Comcast.net: ACORN defends efforts amid voter-fraud allegations

[81artmonk]

Every single registration form filled out must be turned in. You cant pick and choose which ones to turn in, so ACORN has to turn in a form even if they are fairly certain it is a fake. What possible benefit would ACORN receive for signing one person up dozens of times? He can't vote dozens of times and it will surely get caught by the system, it is because they have to, they don't have a choice in which forms they submit and which ones they don't. Most of these fake forms are people trying to get quota's and those people should be punished, but once a registration form is filled out ACORN cannot simply reject the form no matter how ridiculous they have to pass it on. The problem is that people arn't distinguishing between the random people hired by ACORN simply to sign people up and the bulk of the organization.

Well here's the problem. ACORN is knowingly doing this, since the qoutas are there. So we have a scenerio where ACORN is participating in voter fraud and than handing it over, to whomever, with the idea that it will be caught.

That's like saying during an election we will allow polling places to participate in fruad with the hopes that certian powers will catch these issues in time and it won't affect the outcome.

So if I hear you right, this is ok as long it's caught and doesn't affect the outcome in an election. :doh:

[Larry]

Well here's the problem. ACORN is knowingly doing this, since the qoutas are there. So we have a scenerio where ACORN is participating in voter fraud and than handing it over, to whomever, with the idea that it will be caught.

That's like saying during an election we will allow polling places to participate in fruad with the hopes that certian powers will catch these issues in time and it won't affect the outcome.

So if I hear you right, this is ok as long it's caught and doesn't affect the outcome in an election. :doh:

So if I hear you right, ACORN is knowingly committing fraud against itself because people are committing fraud against ACORN.

[gbear]

Um...they are legally required to turn them over whether they think they are fraud or not (correct me if I'm wrong). They do take the time to screen the applications and note which ones they think are fraud. Seems like a job done well. Sometimes budgets don't allow us to hire experts for every job...sad times we live in...but given that, it seems a reasonable alternative to do what you can to deal with problems if in net it is deemed a net positive.

2 equal cost choices for getting a job that should be simply done (made up of course):

choice 1: hire 5 experts and sign up 100 new voters

choice 2: hire 15 unknowns, sign up 1000, edit/review them down to 950 new voters. 2 bogeys slip by.

Sorry, but it seems to me like you are just second guessing a managerial decision because you need something to complain about. Why do you think those 2 will get to vote, and why are you sure they won't vote for your guy? It's not like both sides weren't for ACORN's program. I'm sorry, it just seems like lookingfor something to complain about.

[TheGoodBits]

Well here's the problem. ACORN is knowingly doing this, since the qoutas are there. So we have a scenerio where ACORN is participating in voter fraud and than handing it over, to whomever, with the idea that it will be caught.

That's like saying during an election we will allow polling places to participate in fruad with the hopes that certian powers will catch these issues in time and it won't affect the outcome.

So if I hear you right, this is ok as long it's caught and doesn't affect the outcome in an election. :doh:

First, I want everyone to agree to make this distinction: ACORN has not commited voter registration fraud, ACORN employees have. Ok, as to it affecting the outcome of the election, it can not affect it at all because people can vote one time if they exist, zero times if they don't. Simple as that. Registered multiple times? You will have the multiple thrown out. Register under a fake name? Well someone with that fake name is the one who has to show up and vote. This is not voter fraud, or even an attempt at voter fraud. These ridiculous comments about Obama trying to steal the election need to stop. Mccain is losing. Get over it. Grow up.

[Larry]

First, I want everyone to agree to make this distinction: ACORN has not commited voter registration fraud, ACORN employees have.

Now, I'd say there's no evidence that ACORN has. That doesn't prove the negative.

I look at motive.

When a business gets raided by INS, and they find out that 80% of the employees are illegal, and the employees all swear that they've been working 80 hours a week but getting paid for 40. Then I conclude that the guy in charge has been deliberately, knowingly breaking the law. Because he's been profiting from it.

If the company has 20 locations, and all 20 locations are doing it, then I conclude that the decision to use illegals came from corporate. No matter how many company policy manuals they point at that say otherwise. At the very least, they've been intentionally looking the other way and saying "I don't want to know". Because they've been profiting from the crime.

