Who was in charge during 2004-2007, Joe Gibbs or Cerrato?

[HailGreen28]

STILL Gibbs bashing?

Name a good player on our team not named "Chris Horton" who isn't on our team because of Gibbs or his staff.

Thanks for playing.

QFT.

*but just to nitpick and win a cookie - Chris Samuels

But you're right, Gibbs did far more good here in 4 years than Vinny and Danny ever did. Even with Blloyd and AA. Gibbs draft skills and talent evaluation, (not even his strongest suit, Gibbs is better as a coach and motivator), are head and shoulders above Ceratto's. The playoff record (just making it) speaks for itself.

All this is another reason for Vinny to be gone, to bring in someone like Pioli or Parcells. Damn I still can't believe "Redskins 1" wouldn't fly to nab either of those two like they do free agents.

[Shilsu]

Yet, we probably can free up about $20m of cap space by letting go of quite a few vets who have come close to reaching end of life here (Springs, Taylor, Washington, Griffin, Daniels, etc). Yep, big massive hole.

Right, because finding replacements for all those players is so easy, especially at some of the highest paid positions of #1 CB, pass-rushing DE, #1 DT. Not to mention all of our other needs in the starting lineup and depth-wise.

[AKM311]

Right, because finding replacements for all those players is so easy, especially at some of the highest paid positions of #1 CB, pass-rushing DE, #1 DT. Not to mention all of our other needs in the starting lineup and depth-wise.

Right, because the Washington Redskins can never rebuild. We have to contend EVERY YEAR and we have to be in perfect position every year.

You do realize every team has to rebuild at some point. We are in that stage now. Not by cap means, but by youth means. It happens to every team and it is our time now. Deal with it and be a fan!

[Shilsu]

Right, because the Washington Redskins can never rebuild. We have to contend EVERY YEAR and we have to be in perfect position every year.

You do realize every team has to rebuild at some point. We are in that stage now. Not by cap means, but by youth means. It happens to every team and it is our time now. Deal with it and be a fan!

Right, because no team can ever build a consistent winner.

Meanwhile the Redskins have been seemingly rebuilding for the past 17 years ago.

[jivelikenice]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Gibbs made some good moves while he was running ths show here but he definitely was hit or miss:

Here are some big errors made that you can attribute to Gibbs:

1. Trading a 3rd round pick for Brunell before he was going to get cut

2. Trading a 5th round pick for James Thrash

3. The Portis trade was not a mistake, but the price they paid was too much for Portis. We should not have had to throw in our 2nd round pick

4. Signing Randel El

5. Trading a 3rd and 4th round pick for Brandon Lloyd

6. Signing Archuleta/ Letting Clark go (look at how much money/ picks we've had to use at this position when we simply could have re-signed Clark for a nominal price in comparison)

7. Trading two 2nd round picks for Rocky McIntosh

8. Trading a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round pick for Jason Campbell (Unless he proves this coming year he is THE guy, then this was a huge mistake)

9. Drafting two safeties with top 6 picks (You just can't use picks that high on the safety position twice in a 4 year span)

10. Drafting for need instead of BPA when he took Rogers over Merriman and Ware

11. Letting Pierce go (While the Moss deal has worked out well, trading Coles and incurring the cap hit we did tied up cap space that could have been used towards re-signing Antonio Pierce and/or Smoot. We could have then drafted the BPA instead of forcing the pick on Rogers in the '05 draft)

While Gibbs did decently with the picks we had, look at all of the picks that we traded away over this span. Our lack of productive young players on this team at this point and the gap between the vets and the '08 rookies is a direct result of having so few picks over this 4 year span. We may have 2-3 lineman in the pipeline ready to go if we didn't move so many picks for vets/ unproductive players.

Not to discount what he did do here as he was responsible for acquiring Moss, Cooley, Sean Taylor, Fletcher, Washington, Springs, Griff, etc...but personnel decisions were 50/50 under his watch.

