a slight extent, is trading for Brunell. But Snyderatto is hated for signing Archuleta, Randle El to an extent, trading for Lloyd and Duckett, signing Al Saunders, and the general suckage that was 2006, and the failures for now. Al Saunders is claimed as a Snyder forced hiring, but there is no way someone with a good o-line that we did have in 2006 and a RB in Portis could not make that offense go in 2006. He had lesser talent in Kansas City, slightly better o-line, but worse WR talent. I have my qualms with the 2008 draft class, mainly Fred Davis and JT Tryon, but for the most part, this could be a solid class to build around. It assumes a lot, but hoenstly, the Patriots or other good drafters don't hit on every pick either, but they typically end up with 8-10 and assume half will. If Horton, Moore, Rinehart, and Thomas or Kelly work out for us, this was a good draft class. The only thing we know is that Gibbs was conservative on offense, but that's it. Otherwise, it just seems good hiring decisions and draft picks are his doing, but bad ones are Snyeratto's. It's sacrilege to an extent, but as a younger fan, I have a much shorter leash than older fans when it comes to Gibbs or any Redskins coach. I'm all for Zorn staying another year and seeing what happens, and if he has a 9-7 record, we should keep him for a third unless it's just a stumbling 9-7 like 2007. The fans must be patient with the younger players. It takes time. Be patient. I know it will work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Based on extrapolating about the FO in articles, seemed to be a variation of this: Williams and D staff would give them a wish list. Saunders and O staff ditto Vinny with his staff would give them options based on what they asked for along with their grades. Then Williams, Saunders, and Gibbs would tell them who they wanted. Then Danny goes negotiating with Vinny and they decide how much to pay what picks to give up, etc. I recall reading that Saunders wanted Lloyd and Duckett. If so Saunders and Williams long with Gibbs had their hand in asking for players who didn't work out, and Vinny and Danny were the ones who arguably screwed up for overpaying for thier coaches wish list. As for Gibbs yeah he has said to death he likes veterans over rookies and plays up the draft as a crap shoot. I suspect that actually Vinny is closer to the overall point of view on this board more than Gibbs or for that matter Snyder was -- Vinny seems to like the draft, when he was on his radio show with Kiper, he seemed to be having a blast talking college football and going over players. I suspect its Snyder who loves the star power and Gibbs who loves veterans, who powered the FA over the draft drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why was Vinny on the payroll if he didn't have some sort of responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. S Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why was Vinny on the payroll if he didn't have some sort of responsibility? scouting and evaluation. Gibbs is old, and I still think he had the majority of say in final decisions while he was here. That is the main point I'm arguing, that Cerrato at least is given a bad rap for the bad moves we made, but Gibbs gets credit for the good moves. Either way, you need a talented scouting staff for draft picks and free agents. Just cause you have a coach as president, he still needs to delegate tasks to others. As from the responses on here, it seems mixed. I'm definitely patient with Zorn, and like I said, even if half of our draft picks from 2008 pan out, including one of the WR's, it was a good year. I just think that we need to be a bit more patient with Cerrato as well. We had at least 4 former/current head coaches on the staff with Gibbs in Gibbs, Williams, Saunders, and Bugel. Maybe Saunders was never actually a head coach. I know thye had their say though, which was also a problem. Considering all these problems, I just think SNyderatto get a bad rap. Assuming we put the 2006 free agency/draft class on Gibbs instead of Snyder, the only time Snyder really did screw up himself was in 2000 with that (former) superstar team and bringing in pointless coaches aside from Schottenheimer. He obviously waited a long time before hiring Zorn as head coach, which alone makes him better than his previous knee jerk hirings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santana_4_prez Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Gibbs was responsible for the players who performed well, and Cerrato for those who failed. At least, that is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilsu Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Assuming we put the 2006 free agency/draft class on Gibbs instead of Snyder, the only time Snyder really did screw up himself was in 2000 with that (former) superstar team and bringing in pointless coaches aside from Schottenheimer. Come on... 2000 - Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George, firing Norv Turner when the team was still in the playoff hunt. 2002 - Gatorskins, Jeremiah Trotter, Jesse Armstead. 