Go Deep Young Man!

[darrelgreenie]

Almost a month later I have the same gripe. I wonder if people still disagree?

[shakinaiken]

Almost a month later I have the same gripe. I wonder if people still disagree?

probably, but the fact of the matter is that zorn is a mediocre playcaller. I said it a month ago and everyone killed me. of course i know the oline is terrible, but protection schemes are part of the playcalling and coaching, so it find it hard to believe we can't give campbell any time at all....

[c4man5282]

The records of the QB's teams:

Schaub~36 (0-4)

Farve~38 (2-2)

Griese~35 (3-2)

McNabb~51 (2-3)

Rodgers~39 (2-3)

Cutler~60 (4-1)

Hasselbeck~45 (1-3)

Campbell~27 (4-1) 0 interceptions

I'll take wins over bombs any day.

Anybody know the updated records for these QB's and teams now?

[Voice_of_Reason]

Almost a month later I have the same gripe. I wonder if people still disagree?

I REALLY want the 'Skins to take more shots down the field. Here's the problem: They can't. They just can't. Zorn basically came out after the game and said that they were losing the 1-1 O-Line battles and protection was a problem. He called deep routes, but JC couldn't get the ball off.

I don't think it's scheme, I don't think it's the QB, I don't think it's the WR (well, it might be, minus Moss) I think it's the crappy pass blocking of the O-line. Romo sits to pee had ALL DAY to throw the ball, and JC had a hand in his face every single play. It's disgusting.

[Voice_of_Reason]

probably, but the fact of the matter is that zorn is a mediocre playcaller. I said it a month ago and everyone killed me. of course i know the oline is terrible, but protection schemes are part of the playcalling and coaching, so it find it hard to believe we can't give campbell any time at all....

That was a dumb comment a month ago, and it's a dumb comment now.

Here's how you scheme to "protect" you're O-Line:

1. You throw quick short routes

2. You move the QB on roll outs and waggles

3. You keep additional people in to block which means removing them from the route tree.

Ok, so, tell me, does ANY of that sound familiar? Hmmmmm? How about all of it? Zorn is doing all the things you have to do to cover for a bad o-line. And then people kill him because they don't go down field. You can't have it both ways.

I generally don't like to get on Vinny, because he's kindof a human punching bag around here, but this is on Vinny (and possibly Joe Gibbs). They needed to get younger and more athletic on the O-Line 2 years ago. They're going to have to tear the whole thing apart in the off season. But we're going to have to live with it until then.

[buenosdiaz]

thats what she said...

[darrelgreenie]

That was a dumb comment a month ago, and it's a dumb comment now.

Here's how you scheme to "protect" you're O-Line:

1. You throw quick short routes

2. You move the QB on roll outs and waggles

3. You keep additional people in to block which means removing them from the route tree.

Ok, so, tell me, does ANY of that sound familiar? Hmmmmm? How about all of it? Zorn is doing all the things you have to do to cover for a bad o-line. And then people kill him because they don't go down field. You can't have it both ways.

I generally don't like to get on Vinny, because he's kindof a human punching bag around here, but this is on Vinny (and possibly Joe Gibbs). They needed to get younger and more athletic on the O-Line 2 years ago. They're going to have to tear the whole thing apart in the off season. But we're going to have to live with it until then.

If we're gonna be a good team we can't allow our offensive line to prevent us from going deep. Also, just a point of clarity in the OP i refer to deeper passes of the 15 yard variety, not just throwing the 'long ball'. We have managed to throw the ball downfield on occasion, but IMO haven't gone downfield often enough.

I agree that Zorn calls plays to protect the offensive line. But it only takes 1.2-1.7 seconds to take a 5 step and 7 step drop. Zorn/WR/Jason have got to make it happen.

1) there are many more quick routes then the ones we use the most

(screens, hitches, slants)

2) IMO the slants have been effective but we don't run them enough and we should run the slant deeper (we run a very flat and shallow slant)

3) You're right about the need to move the pocket. But, how often do we do it? Especially on third down. I can count on 1 hand how many times we use the Sprint out, Roll out, Bootleg, or Waggle.

4) We rarely use max protection.