OTOH, nobody's even attempted to put out a theory whereby ACORN would profit from registering fake people to vote. Or registering the same person 20 times.

Even if you assume that ACORN are partisan and rotten to the core (not a bad assumption when dealing with political organizations), the only way ACORN could possibly achieve any alleged goals would be if fake people vote.

And for that to happen, the fake people pretty much have to have real addresses. In many cases they'd have to have fake IDs to go with their fake registration.

And, perhaps even bigger, in order for Darth Acorn to actually affect the election, he'd have to have thousands of Evil Apprentices, maybe hundreds of thousands, in multiple states, all trained in the secret Jedi Vote Trick.

And people claim that Bush couldn't have blown up the WTC, because too many people would have to be in on the plot? Doing that would have been simple, compared to registering enough fake voters, and having them all vote, to swing an election.

In short, I find that claims of ACORN actively conspiring to try to steal the election by using fake voters impossible to believe.

Whereas I find the thought of unemployed bums filling out fake paperwork so they can make quota and get their 20 bucks completely possible to believe. (Same with the theory of voters filling out fake forms to make the annoying, persistent bum go away.)

But, honesty compels me to state that "impossible to believe" isn't the same as "proven false". IMO, under other circumstances, I would regard a similar recitations of scandals, surrounding a central figure who's yelling "no proof", to be quite believable. If I see a clear motive. (There just isn't one, here.)

[ccsl2]

What about Minnie or Goofy? Why did ACORN stop with just Mickey?

Because Goofy has been President for the last 8 years.

[TheGoodBits]

Very true Larry. Should change that to no evidence. Still I think you and I agree that it really is an absurd talking point. And here we have people saying we should postpone the election! Complete ignorance if you ask me.

[TrumanB]

First, I want everyone to agree to make this distinction: ACORN has not commited voter registration fraud, ACORN employees have.

You "want" everyone to agree? :doh: Uh, no.

How do you KNOW that ACORN wasn't involved in this fraud? How do you KNOW that is was limited to just employee fraud? Did you personally investigate this yourself? Don't you find it alarming that this wasn't limited to just one or two isolated instance? Do you know that there are instances of fraud in at least TEN states? Don't you think this raises the issue that it may be a systemic problem? Even if ACORN management wasn't involved in this fraud, aren't they accountable for the types of employees that they hire? Aren't they accountable for the system they have in place for registering voters? So if there is widespread fraud at Bank of America where they were ripping off customers, they shouldn't be held accountable, because it was the "employees" that did it? Don't you believe there are instances where voter registration fraud will lead to voter fraud?

[TheGoodBits]

You "want" everyone to agree? :doh: Uh, no.

How do you KNOW that ACORN wasn't involved in this fraud? How do you KNOW that is was limited to just employee fraud? Did you personally investigate this yourself? Don't you find it alarming that this wasn't limited to just one or two isolated instance? Do you know that there are instances of fraud in at least TEN states? Don't you think this raises the issue that it may be a systemic problem? Even if ACORN management wasn't involved in this fraud, aren't they accountable for the types of employees that they hire? Aren't they accountable for the system they have in place for registering voters? So if there is widespread fraud at Bank of America where they were ripping off customers, they shouldn't be held accountable, because it was the "employees" that did it? Don't you believe there are instances where voter registration fraud will lead to voter fraud?

Wondering why you keep bringing up Bank of America... Anyway, it only makes sense that this would happen based on the ACORN financial structure. If you work for them registering voters, you have to register them or you don't get paid. So of course you are going to see more than a few occurences out of the 1.3 million voters they have registered.

And you STILL have not answered how you think this will influence the outcome of the election. You STILL have not said how you expect fake people to actually vote. Answer that, will you?

[ccsl2]

Um...they are legally required to turn them over whether they think they are fraud or not (correct me if I'm wrong). They do take the time to screen the applications and note which ones they think are fraud. Seems like a job done well. Sometimes budgets don't allow us to hire experts for every job...sad times we live in...but given that, it seems a reasonable alternative to do what you can to deal with problems if in net it is deemed a net positive.