That being said, I think the point of this thread was that Gibbs was in control over the previous 4 years so why are we blaming Vinny for the shortfalls of the FO over that span? This was his first year with full control so why aren't we allowing his '08 draft class to develop before judging him?

[wildbill1952]

Gibbs had total control while he was here. He was in charge of the draft. Gibbs doesn't even like the draft. He never has like the idea of getting young talent. All those draft picks thrown away was on Gibbs, not Vinny. Vinny drafted 10 players. That wouldn't happen under Gibbs. Loved Gibbs to death, but it his fault. Fans don't want to admit it because of who Gibbs is.

I certainly don't know and won't claim to know. But this year Vinny will be able to draft only 4 and only he is now in charge. He made the horrible trade of our second round pick for Taylor. This trade isn't horrible because Taylor got hurt and couldn't play up to his potential. It's a horrible pick because the Dolphins would have taken a 3rd round pick or lower. They wanted to get rid of Taylor while they could get something for him. It just shows really bad negotiating skills and a real bad evaluator of talent.

Even during the Gibbs era, Vinny was in charge of the scouts. His job would have been to keep tabs on the talent in the league and, if a need came available because of injury, he was supposed to know who was available to fill the need. His job would have been to evaluate the talent, based on the scouts' input, of anyone the team brought in through FA. His job would have been to overrule an errant talent evaluation.

Admittedly, if a HOF coach like Gibbs, were to say he wanted somebody, Vinny would have had to have tremendous courage or confidence to say no. But at some point, he would have had to give the green light. He gave the green light on some of the worst FA acquisitions in the history of the game. At a minimum, he lacked the courage to say no, if Gibbs was the person making the calls.

And there's the Snyder factor. How much a part did the owner play? Again, telling the emperor he has no clothes is not known as a way to move forward in the hierarchy of an organization. But it would have been Vinny's job to advise him against the stupid picks. He did not do it effectively enough to stop them.

None of us knows who pulled the trigger. None of us knows who loaded the gun. All I know is Vinny was in the room when they crippled my Redskins. I say hang 'em all.

[jivelikenice]

It's a horrible pick because the Dolphins would have taken a 3rd round pick or lower.

Please explain how you know this to be true because I have not seen anything written that supports this?

The JT trade ended up being a bad move, and one made out of desparation but that desparation was partially a result of having so few picks during Gibbs 2.0.

[SirClintonPortis]

Vinny was director of Player Personnel from 1995 until he left San Francisco and here in Washington from 2002 to just last year.

A Director of Player Personnel does the following, according to Scott Campbell:

http://theredskinsblog.com/2008/08/06/any-questions-for-scott-campbell-director-of-player-personnel/

Director of Player Personnel is one of those titles that a lot of people have heard, but I know that I, at least, have never been completely sure what the job entails.

My responsibility is preparing the team for all aspects of player personnel acquisition. There’s generally two sides of it: the pro personnel side, which covers scouting other teams in the NFL, advance scouting your opponents, evaluating the waiver wire, and evaluating players for trades and free agency. You have to have every player in the league evaluated, but especially free agents.

The other side is the college side, which is draft preparation. I’ve worked as director on both sides, in Chicago and here, until I was promoted to overseeing the whole department now.

It’s generally about doing all the research, analysis, and preparation for all aspects of personnel.

So if Vinny had a major role in the busts that came here, he also had a significant role in the solid contributors that came here since he was responsible for evaluating them in the first place.

[wildbill1952]

Please explain how you know this to be true because I have not seen anything written that supports this?

The JT trade ended up being a bad move, and one made out of desparation but that desparation was partially a result of having so few picks during Gibbs 2.0.