5) Use the backs in the passing game more, especially when the passing game and pass-pro is struggling

IMO the downfield passing game isn't a point of emphasis for Zorn and it shows. Until he makes it a priority it will never change.

Bill Walsh said: "...the coaching staff should guard against being "seduced" by the relative ease of completing 3-step drop passes."

(Finding the Winning Edge)

And i think Zorn/Campbell are more then seduced they are in love.

[gortiz]

wow ...

I've been crazy supportive of JZ and JC, but my faith has been shaken a little.

I really think JZ is not letting JC have at it. I think he is holding him back and the stat on pass attempts over 11 yards only adds to my assertion.

Also, if you notice, JZ talks a lot about "trust." I think he still does not trust JC. I am sure that will change, just not sure exaclty when.

[darrelgreenie]

wow ...

I've been crazy supportive of JZ and JC, but my faith has been shaken a little.

I really think JZ is not letting JC have at it. I think he is holding him back and the stat on pass attempts over 11 yards only adds to my assertion.

Also, if you notice, JZ talks a lot about "trust." I think he still does not trust JC. I am sure that will change, just not sure exaclty when.

I still support JC/JC but when is the passing game gonna actually look different?

[fire3fighter4]

wow ...

I've been crazy supportive of JZ and JC, but my faith has been shaken a little.

I really think JZ is not letting JC have at it. I think he is holding him back and the stat on pass attempts over 11 yards only adds to my assertion.

Also, if you notice, JZ talks a lot about "trust." I think he still does not trust JC. I am sure that will change, just not sure exaclty when.

interesting

people said the same thing Saunders and Gibbs.....Is it just a coincidence that all 3 coaches have decided to hold Campbell back?..

[DieselPwr44]

when is the passing game gonna actually look different?

Ummm...When we get an Oline that can actually pass protect??

[kingfish50]

Maybe this is something that is going to take a couple of years to develop. Our o-line is run oriented, big bulky men and in the WCO, your o-linemen are usually more versatile and quicker on their feet.

I might be wrong but it sure looks that way but then again if this were true, they would have drafted some O-linemen instead of a...punter, that no longer plays in the NFL. Who knows?

[darrelgreenie]

I still support JC/JC but when is the passing game gonna actually look different?

Ummm...When we get an Oline that can actually pass protect??

Our offensive line personnel isn't going to change unless we turn to Heyer or Rhinehart. Short of that our O-line "are who they are."

Some of our o-line is banged up (Samuels) others are struggling (Jansen).

We can't just fold up and close up shop. COACH! Find a scheme, create a scheme.

Max protect.

Move the pocket on 3rd down.

Sprint Out.

Roll out.

Waggle.

Bootleg.

With the same amount of protection we get now, we should be able to hit on some deeper passes.

I'm watching highlights on ESPN right now and team after team send 3 receivers out and each of the 3 receivers runs a pattern deeper then 10 yards, with only the RB under 10 yards, yet they still manage to get the ball out in 3 seconds or less.

I feel like a broken record, but if the receivers get open the QB can get the ball out quick regardless of the depth of the route.

It only takes 1.5 seconds to take a 7 step drop.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Yes, take deep shots with less than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball (on average). That will work. Because moss is fast and can run a 20-30 yard route in 2.5 seconds... (he may be able to but that's not the point).

[darrelgreenie]

Yes, take deep shots with less than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball (on average). That will work. Because moss is fast and can run a 20-30 yard route in 2.5 seconds... (he may be able to but that's not the point).

Que? I really don't understand your post.

Are you saying that the Redskins can't pass block for 2.5 seconds? Or that Moss can't run 20-30 yards in 2.5 seconds?

Please clarify. I would like to understand your point.

[2cents]

The passing game opens up when the QB is not getting pressure 3 steps into a 5 step drop. It is really simple if you actually watch the game. We need youth and strength on the O-line. Our guys just are not that good, people have figured it out, and if you just pounch our guys long and hard they break down by the 2nd half. We needs lots of new blood there before we go anywhere.

[darrelgreenie]

The passing game opens up when the QB is not getting pressure 3 steps into a 5 step drop. It is really simple if you actually watch the game. We need youth and strength on the O-line. Our guys just are not that good, people have figured it out, and if you just pounch our guys long and hard they break down by the 2nd half. We needs lots of new blood there before we go anywhere.