2 equal cost choices for getting a job that should be simply done (made up of course):

choice 1: hire 5 experts and sign up 100 new voters

choice 2: hire 15 unknowns, sign up 1000, edit/review them down to 950 new voters. 2 bogeys slip by.

Sorry, but it seems to me like you are just second guessing a managerial decision because you need something to complain about. Why do you think those 2 will get to vote, and why are you sure they won't vote for your guy? It's not like both sides weren't for ACORN's program. I'm sorry, it just seems like lookingfor something to complain about.

The GOpers seem to be trying to stick every problem with voter registration to the Obama camp. DESPERATION.

[TrumanB]

And you STILL have not answered how you think this will influence the outcome of the election. You STILL have not said how you expect fake people to actually vote. Answer that, will you?

Well, considering I have yet been asked to show an ID for any election I have ever voted in, it's really very simple. I walk in, they ask for my name and I give them the fake one. They then ask me to give me my address and DOB for verification. I give them the address and DOB for the fake name that was registered.

Why is that so difficult to fathom?

[Larry]

Actually, I'll freely admit that it's an "out there" observation, but I observe that a lot of these lists of all these scary-sounding charges come from the "Consumers Rights League".

A google search for them finds lots of press releases from them about how evil ACORN is, and a wiki-like page, SourceWatch, which begins with "The Consumer Rights League (CRL) appears to be a front group for the credit card industry that was created to do battle with industry critics such as the Center for Responsible Lending and ACORN.". (Although I'll admit that the page really doesn't support these conclusions.)

[Larry]

Well, considering I have yet been asked to show an ID for any election I have ever voted in, it's really very simple. I walk in, they ask for my name and I give them the fake one. They then ask me to give me my address and DOB for verification. I give them the address and DOB for the fake name that was registered.

Why is that so difficult to fathom?

1) In Florida, you have to show ID if you haven't voted in previous elections. (If you're a new registration.)

2) And again, in order to commit election fraud, you'd have to have thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands, in multiple states, who are all willing to vote twice.

Edit: Let's make things a little more specific, too.

What do you suppose would happen if you tried to vote twice, 15 minutes apart? Think the person behind the counter might perk up his interest then?

So now, for you to vote twice, you have to be willing to vote once, wait a few hours, and then go back and vote again. (Or you have to vote once, then go to a different polling location, and vote over there.)

Makes voting twice kind of risky and complicated, doesn't it? Not an insurmountable challenge. I'm sure the odds are you'd get away with it if you put a little effort into it.

But, what are the odds of 100,000 people getting away with it?

[TrumanB]

1) In Florida, you have to show ID if you haven't voted in previous elections. (If you're a new registration.)

2) And again, in order to commit election fraud, you'd have to have thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands, in multiple states, who are all willing to vote twice.

Edit: Let's make things a little more specific, too.

What do you suppose would happen if you tried to vote twice, 15 minutes apart? Think the person behind the counter might perk up his interest then?

So now, for you to vote twice, you have to be willing to vote once, wait a few hours, and then go back and vote again. (Or you have to vote once, then go to a different polling location, and vote over there.)

Makes voting twice kind of risky and complicated, doesn't it? Not an insurmountable challenge. I'm sure the odds are you'd get away with it if you put a little effort into it.

But, what are the odds of 100,000 people getting away with it?

In Virginia, if you provide a valid government issued ID (or even a bank statement with your name on it) when you register, you do NOT have to provide ID for even the first time you vote. I'm not sure how this works in other states or how ACORN is registering these voters, but I wouldn't imagine it would be too difficult to register someone under this status.

In close elections, these votes can make a difference, especially if there is widespread fraud being committed across the country. I think the bigger issue is not so much Joe "Fake" Blow voting two or three times under fake registered names. It is Bob "The Election Official" that is commiting "inside" fraud by doing the voting for a whole list of fake registered names. I'm not sure how that would be pulled off (I don't tend to think like a criminal and don't know the quality control systems in place to prevent this), but I am befuddled how so many people can downplay the seriousness of voter registration fraud and how that could potentially lead to election fraud. My guess is most of those downplaying this issue are simply just partisan.