2003 - Trade a 1st for Coles, Gardner was coming off a 1000 yard season, and we draft Taylor Jacobs, and we trade a pick for Trung. 2004 - The Champ Bailey debacle, Mike Barrow, Mark Brunell. 2005 - Nehemiah Broughton and Manuel White. 2006 - Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett. Just horrible. And let's not forget how all this constant restructuring continues to send the team into a deeper hole every year. Jon Jansen's contract should have been done after this year. Instead, he's now signed through 2011 and is a massive cap liability. Randy Thomas should be done after 2009, but he too is now signed for much longer and is also a massive cap liability. Let's not go into other players... Like how Clinton Portis' constant restructuring has completely screwed up how much money we can spend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. S Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Come on...2000 - Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George, firing Norv Turner when the team was still in the playoff hunt. 2002 - Gatorskins, Jeremiah Trotter, Jesse Armstead. 2003 - Trade a 1st for Coles, Gardner was coming off a 1000 yard season, and we draft Taylor Jacobs, and we trade a pick for Trung. 2004 - The Champ Bailey debacle, Mike Barrow, Mark Brunell. 2005 - Nehemiah Broughton and Manuel White. 2006 - Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett. Just horrible. And let's not forget how all this constant restructuring continues to send the team into a deeper hole every year. Jon Jansen's contract should have been done after this year. Instead, he's now signed through 2011 and is a massive cap liability. Randy Thomas should be done after 2009, but he too is now signed for much longer and is also a massive cap liability. Let's not go into other players... Like how Clinton Portis' constant restructuring has completely screwed up how much money we can spend... Again, I already mentioned the 2000 period. 2002 and 2003 was just as much Spurrier as it was Snyder. The Champ Bailey debacle is not much of a debacle as I'm happy with Portis, as are most, and our secondary is as strong as ever. Brunell is all Gibbs and we know that. Mike Barrow and Trotter were smart moves at the time. Barrow was injured, how is that anyone's fault? That's just like saying Sean Taylor was a bad pick cause he's now dead. Nemo and White in 2005? Again, those smell highly of Gibbs picks, just like Jacobs smelled of SPurrier. Plus, they were 4th and 5th rounders, so whatever. Archuleta, Lloyd and Duckett, all a combo of Williams and Saunders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Come on...2000 - Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George, firing Norv Turner when the team was still in the playoff hunt. 2002 - Gatorskins, Jeremiah Trotter, Jesse Armstead. 2003 - Trade a 1st for Coles, Gardner was coming off a 1000 yard season, and we draft Taylor Jacobs, and we trade a pick for Trung. 2004 - The Champ Bailey debacle, Mike Barrow, Mark Brunell. 2005 - Nehemiah Broughton and Manuel White. 2006 - Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett. Just horrible. And most of that has little to do with Snyder and a lot to do with the coaching staff and what they wanted. For example, Marvin Lewis wanted Trotter, thinking that he could turn him into Ray Lewis. It is why in the end letting the coaching staff doing the shopping is often not a good idea. Even Joe Gibbs, who was pretty disiplined most of the time, let things get out of hand in 2006 and exceeded his reach. And let's not forget how all this constant restructuring continues to send the team into a deeper hole every year. Jon Jansen's contract should have been done after this year. Instead, he's now signed through 2011 and is a massive cap liability. Randy Thomas should be done after 2009, but he too is now signed for much longer and is also a massive cap liability. Let's not go into other players... Like how Clinton Portis' constant restructuring has completely screwed up how much money we can spend... Yet, we probably can free up about $20m of cap space by letting go of quite a few vets who have come close to reaching end of life here (Springs, Taylor, Washington, Griffin, Daniels, etc). Yep, big massive hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 This is something that should be looked into by an investigative reporter someday. Maybe when someone is interviewing Gibbs for his memoirs he'll finally own up to it and say "Snyder controlled everything all the time...we just thought it was easier to share the credit in public because Dan's skin is so thin." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Snyder is the one who wanted guys like Jeff George, Bruce Smith, Deion, etc. He built his reputation on those players and has done nothing to over come it, in my opinion. The one time he had a coach in here (Schottenheimer) who ran the show, he lasted only one year. This is key. Snyder did make all of the personnel decisions in 2000. As I have read many times, he let Gibbs be the final word when he was here and lets Cerrato do it now. The George, Smith, and Deion decisions were terrible. Snyder's admitted that. It was 9 years ago. I wasn't in love with the decisions Schottenheimer made either, but what are you going to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Gibbs was responsible for the players who performed well, and Cerrato for those who failed. At least, that is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside I'll go ahead and second this comment!