Wow! 2 Bad games and the offensive line suddenly sucks. The same offensive line that beat the Cowboys in Dallas and the high pressure Philly D, sucks. LOL:doh:

We can't blame the lack of intermediate and deep attempts soley on the offensive line.

Jason doesn't get pressure on every passing attempt.

The design of the pass plays and the play-calling, IMO are a bigger issue then the offensive line. The amount of time it takes to complete a short route vs an intermediate route wouldn't/doesn't jusitfiy abandoning the intermediate and deep routes. Bottom line is that our offense focuses on the short passing game. And because of this focus, our offense for lack of a better word......sucks.

Imagine where our season would be if JC didn't audible against the Saints and throw it deep?

[Voice_of_Reason]

If we're gonna be a good team we can't allow our offensive line to prevent us from going deep. Also, just a point of clarity in the OP i refer to deeper passes of the 15 yard variety, not just throwing the 'long ball'. We have managed to throw the ball downfield on occasion, but IMO haven't gone downfield often enough.

...

Bill Walsh said: "...the coaching staff should guard against being "seduced" by the relative ease of completing 3-step drop passes."

(Finding the Winning Edge)

And i think Zorn/Campbell are more then seduced they are in love.

Ok, note of clarification, just so it's clear, I didn't call YOUR post dumb. Just make sure that you got that. This post was in reference to another comment, which I believe was dumb.

This post gets my vote for post of the week.

However, I'm going to disagree with you on a couple of points:

2) IMO the slants have been effective but we don't run them enough and we should run the slant deeper (we run a very flat and shallow slant)

How they run the slant and where the receiver is has to be tied to the timing of where the QB is when he's ready to throw the ball. So I wouldn't mind seeing a deeper slant, but those extra 5-7 steps to get deeper by the WR means that the QB has to hold onto the ball a beat longer, something that they're unwilling to do.

3) You're right about the need to move the pocket. But, how often do we do it? Especially on third down. I can count on 1 hand how many times we use the Sprint out, Roll out, Bootleg, or Waggle.

I've seen it more often than that. I can specifically think of 3-4 in the Dallas game, and there was a 3rd down play on the second drive of the Pitt game where 'Tana was going deep. I think we can probably agree that they could do more of this, but I've definitely seen them doing it. I would like to see them copy what the colts do with play action on the stretch play, which moves the pocket, is a good running play for us, and might help with things in general...

4) We rarely use max protection.

Max-pro, you're right, but especially in the last couple of games, they've been leaving Cooley and a RB in a lot more often. I've noticed fewer people in the routes over the course of the last 2 games, specifically in the second half of the last game.

5) Use the backs in the passing game more, especially when the passing game and pass-pro is struggling

Which they have been doing when they're not staying in to block. There was a play to Betts, and another at the end of the game to Portis. Portis had several catches in the Pitt game, I believe.

Something else to consider: It's Zorn's first year as a play caller, and we have a first year O-Coordinator. I'm not going to pretend to know more than them, but they are certainly learning week to week as well. So maybe they'll figure some stuff out.

Here's hoping. Because they NEED to pick up larger chunks of yardage. 3 yards and a cloud of dust is only going to take you so far.

[2cents]

Sorry DarrellGreenie, they have been getting beat up and about for more than two games. When the Rams and Lions put a ton of pressure on Campbell, there is a problem. Jansen is getting beat on almost every play, and Rabach is getting pushed back almost as often. I think we need some big changes. I don't post here much, and I am not one of those whiney over reacting fans. I just am tired of us letting our bad line play go and not trying to fix what is an obvious problem.

[eljeasel]

thats what she said...

I like going deep. BALLS DEEP.

I mean like, vertical passing. Yeah thats it

[Tin Man]

Wow! 2 Bad games and the offensive line suddenly sucks. The same offensive line that beat the Cowboys in Dallas and the high pressure Philly D, sucks. LOL:doh:

We can't blame the lack of intermediate and deep attempts soley on the offensive line.

Jason doesn't get pressure on every passing attempt.