[TheGoodBits]

Hey, nobody's trying to downplay voter fraud, or the potential for it. We're just saying that the ACORN case appears to one an instance where significant voter fraud would not be at all likely. As Larry pointed out, it would take a massive coordinated effort to have this take place. You, on the other hand, are blowing this way out of proportion by saying we need to consider postponing the election. Seriously??? Just take a look at the registrations, throw out the bad ones, everyone is happy, right? I suspect you are just looking for a talking point other than "My candidate is looking like he's going to lose states he needs to win."

[Hooper]

Where are people voting that they haven't had to show an ID? That's never happened to me before in any kind of election. I'm not doubting that it happens -- I'm just saying it's crazy.

[Predicto]

Well, considering I have yet been asked to show an ID for any election I have ever voted in, it's really very simple. I walk in, they ask for my name and I give them the fake one. They then ask me to give me my address and DOB for verification. I give them the address and DOB for the fake name that was registered.

Why is that so difficult to fathom?

Do you know how many separate "fake voters" you would need to have even the slightest effect on the outcome of a single state?

[GibbsFactor]

Why are ANY of you defending ACORN?

Come on. This is a problem.

[Predicto]

Why are ANY of you defending ACORN?

Come on. This is a problem.

We are not defending ACORN. We are discussing the problem, which is being misrepresented.

Here is the simple reality:

One guy can turn in 100 fake voter registrations, or more, to try to get paid for registering lots of voters. That is a problem. It is mostly a problem for ACORN, which paid for nothing.

However, one guy CAN'T vote 100 times, and there is no secret army of fake voters out there. You really think precinct captains won't notice if the same guy votes over and over? Or if three people try to vote under the same name? Or whatever?

GibbsFactor is smart enough to understand the difference, but many soundbite voters do not understand.

The people yelling the loudest about the danger of ACORN are trying to pretend that false voter registrations is the same thing as fake votes, and therefore ACORN is going to "steal the election." They want to stir up fear that the election is being stolen. It's a crock.

[Larry]

Why are ANY of you defending ACORN?

Come on. This is a problem.

Because so far, no one has come up with even a plausible theory as to how ACORN could be guilty? :whoknows:

[Larry]

Well, actually, I'll admit. I can think of a way a voter could vote twice, and be almost guaranteed to get away with it.

Simply register to vote at the address of your second home, and then vote absentee.

It's a real address, in your real name. If the county registrar verifies the name, address, SSN and whatever, they'll all check out, because you really do own the home at that address.

And what are the odds that, after the election, the county where you voted absentee will check and see if you actually voted, in person, at your primary address? Can they even check?

I've never tried it, but I don't really see any plausible way you could get caught at it.

(If you own more than two homes, you might even be able to vote more than twice.)

Catch is, it really requires voters who own multiple homes in multiple states.

[TrumanB]

They want to stir up fear that the election is being stolen. It's a crock.

Predicto in 2000: "Those damn Bush people committed fraud in Florida and stole the election!"

[Predicto]

Predicto in 2000: "Those damn Bush people committed fraud in Florida and stole the election!"

Oh, did you find that in a Tailgate thread search?

Why no, you didn't - because I never said anything of the sort.

Just because you and I disagree on political issues doesn't mean that I am as much of a mindless partisan as you.

Anyhow, you still haven't explained how Acorn could steal this election. Any more bright ideas?

[Larry]

Predicto in 2000: "Those damn Bush people committed fraud in Florida and stole the election!"

Course, there is at least one difference between the two situations.

One involves "attempts" to register fake people which aren't happening.

The other involved removing real registrations for real people, which did happen.

But don't let those details deter you.

[TrumanB]

Anyhow, you still haven't explained how Acorn could steal this election. Any more bright ideas?

I already did, you just chose to ignore it. Getting "fake" voters registered is half the battle for those wanting to commit election fraud. Corrupt election officials can certainly take advantage of this, regardless if there is an actual person voting under the false registration. There is such a thing as computer fraud in voting and with a paper trail that says these people are registered, I could see how someone can easily manipulate the system without any bells going off.