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Come on...2000 - Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George, firing Norv Turner when the team was still in the playoff hunt. 2002 - Gatorskins, Jeremiah Trotter, Jesse Armstead. 2003 - Trade a 1st for Coles, Gardner was coming off a 1000 yard season, and we draft Taylor Jacobs, and we trade a pick for Trung. 2004 - The Champ Bailey debacle, Mike Barrow, Mark Brunell. 2005 - Nehemiah Broughton and Manuel White. 2006 - Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett. 2000 was terrible and Snyder gets most (if not all) of the credit on that one. 2002 was clearly a situation where the front office -- like many front offices -- gave the coaches what they wanted. Trotter and Armstead were not disasters. 2003: Coles was a stud that first year. We traded a 30-something back-up OL and a 4th for Canidate, who was a first round pick just two years earlier. 2004: The Champ Bailey debacle was one of the better moves we've made. We ended up with Portis and Shawn Springs. They ended up with the endlessly whiny Champ Bailey and Tatum Bell. When healthy, I still believe that Springs is the better all around CB. Mike Barrow got hurt. We had a crystal ball? Brunell was all Joe Gibbs. 100% his call. 2005: Mid- and late-round picks? C'mon. 2006: AA was all Gregg Williams. Cerrato protested and lost. Lloyd was all Gibbs, who wanted a big WR. Duckett was REALLY all Gibbs, who knew him from his association with Atlanta pre-Skins and coveted the big, bruising back. We can also thank Gibbs for Chris Cooley (the prototype H-back), Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, Jason Campbell (jury out), Santana Moss, Randy Thomas, London Fletcher (via GW), Carlos Rogers, Rocky McIntosh ... he wasn't all bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 How would anyone on here truly know? Sure...we know what we are fed by the Skins PR machine, but unless anyone here was behind the closed doors at Redskins Park and can prove otherwise, I still think Snyder and Cerrato had equal power to Gibbs...if not more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 How would anyone on here truly know? Sure...we know what we are fed by the Skins PR machine, but unless anyone here was behind the closed doors at Redskins Park and can prove otherwise, I still think Snyder and Cerrato had equal power to Gibbs...if not more. On what basis? You open by saying that none of us truly know -- which is true to some extent -- then you state an opinion which at least SEEMS more based on your own personal biases (which I also can't truly know) than any facts. You have to ask yourself this: why would Gibbs come out of retirement to share power? He was the driving force for getting Beathard (the man who hired him) outta town b/c he wanted more personnel power. Why would the team sign Archuleta over Cerrato's objections if Cerrato had equal or greater power? Why is it that the first draft in like 20 years that we've had double-digit picks happens once Gibbs leaves the scene? Not saying that Cerrato's great and Gibbs was lousy, but the notion that Snyder and Cerrato shared power equally with Gibbs doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It could be so, but I just don't know why Gibbs would accept that (when he obviously didn't have to). Gibbs was used to working with a very involved, very opinionated owner in Cooke, so having one of those around (especially one who worshipped him) probably wasn't an issue for Gibbs. But to share power with a guy who hadn't been a GM at all? I think Gibbs is a lot more savvy and stronger willed than that. Yr right: we'll never know, but the evidence we have has Gibbs Gibbs Gibbs written all over it -- for good and bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 On what basis? You open by saying that none of us truly know -- which is true to some extent -- then you state an opinion which at least SEEMS more based on your own personal biases (which I also can't truly know) than any facts. I said I don't know, but I THINK. That is a personal opinion. This team was mediocre long before Gibbs came back, and is mediocre so far after he left. The constant for the better part of the 'Decade of Mediocrity' is Dan and Vinny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Who cares, we were mediocre before Gibbs, mediocre with Gibbs and are now mediocre without him again. Let's move on from the past and concentrate on the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I said I don't know, but I THINK. That is a personal opinion. Course, your thoughts have no basis. It sounds like rationalization on your part to try to absolve any blame from Gibbs, when Gibbs does deserve some blame. This team was mediocre long before Gibbs came back, and is mediocre so far after he left. The