Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We have been stupid in not keeping our draft picks. agreed, but even the picks we have had, we havent drafted lineman. . we didn't ignore them.. the lines were addressed in free agency and trades. and when was the last time we signed a young lineman? theyre usually towards the end of their career? pete kendall? jason taylor? andre carter after he failed in SF? rabach and thomas are the only solid ones i can think of, and both are close to past it. Cleaning house won't help much because we can't accumulate enough good players to replace them in a year. But we do need to get younger. sure it will. id love to keep: landry, hall, horton, mcintosh, monty, rogers, cooley, thomas, kelly, rhinehart, portis. these guys are who we build around. i know portis is abused, but hes still young and i think he can be even better if we get a decent compliment to him. guys like springs, griffin, jansen, taylor, carter, washington, kendall, rabach, ARE, etc. guys like this need to go. overpaid and underproducing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodiesel#44 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 WTF? Who expects an immediate payoff from rookie linemen? We have been neglecting the line for years and now it has undeniably caught up with us. It didn 't exactly sneak up on me. It will also take years to get out of the hole we have put ourself in. I would also say it seems to be paying off for both the.Cards and Fins too. There is a possibility the Cards might even make the palofs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We do need to go line, but I'd argue that an exceptional QB can have more success with an average line than an average QB can have with an exceptional line. To me our main problem is behind center, not next to him. That said I do want us to draft linemen this year. Go all linemen for all I care. There could be some really good talent as far as QB coming out next year, not to mention we still have #5 who may or may not be a diamond in the rough. Bottom line, Campbell is expendable in my opinion. Keep him for next season, replace him midway if he shows no progress, but draft linemen this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We do need to go line, but I'd argue that an exceptional QB can have more success with an average line than an average QB can have with an exceptional line. To me our main problem is behind center, not next to him.That said I do want us to draft linemen this year. Go all linemen for all I care. There could be some really good talent as far as QB coming out next year, not to mention we still have #5 who may or may not be a diamond in the rough. Bottom line, Campbell is expendable in my opinion. Keep him for next season, replace him midway if he shows no progress, but draft linemen this year. I'm with you, Armchair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We do need to go line, but I'd argue that an exceptional QB can have more success with an average line than an average QB can have with an exceptional line. To me our main problem is behind center, not next to him.That said I do want us to draft linemen this year. Go all linemen for all I care. There could be some really good talent as far as QB coming out next year, not to mention we still have #5 who may or may not be a diamond in the rough. Bottom line, Campbell is expendable in my opinion. Keep him for next season, replace him midway if he shows no progress, but draft linemen this year. agreed, but in the meantime, since we dont have a top tier pick, we take Oline and build the lines. remember great lines can also mask a mediocre QB, which campbell definitely is. and campbell wont be here past 09, so we need to build something for a rookie to come in and not get crushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 As usual your "stats" do not tell the actual story or have any relevance. As stated, my stats relate to those in La Canafora's article. Cards drafted or picked up as a UDFA 4 of their 5 O-lineman. How is your stat relevant? Steelers drafted 4 of the 5 starting O-lineman and none of the draftees have more than 5 years experience. For most of the season, the Steelers O line was their weakest unit. The Colts and the Patriots won more games and used a lower percentage of draft picks on linemen than the Steelers 28.6 and 29.7 to 39.0 for the Steelers. New England's starting lineman are all draftees and all except Matt Light have 5 years or less experience. Are they any good? Cassell was among the league leaders in being sacked and hurried. And, what about that aging D line? You need to constantly be drafting new lineman every year for depth and replenishment of lost FA's, as we all know lineman since Hutchinson's move to Minnesota have been in high demand and payed well. Sure you have to replenish all the positions, but there is no evidence supporting JLC's argument that building the trenches first is a sound strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterwookas Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Several scenerios can happen come draft day. I think we will get an offensive lineman with the 13th pick. I also think you will see a current player packaged into a deal that can bring us another player and possibly some more picks. I heard on Redskins Nation that the team has only 4 total picks in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yeah, as stated, drafting 7th round linemen is not the same as putting an emphasis on the line positions. It also could mean the team got talented young linemen in FA. Also, as stated, the Cards and Dolphins are moving up in the football world. Both have had arguably more successful seasons than the Skins have had over the past, well, 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 That said I do want us to draft linemen this year. Go all linemen for all I care. The draft isn't a supermarket. You don't just go and pick out what you need. If the draft is heavy with good linemen, I agree. If it isn't, then let's improve wherever the opportunity presents itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 competence to find the right talent comes in a close second. and in this respect...this team has FAILED for the last 16 years. we've had, at times, above average lines. never Championship quality lines. covering up for incompetence in building a team is never a pretty thing. Wouldn't you think that totally refusing to use high round picks on DL or OL is an open admission of the incompetence of the FO? They say it's safer to pay 5x more for a FA that another team doesnt want to pay. What does that really say? Our FO sucks, and they know it. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We need linemen on both sides of the ball if we are going to win next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We need linemen on both sides of the ball if we are going to win next season.Well, thank you John Madden! j/k I get what you're saying and you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 As stated, my stats relate to those in La Canafora's article. Well leave JLC out of this. He may be right here but he isn't really a source to sight, due to his history. How is your stat relevant? Obviously, my stat relates to winning teams who are the benchmark standard for excellence in the league draft lineman often and well. For most of the season, the Steelers O line was their weakest unit. I'm sure Willie Parker being injured had no factor in this at all. :doh: Also the Steelers offense is not a 3 step and throw system, more of one based on play action and 5-7 steps and throws downfield. The Colts and the Patriots won more games and used a lower percentage of draft picks on linemen than the Steelers 28.6 and 29.7 to 39.0 for the Steelers. Again, your information is flawed and your post holds ZERO water. Pats drafted all of their starting lineman, as have the Colts. Please check their rosters before making posts like this. Fact is, a greater percentage of winning teams draft lineman than those that don't. Are they any good? Cassell was among the league leaders in being sacked and hurried. And, what about that aging D line? Cassell is a 1st year starter. They also had to run a high percentage number of times to protect Cassell. Hell. they actually ran more than the Skins did this year. Predictable offense means you can stack 8 in the box and mess up an offense. Sure you have to replenish all the positions, but there is no evidence supporting JLC's argument that building the trenches first is a sound strategy. :doh::doh: Sure. Tell that to all of the teams that draft lineman, replenish their depth and have a better than .500 winning percentage the last 10 years. You may not like it, but your "research" does nothing to disprove a given fact in the league; the game is won on the trenches and you have to draft lineman each and every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Well, thank you John Madden! j/k I get what you're saying and you're right. LOL, I didn't realize, but it is quite a Madden-esque statement! LOL. With that said, I hate games done by Madden, Its like Captain Obvious calling the games. What I meant is that no matter what, we will swim in this sea of mediocracy until we address our lines with quality youth. they may not be glamorous positions, but the lines are the backbone of any team. You live and die by your line, and the old cliché is true, the game s are won and lost in the trenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 deleted duplicate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Oldskool: Well leave JLC out of this. As stated, my stats relate to those in La Canafora's article. That's the topic for discussion if you'd like to debate it. Obviously, my stat relates to winning teams who are the benchmark standard for excellence in the league draft lineman often and well. After just 52 regular season wins in nine seasons, the Cardinals have my best wishes for a Super bowl win, but they are not a "benchmark standard for excellence in the league draft lineman often and well." I'm sure Willie Parker being injured had no factor in this at all. Also the Steelers offense is not a 3 step and throw system, more of one based on play action and 5-7 steps and throws downfield. I repeat, the Steelers' O line is their weakest unit -- despite your excuses. Big Ben was lucky to survive. Pats drafted all of their starting lineman, as have the Colts. Please check their rosters before making posts like this. Nevertheless this is a fact: The Colts and the Patriots won more games and used a lower percentage of draft picks on linemen than the Steelers 28.6 and 29.7 to 39.0 for the Steelers. Fact is, a greater percentage of winning teams draft lineman than those that don't. Every team drafts linemen. What are you claiming that you can support exactly? Cassell is a 1st year starter. They also had to run a high percentage number of times to protect Cassell. Hell. they actually ran more than the Skins did this year. Predictable offense means you can stack 8 in the box and mess up an offense. Your reply didn't answer my question: Are they [the O line] any good? Cassell was among the league leaders in being sacked and hurried. And, what about that aging D line? You may not like it, but your "research" does nothing to disprove a given fact in the league; the game is won on the trenches and you have to draft lineman each and every year. Your statements can't be proved or disproved. They're just bald assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Old School vs. Old Fan, winner gets the "ES, OG Crown of champions". Show us who's prowess