Parcells + 12 year vet + they already had a DE on their radar that they picked up as the first pick in the second round. The Miami papers were full of stories about the re-vamping of the team after Parcells got here. (Jupiter is South Florida.). The Palm Beach Post, not known for its sports section, also mentioned that they were shopping Taylor around. The old Dolphins, including Zack Thomas, all knew they were history. Reports of Parcells first two weeks were full of stories about how he was upset with Taylor for being on "Dancing with the Stars" instead of being in training. When you're shopping a guy you're looking for highest bidder. We could have gotten by without taylor, but they pulled the trigger. We outbid the other guys. It was stupid and the typical overkill when we go after someone.

Plus who expects to get a second round pick for a guy in his last one to two years who is well past his last pro Bowl? It would be like us expecting a second rounder for trading Smoot. (I love Smoot, but really...) Only the Redskins.

[jivelikenice]

Parcells + 12 year vet + they already had a DE on their radar that they picked up as the first pick in the second round. The Miami papers were full of stories about the re-vamping of the team after Parcells got here. (Jupiter is South Florida.). The Palm Beach Post, not known for its sports section, also mentioned that they were shopping Taylor around. The old Dolphins, including Zack Thomas, all knew they were history. Reports of Parcells first two weeks were full of stories about how he was upset with Taylor for being on "Dancing with the Stars" instead of being in training. When you're shopping a guy you're looking for highest bidder. We could have gotten by without taylor, but they pulled the trigger. We outbid the other guys. It was stupid and the typical overkill when we go after someone.

Plus who expects to get a second round pick for a guy in his last one to two years who is well past his last pro Bowl? It would be like us expecting a second rounder for trading Smoot. (I love Smoot, but really...) Only the Redskins.

Nobody doubts that he was available via trade, but please find me one source that says he could have been had for a 3rd round pick. If the price had eventually come down, I'm sure many other teams would have entered the fray willing to give up a #3 but the bottom line is that there was never any indication that the Dolphins would have taken a 3rd.

[REEGSKINS]

i love me some joe gibbs but he was a horrible president of operations.

[Skins PR]

Here is my best educated guess...

When Gibbs came here he was supposedly given total control. However we certainly made a lot of moves that seemed very Snyderesque. Gibbs even came out later and said that personnel moves were a joint effort between himself, Cerrato, and Snyder.

The attempted trade for Lance Briggs, where Briggs' agent came up to Snyder at dinner and we were suddenly in negotiations is pretty clear proof that Gibbs didn't have total control and that Snyder had his little fingers into everything as usual.

Some guys were clearly players that Gibbs wanted, some were guys that Williams wanted, and some moves just reaked of Lil' Danny. I bet they all had some input but in the end, Snyder was boss and had final say on all moves.

[jivelikenice]

Here is my best educated guess...

When Gibbs came here he was supposedly given total control. However we certainly made a lot of moves that seemed very Snyderesque. Gibbs even came out later and said that personnel moves were a joint effort between himself, Cerrato, and Snyder.

The attempted trade for Lance Briggs, where Briggs' agent came up to Snyder at dinner and we were suddenly in negotiations is pretty clear proof that Gibbs didn't have total control and that Snyder had his little fingers into everything as usual.

Some guys were clearly players that Gibbs wanted, some were guys that Williams wanted, and some moves just reaked of Lil' Danny. I bet they all had some input but in the end, Snyder was boss and had final say on all moves.

I'm positive Snyder had some input here, but if you look back at it would it have been terrible if we landed Briggs and a late 1st round pick for Landry?

Also, while some moves definitely seemed like Snyder type moves, the Brunell, Thrash, and Duckett trades all reeked Gibbs the Team President and those moves cost us a total of 4 draft picks....

[wildbill1952]

Nobody doubts that he was available via trade, but please find me one source that says he could have been had for a 3rd round pick. If the price had eventually come down, I'm sure many other teams would have entered the fray willing to give up a #3 but the bottom line is that there was never any indication that the Dolphins would have taken a 3rd.

