darrelgreenie Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I would like to see the Skins mix in more of the intermediate and deep WCO routes. What will happen when a defense squats on the short WCO passing game? A team like Tampa Bay that sits in Cover 2 or a team like the G-men that use zone-blitz to bring pressure while covering the hot read or short options? We might be in trouble. -I think Campbell/Zorn need to throw more deeper passes like the 15 yard pass to Devin Thomas. Here are the pass attempts over 11 yards for some WCO QBs: Schaub~36, Farve~38, Griese~35 (in only 4 games), McNabb~51, Rodgers~39, Cutler~60, Hasselbeck~45 *Campbell/Zorn have the fewest pass attempts over 11 yards with 27. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=8440 *stats from the 'Splits:BY PASS PLAY' Check out this clip on the original WCO/Bill Walsh Offense: http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8008fcc1 thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbleedBnG83 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Very interesting. Well, seeing as how we are doing better than all those teams...I'm not concerned. I'll trust Zorn and co. to game plan and decide what routes to throw....ya dig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I think I'll trust these guys to game plan to their opponents, which seems to be what they're doing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 when its there we will take a shot. i trust zorns play calling and jc's decision making Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tone_dubbz Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I would like to see the Skins mix in more of the intermediate and deep WCO routes. What will happen when a defense squats on the short WCO passing game? A team like Tampa Bay that sits in Cover 2 or a team like the G-men that use zone-blitz to bring pressure while covering the hot read or short options? We might be in trouble.-I think Campbell/Zorn need to throw more deeper passes like the 15 yard pass to Devin Thomas. Here are the pass attempts over 11 yards for some WCO QBs: Schaub~36, Farve~38, Griese~35 (in only 4 games), McNabb~51, Rodgers~39, Cutler~60, Hasselbeck~45 *Campbell/Zorn have the fewest pass attempts over 11 yards with 27. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=8440 *stats from the 'Splits:BY PASS PLAY' Check out this clip on the original WCO/Bill Walsh Offense: http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8008fcc1 thoughts? Give it time. Zorn and company are taking what is given to them. Thats what I love about the new offense that we have. When something is working, we exploit it until they stop it. We might not have the most conventional WCO, but thats what makes us unpredictable. Once defenses start locking in on the short routes, Zorn will have double moves and post routes ready. Don't worry, in due time. Heck, maybe this Sunday against the St. Louis Sheep :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffBattles Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Watching this team, the offense doesn't look exactly like a traditional WCO. It is more like a Zorn Offense....a hybrid. We are running the ball a high percentage of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 We've taken deep and intermediate shots. The short passes so far seem to be for tightening up the defense for the long passes. Plus with CP running the way he's been running, things have been working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffree! Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Outside of McNabb every single one of those teams have suspect defenses while most have very marginal running games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibrahim Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 -I think Campbell/Zorn need to throw more deeper passes like the 15 yard pass to Devin Thomas. Here are the pass attempts over 11 yards for some WCO QBs: Schaub~36, Farve~38, Griese~35 (in only 4 games), McNabb~51, Rodgers~39, Cutler~60, Hasselbeck~45 *Campbell/Zorn have the fewest pass attempts over 11 yards with 27. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=8440 The records of the QB's teams: Schaub~36 (0-4) Farve~38 (2-2) Griese~35 (3-2) McNabb~51 (2-3) Rodgers~39 (2-3) Cutler~60 (4-1) Hasselbeck~45 (1-3) Campbell~27 (4-1) 0 interceptions I'll take wins over bombs any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchdown Redskins Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I think Zorn will slowly incorporate those into the offense. Despite our success, Zorn hasn't opened up the playbook at all, and he's just managing the game with plays he knows we run well now. If you look at Matt Hasselbeck's attempts at 60 for >11 yards, that's essentially what Jason Campbell will transform into (in a good way). Right now, I don't think anyone on the offense has enough experience with those kinds of plays to run them effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainChaos47 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I think when we start playing teams with weaker front sevens you will start to see longer routes.. the last two teams weve played are known for getting to the QB and that limits how much time he has to throw. The eagles especially love to blitz a lot and what better way to beat them then to get the ball out of the QB's hands fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgray1111 