constant for the better part of the 'Decade of Mediocrity' is Dan and Vinny. Kinda early to judge post-Gibbs, but most of the problem pre-Gibbs was not having a plan that lasted longer than a couple years and having it completely ripped up with each new head coach. At least now we have guys willing to build on what came before and actually have players worth building with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilsu Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 2000 was terrible and Snyder gets most (if not all) of the credit on that one.2002 was clearly a situation where the front office -- like many front offices -- gave the coaches what they wanted. Trotter and Armstead were not disasters. I'll just reply to this one since the replies are sort of similar. First of all, absolving blame from Cerrato because it was the coaches who wanted certain players is just asinine. Like it has already been mentioned, Cerrato (and Snyder) were the only constants through all the years except 2001, and what exactly was Cerrato getting paid to do if he is blameless? Meanwhile, you don't pay Jeremiah Trotter and Jesse Armstead the amount of money we paid for just one year of acceptable service and then cut them both after their second year. That's called a disaster. 2003: Coles was a stud that first year. We traded a 30-something back-up OL and a 4th for Canidate, who was a first round pick just two years earlier. Sorry I was confusing. I mentioned Coles along to Gardner to show why drafting Taylor Jacobs was not really a draft pick that was particularly needed at the time due to other needs we had. As for Trung Canidate... I hope you're not using the rationale that he was a first round pick as a reason why trading a 4th for Canidate was a good move? You don't grade a veteran player by what round they were drafted in. 2004: The Champ Bailey debacle was one of the better moves we've made. We ended up with Portis and Shawn Springs. They ended up with the endlessly whiny Champ Bailey and Tatum Bell. When healthy, I still believe that Springs is the better all around CB. Mike Barrow got hurt. We had a crystal ball? Brunell was all Joe Gibbs. 100% his call. You don't trade a franchise-tagged cornerback that was drawing high interest AND a second round pick for a runningback. Meanwhile, Shawn Springs plays in a better defense than Champ Bailey and no way is he better than Champ. And that's a great qualifier of "when healthy". He was considered injury-prone when we picked him up and he's considered injury prone now. Not to mention, we're constantly looking for his replacement starting in 2006 when we tried to trade him for Dre Bly. 2005: Mid- and late-round picks? C'mon. Other teams use their fourth and seventh rounders to take chances at players like Asante Samuels and Jared Allen and Trent Cole and Jeremiah Ratliff and on and on... Even more teams use their fourth and seventh rounders to pick up key role players that actually contribute. Even the Redskins found Chris Horton in the seventh round this year, along with other recent late-round picks in Anthony Montgomery and Kedric Golston and Kareem Moore, players that may not currently or ever be star players but still were able to contribute on the field. But I guess you're right. Mid and late round picks don't matter. Who cares if we misuse those picks. Welcome to the Washington Redskins. 2006: AA was all Gregg Williams. Cerrato protested and lost. Lloyd was all Gibbs, who wanted a big WR. Duckett was REALLY all Gibbs, who knew him from his association with Atlanta pre-Skins and coveted the big, bruising back.We can also thank Gibbs for Chris Cooley (the prototype H-back), Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, Jason Campbell (jury out), Santana Moss, Randy Thomas, London Fletcher (via GW), Carlos Rogers, Rocky McIntosh ... he wasn't all bad. It's unfortunate that us Redskins fans are so conditioned to our team being mired in mediocrity, we attach ourselves to players rather than the team itself. The sum of the parts is more important than the parts of the sum. This is something many Redskins fans have trouble grasping which is why they tried to rationalize how great our front office in the past by saying, "What about our good signings! We got Shawn Springs, Marcus Washington, Andre Carter!" It's not about what good players you picked up, it's about how good a TEAM you constructed. These are the sentiments I've had for a long time now and have even stated as such and was only validated further by Scott Pioli's quotes once he became the GM for the Chiefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD5 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why was Vinny on the payroll if he didn't have some sort of responsibility? For the same reason he is on the payroll right now. Snyder gave him a 97% loss on his investment in shares of SIX stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 STILL Gibbs bashing? Name a good player on our team not named "Chris Horton" who isn't on our team because of Gibbs or his staff. Thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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