The inidcations were loud and clear that Parcells wanted the old guys gone. Everybody seeme to know it but the Redskins. When you look at something you want, you make an offer. The other party makes a counteroffer. If the object you want is not at the right price, you walk away. But you have to be willing to walk away.

1. Parcells was upset with Taylor and publicly questioned his commitment to the game.

2. Zack Thomas knew he was gone, the most popular Dolphin by far.

3. Taylor was not as popular as Thomas.

4. The Dolphins were scouting Merlon as a DE and drafted him and another DE. Taylor was excess baggage,

5. Nobody expects to get a second round pick for a 12 year vet, even if it's Jerry Rice or Joe Montana.

6. Parcells took a second round pick because the Redskins gave it to him. Other teams knew what they were asking. The Skins should have and could have said no. Once the season started, the asking price would drop. If he was being shopped as a second orund pick, he would have dropped to a third or lower after missing training camp. Because if he missed training camp, he would have been cut by Parcells.

7. They have 8 DE's listed on their roster now.

See below. Just Google "Parcells + Taylor".

April 30 - Sporting News

"Yet, rumors that the Dolphins were listening to trade offers for Taylor swirled around the draft. A trade never materialized, but Miami selected two defensive ends among its nine draft picks: Clemson's Phillip Merling in the second round and Hampton's Kendall Langford in the third. "

June 6 - Palm Beach Post

"Taylor has missed all voluntary workouts so far and will not attend a mandatory three-day minicamp that begins this morning.

Coach Tony Sparano said two weeks ago that Taylor also would miss training camp, which begins in late July."

April 30 - ESPN

Jacksonville Jaguars coach Jack Del Rio said his team pursued a deal with Miami, but the Dolphins took Taylor off the trading block.

"We talked," Del Rio said. "They had a certain price in mind, and nobody in the league was interested in that price. They like the player, and they're going to keep him. There's nothing wrong with that." [Emphasis mine.]

A friend once told me that to sell a car at a ridiculous price you have to pretend you won't part with it at any price. Everybody knew what the Dolphins were asking, and other teams said the price was too high. If you just say no, you get a better offer later. What was Parcells going to do with 9 DE's on his team?

When the offer went down to a 3rd round pick, as all signs indicated they would, the Redskins may not have been the first in line and lost out on him. (Too bad they didn't.)

But feel free to Google them all and read. Check the Dolphins website to see the 8 DE's they have listed on their website. If you think Parcells was going to keep Taylor, let me know. I see a better offer (i.e. lower draft choice) with a little bit of patience or better negotiating. If you don't see it, all I can say is we see it differently.

[jivelikenice]

Again:

1. Nobody doubts Parcells wanted JT out

2. Nobody was interested in the 1st round price that was the asking price around draft time

3. The price had no yet dropped to a 3rd rounder and if it did there would have been a ton of competition for him

In hindsight, sure its easy to say too bad it didn't work out and we would have been better of not being able to get him but at that time the price was NOT a 3rd round pick and who's to say it ever would have actually gotten there? The Dolphins would have just waited for a team to lose a DE to injury and may never have dropped the price. Don't you think the Giants would have inquired after Osi was lost for the season?

[TheLongshot]

Again:

1. Nobody doubts Parcells wanted JT out

2. Nobody was interested in the 1st round price that was the asking price around draft time

3. The price had no yet dropped to a 3rd rounder and if it did there would have been a ton of competition for him

In hindsight, sure its easy to say too bad it didn't work out and we would have been better of not being able to get him but at that time the price was NOT a 3rd round pick and who's to say it ever would have actually gotten there? The Dolphins would have just waited for a team to lose a DE to injury and may never have dropped the price. Don't you think the Giants would have inquired after Osi was lost for the season?

The Giants were interested and there were a lot of rumors about a three-way trade between NO, Miami and the Giants with both Shockey and Taylor involved. Funny, but soon after the Taylor trade, the Shockey trade went through.