is older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Oldfan, Wouldn't the Redskins 1981 draft support the theory of building the lines as setting the table for sustained success?? May Grimm Manley Grant I've seen you make reference to that draft in other threads about how that set the table for Gibbs I, why is that philosophy lost on you now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDevinThomas Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Haha, and see where they are now as the line matures? We need them, its our biggest problem. Their is no doubt that we need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief skin Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Ask Jason as you scrape him up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedevilhimself Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Oldfan,Wouldn't the Redskins 1981 draft support the theory of building the lines as setting the table for sustained success?? May Grimm Manley Grant I've seen you make reference to that draft in other threads about how that set the table for Gibbs I, why is that philosophy lost on you now? And May and Grimm were stalwarts of the OL for years, we didn't keep drafting more offensive linemen to "replenish" our stocks . Manley and Grant both also starred on the D line for years, if anything we traded for replacements . That 81 draft was the draft that golden ages are made of . Look at the Chiefs, for years they had possibly the best offensive lines in the business then overnight it seems they went from a top tier vetran unit and got expensive and old overnight . I think a very similar thing is happening to the Skins right now . Look at the best offensive lines .. how many of those have constant turnover of players ? Constantly drafting OL with day 1 picks doesn't tell me a team is thinking ahead, it tells me they were not very good at it in the firsr place . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Happy Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Here are the number of linemen drafted in the first 3 rounds (2000-2008): 8 - Patriots 8 - Giants 7 - Steelers 6 - Colts 3 - Redskins Here are the number of linemen drafted in the first 2 rounds (2000-2008): 7 - Patriots 5 - Giants 4 - Colts 4 - Steelers 1 - Redskins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 And May and Grimm were stalwarts of the OL for years, we didn't keep drafting more offensive linemen to "replenish" our stocks . I guess that's why between 1982 and 1991 the Redskins actually drafted 15 offensive linemen because they didn't want to replenish the line?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 As stated, my stats relate to those in La Canafora's article. That's the topic for discussion if you'd like to debate it. Non-factor as it relates to this argument, so we'll move on. After just 52 regular season wins in nine seasons, the Cardinals have my best wishes for a Super bowl win, but they are not a "benchmark standard for excellence in the league draft lineman often and well." Well their success this year not only goes to having a good, young O-line (ask Jim Johnson about how well his blitzes worked against them), but also to several other factors. Again, 2 teams that have drafted the vast majority of their O-lineman are going to the SB and you have nothing relevant to add about it. I repeat, the Steelers' O line is their weakest unit -- despite your excuses. Big Ben was lucky to survive. One man's "excuse" is fact to everyone else. Again, this has to do with the type of offense they run as well as Parker being injured this year. Doesn't help that Roethlisberger makes Drew Bledsoe look like Michael Vick. Nevertheless this is a fact: The Colts and the Patriots won more games and used a lower percentage of draft picks on linemen than the Steelers 28.6 and 29.7 to 39.0 for the Steelers. Irrelevant fact when you know that the Colts, Patroits and Steelers starting O-lineman are almost universally drafted by that team. It simply trumps your "facts" and your suggestion that teams that win don't draft O-lineman. It is an obvious fallacy. Every team drafts linemen. What are you claiming that you can support exactly? Every team does draft lineman but not every team waits until the lineman are in their 30s or are soon to leave via UFA to do so. We have not been smart on this note, and winning teams like the Pats, Steelers, Colts and even the Eagles have. Your reply didn't answer my question: Are they [the O line] any good? Cassell was among the league leaders in being sacked and hurried. And, what about that aging D line? NE gave up 21 sacks in 2007 and 48 in 2008. The O-lineman were all the same and the coaching staff were all the same. What changed? Cassell. As for the D-line, the mystery of why NE prefers older DE's and LB's is a mystery to me. When they do draft D-lineman, they do so very well (Seymor, Willfork, Warren are all starters and drafted by the Pats). Your statements can't be proved or disproved. They're just bald assertions. Cry me a river and look at teams that win versus the ones that sit at home watching the SB for decades upon decades. It's called empirical evidence. Try using it on occasion instead of pulling half assed stats that have zero relevance to your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Here are the number of linemen drafted in the first 3 rounds (2000-2008):8 - Patriots 8 - Giants 7 - Steelers 6 - Colts 3 - Redskins Here are the number of linemen drafted in the first 2 rounds (2000-2008): 7 - Patriots 5 - Giants 4 - Colts 4 - Steelers 1 - Redskins And therein lies the insurmountable difference between the attention paid to the lines by the consistently elite teams, and the erratic Redskins. :owned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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