Well in these last two games, the only time that he hasn't had pressure is when he's handed it off. And these defenders aren't just getting an arm on JC, but they're hitting him at full speed... which means that the so-called pass protection (they need to call it something else, because it sure ain't protectoin - how about Pass NO-protection, or Pass UNprotection, or Pass Protection Break, or Sack Juice) isn't even slowing them down.

[darrelgreenie]

Something else to consider: It's Zorn's first year as a play caller, and we have a first year O-Coordinator. I'm not going to pretend to know more than them, but they are certainly learning week to week as well. So maybe they'll figure some stuff out.

Here's hoping. Because they NEED to pick up larger chunks of yardage. 3 yards and a cloud of dust is only going to take you so far.

We basically agree, and i appreciate that you put some thought into your post.

I think Zorn/Stump/Campbell will improve i just hope it happens soon, like next week. lol.

Sorry DarrellGreenie, they have been getting beat up and about for more than two games. When the Rams and Lions put a ton of pressure on Campbell, there is a problem. Jansen is getting beat on almost every play, and Rabach is getting pushed back almost as often. I think we need some big changes. I don't post here much, and I am not one of those whiney over reacting fans. I just am tired of us letting our bad line play go and not trying to fix what is an obvious problem.

I'm not saying that our offensive line is good, that is not the point of this thread. This thread is about the lack intermediate passing attempts. I've heard the arguement that because the o-line stinks we can't throw downfield. But, if you notice I started this thread back when our offensive line was still being praised. IMO even when the o-line was still playing 'well' Zorn/Campbell were focused on the short passing game.

IMO some of those sacks in the Steelers was a product of them squating on the short routes and Jason not having anywhere to go with the ball. The play calling is part of the problem when it comes to the offensive line. If we only throw short routes, eventually defenses will sit on these routes.

You mention that JC got pressure from the lowly Rams and Lions. Ironically, Jason had his 2 of his better performances in those games. Why? Because Zorn/Jason threw and connected on alot of intermediate routes.

IMO our offensive line does have struggles, no doubt. But, their struggles should not preclude us from attempting intermediate routes. The majority of the routes i'm refering occur in less then 3 seconds, and i think its safe to say that our offensive line can usually pass block for 3 seconds?

IMO our offense needs to incorporate some elements from these WCOs:

Eagles vs Steelers: http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80afefe9

Packers vs Cowboys: http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b02173

[darrelgreenie]

Well in these last two games, the only time that he hasn't had pressure is when he's handed it off. And these defenders aren't just getting an arm on JC, but they're hitting him at full speed... which means that the so-called pass protection (they need to call it something else, because it sure ain't protectoin - how about Pass NO-protection, or Pass UNprotection, or Pass Protection Break, or Sack Juice) isn't even slowing them down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/17/AR2008111703289.html

But on this play, the protection was perfect.

"It was executed well," Zorn said. "It was thrown well. He had to go to heroics to make the catch."

Moss, covered by cornerback Terrence Newman, leapt and twisted in an effort to make the catch. It hit his hands, then fell incomplete. First and goal at the 9 turned into second and 10 from their territory.

Moss's viewpoint, however, is that it takes more than one chance to convert such a play.

"We took one shot," Moss said. "You have to take shots to really make big plays, you know what I'm saying? That's plain and simple. When you're a receiver in this game, you just don't [say], 'Here's your chance, and let's go.' I feel like you have to have opportunities to make big plays."

[refhaf4L]

when its there we will take a shot.

i trust zorns play calling and jc's decision making

No...we simply do not go deep often enough. You make something like that happen, not when it's there. You think the Jets go deep because their receivers get open more downfield? We take 5 shots down field and we convert on average 2 of them. that's 2 more big plays then we are getting now. Santana's dropped ball in the dallas game would not have been as huge as it was had we taken more shots.

[darrelgreenie]

Jason Campbells Passing attempts by distance in the air:

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds att: 165

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds att: 42

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds att: 11

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds att: 3

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds at:t 5

The Seahawks have one of the worst secondaries in the NFL. I'm looking for a increase in the downfield attempts this game. Zorn, Campbell and the Pass Protection have got to step up and attack the Seahawks week secondary.

Campbell averages 4.2 pass attempts in 11-20 yd range

Today is the prime day to attack downfield (11-20+ yd) and i think they'll get it done.

Thoughts?