[wildbill1952]

That being said, I think the point of this thread was that Gibbs was in control over the previous 4 years so why are we blaming Vinny for the shortfalls of the FO over that span? This was his first year with full control so why aren't we allowing his '08 draft class to develop before judging him?

I will. I still have high hopes for that class. Fo no other reason, if it fails Vinny will have no one else to blame it on like he has for all of the others.

So the thread wants us to throw out all of Vinny's responsibility during the Gibbs II era. So be it.

So if Gibbs was responsible for all of it, he was also responsible for our two playoff appearances. I realize that's only a little above mediocre, but it's better than pre-Gibbs II and better, so far, than post-Gibbs II.. Results: two mediocre + years and two bad years and two playoff appearances and 2 years of dominating defense. In the last year of Gibbs II, he left us with enough draft picks that the team could manipulate our 7 picks into 9.

He was responsible for Archuleta and for Sean Taylor, the highs and lows of draft and Free Agency. He was also responsible for Cooley. He was responsible for the year in which we swept the Cowboys and prevented them from going to the playoffs. Gibbs is responsible for more playoff wins (1) during that time than the Cowboys had and more than pre-Gibbs I or post-Gibbs II. He is responsible for drafting Campbell, bringing Portis in, letting Pierce go and bringing in Lloyd and Moss. Vinny is responsible for none of it, the good or the bad.

Pre-Gibbs II, we have zero playoff appearances. We had no continuity on defense and an owner who told the DC that he didn't like vanilla defenses by letting vanilla ice cream melt on his desk. We had 5 DC's in 5 years. We have 8-8 teams and 9-7 teams and we lose a record-setting number of games to the Cowboys. The draft picks were abysmal and so was the team. Free agency include Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, Taylor Jacobs, Michael Westbrook. Vinny is not responsible here either.

Post-Gibbs II: Vinny is now responsible. First year was mediocre. First year draft is still under review although we had 9 draft picks.

Revisionists can guess at his role all they want, but the fact remains that, the team was better with Gibbs here than it was in the 4 years before him or the one year since he left.

So, to summarize:

(Redskins + Gibbs fully responsible + Vinny not responsible for anything) > (Redskins + any other coach + Vinny not responsible for anything)

And

(Redskins + Gibbs fully responsible + Vinny not responsible for anything)>

(Redskins + Vinny responsible for everything)

At least so far.

[jivelikenice]

There were definitely teams interested and that's why I think it wasn't a matter of if a team would give a 2nd rounder up for Taylor, but which team and when. The Dolphins were waiting for a team to pony up once training camp/ preseason injuries began to occur.

In hindsight it was a bad deal, but I hope the Skins don't abruptly cut ties with Jason until the offseason plays out. We're still thin at DE and I would at least explore a pay cut with them before letting him go. He was injured throughout the season and was not even close to 100%nd we played him out of position on the left side. I think its ridiculous that we I we did restructure him and keep him around, I would absolutely move him back to RE, where he's a HOF player.

A healthier Taylor at his natural position with a BJ Raji pushing the pocket might not be great, but is much better than what we have right now. (Again, assuming a pay cut)

[jivelikenice]

Can't argue there Wildbill because pre Gibbs 2.0, we had Schotty and Spurrier with their hands in personnel so Vinny may have had partial influence/ control at times but he was never making THE call on all thigns roster related. 2008 was the first year when this was 100% Vinny's show. He made the calls on the draft, he decided what free agents to pursue, and he pushed for Zorn. The results are mediocre thus far and year 2 will tell a lot about whether or not he'll be able to get this franchise going in the right long-term direction.

[illone]

Yep, you can thank Gibbs for Brunell, Archuleta, and Lloyd.

:paranoid:

[TheLongshot]

So the thread wants us to throw out all of Vinny's responsibility during the Gibbs II era. So be it.

I don't think that's completely true. It is acknowledging the fact that it is tough to judge Vinny's performance when there are people higher in the hierarchy making decisions. I'll agree that Gibbs should get the lion's share of credit and blame for his time here.

There are some aspects we can look at under Gibbs, tho. For example, in his first two years, we were pretty darn poor in late round drafting, not hitting on any of those picks. Scott Campbell gets moved from pro scouting (where under him we did well in FA, for the most part) and then we start drafting fairly well late. That tells me that Scott Campbell is a capable lieutenant for Vinny.

At the same time, Louis Riddick takes over pro scouting form Campbell, and we have a mess of a FA-trade offseason. While a lot of responsibility goes to the coaching staff, some falls on the personnel department, particularly about Brandon Lloyd, since it seems that the FO didn't do enough homework.

Course, that's Riddick's responsibility and it is obvious that he's the fall guy in that. The next year the team decides to just sign players that they know about, which implies that they feel Riddick's reports are suspect. If they believe that, I'm not quite sure why he sticks around another year, but he does. When Vinny is elevated, so is Campbell and Riddick is let go.

So, there has been some accounting for mistakes and trying to address problems with the FO. While we haven't seen much of what Morocco Brown can do, he was the one who was managing PS players, and that ended up being a good sign for the future.

Pre-Gibbs II, we have zero playoff appearances. We had no continuity on defense and an owner who told the DC that he didn't like vanilla defenses by letting vanilla ice cream melt on his desk. We had 5 DC's in 5 years. We have 8-8 teams and 9-7 teams and we lose a record-setting number of games to the Cowboys. The draft picks were abysmal and so was the team. Free agency include Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, Taylor Jacobs, Michael Westbrook. Vinny is not responsible here either.

Michael Westbrook? Way before Snyder dude.

For the most part, Vinny isn't responsible for most of that, tho you can pick out a player here or there that he was responsible for. (For example, signing Rob Johnson was a bad move all around and I can't think of it being anyone's responsibility but Vinny's).

Post-Gibbs II: Vinny is now responsible. First year was mediocre. First year draft is still under review although we had 9 draft picks.

So far, he gets an incomplete. It is too early to rate the draft. He gets a ding for Taylor, but some of the disappointment there was out of his control.

Revisionists can guess at his role all they want, but the fact remains that, the team was better with Gibbs here than it was in the 4 years before him or the one year since he left.

Well, before Gibbs got here, the problem was not being able to stick to a plan for more than two seasons and having to tear everything up when the plan changed. When you have that much turnover across the board, it is hard to build much of anything.

[tr1]

Revisionists can guess at his role all they want, but the fact remains that, the team was better with Gibbs here than it was in the 4 years before him or the one year since he left.

And some of us MIGHT suggest that Gibbs would have gotten us to the playoffs last year considering his RECORD in finishing off regular seasons.

That would have been three playoff appearances in five years.

Quite acceptable in my book.

[BAFGA]

The fact that we're having this discussion doesn't speak well for the front office. Who is really in charge?

Many of the best teams out there have a clear front office structure. We haven't had one in a while.

[Smoot Point Really]

Why was Vinny on the payroll if he didn't have some sort of responsibility?

AFAIK, his role was pretty much over scouting and player development... Gibbs provided the overall direction and got whatever he wanted. Snyder wrote the checks (didn't ever hear of him denying Gibbs/Williams anything).

Cerrato has a small hand in what happened previously... However, he has a very big hand in what happened last year and what will happen this year. Overall, I have no complaints with any of the moves he made last year... A few "head scratchers", but the Jason Taylor criticism is mostly hindsight being 20/20... If Snyder is giving him another season or two, I don't mind.

[Ernie5]

Revisionists can guess at his role all they want, but the fact remains that, the team was better with Gibbs here than it was in the 4 years before him or the one year since he left.

The after part is not necessarily true. Gibbs had two losing seasons here, Zorn none so far.