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 explain exactly why we should go deep. Will it win us more games? Will it keep the turnovers to a minimum? I'll answer for you....NO! What they're doing right now is perfect for the point where the team is at in the learning process and for the key personnel on the field. I don't think any of us can question zorn's play selection at this point, because it's been just about perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 The records of the QB's teams:Schaub~36 (0-4) Farve~38 (2-2) Griese~35 (3-2) McNabb~51 (2-3) Rodgers~39 (2-3) Cutler~60 (4-1) Hasselbeck~45 (1-3) Campbell~27 (4-1) 0 interceptions I'll take wins over bombs any day. Whose talking about bombs? I think it will be important in the future to connect on the deeper pass patterns/routes in the WCO more often then we do now. Passes like the 15 yard pass to Devin Thomas or passes to Cooley's passes over the middle. I'm not sure why you listed those QB's records? Are you implying that those QBs records are worse then the Skins because they throw the ball downfield more often? Every one of those teams, except for Seattle, has a higher rated passing attack then the Redskins. Simply put: Throwing the ball greater then 11 yards downfield is an area the Redskins must improve in to become an elite offense. P.S.- Did you watch the link? -Just curious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunobulax Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Whew! I'm glad this thread was about football! I thought maybe the forum was getting waaaaaaay off topic for a second! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan07 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Very interesting. Well, seeing as how we are doing better than all those teams...I'm not concerned. I'll trust Zorn and co. to game plan and decide what routes to throw....ya dig? I can dig it! We might as well keep doing what works until they stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 Very interesting. Well, seeing as how we are doing better than all those teams...I'm not concerned. I'll trust Zorn and co. to game plan and decide what routes to throw....ya dig? We may have an overall better team but not a better passing game and the passing game is the topic of this thread. Like i said above our downfield passing attempts (passes greater then 11 yards) is the lowest of the 'WCO' based passing attacks. Its just something to watch as the season progresses. IMO its an area for improvement to become an elite offense and we have the personnel to excell in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydogg3eb Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Yeah, I disagree with this thread. I mean, we have been in this offense for 5 games. Were still learning, and we happen to be doing well at the same time. Not to mention, I remember seeing lots of passes like "the 15 yarder to Devin". I know that we didnt spread the field too much against Philly, but you have to remember they double-covered Santana the entire game, so he we had to use our underneath weapons, which we did really well. If you want to see us go deep, just reference the Dallas, Arizona, and New Orleans games. We went to deep to Santana twice against Dallas, we found Devin wide open against Arizona, and we went deep on the game-winning bomb to Santana against New Orleans. The point is, we dont shoot deep often, but when we do, its deadly. I, for one, am happy with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisc0015 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 When you play the #2 - #6 ranked offenses in your first 5 games, part of the strategy is ball control. Why force the long pass? If you can move the ball consistently with short throws and good runs, then you give your defense a rest and keep the other offense off the field. Like everyone else said, I'll take our W-L statistics over these other team's Long Pass Attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbleedBnG83 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 We may have an overall better team but not a better passing game and the passing game is the topic of this thread. Like i said above our downfield passing attempts (passes greater then 11 yards) is the lowest of the 'WCO' based passing attacks. Its just something to watch as the season progresses. IMO its an area for improvement to become an elite offense and we have the personnel to excell in this area. I'm not as fixed on the label "West Coast Offense" as others. You are talking about an elite offense, yet most of those other teams you mentioned are doing well. Our offense has done well against some of the better defenses. I'll trust Zorn to game plan and decide whether we need to go down field more or not. If the offense has been inept and we have been doing poorly against lesser defenses, I would then give this more thought. I think its an interesting stat, but irrelevant at this point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 Yeah, I disagree with this thread. I mean, we have been in this offense for 5 games. Were still learning, and we happen to be doing well at the same time. Not to mention, I remember seeing lots of passes like "the 15 yarder to Devin". I know that we didnt spread the field too much against Philly, but you have to remember they double-covered Santana the entire game, so he we had to use our underneath weapons, which we did really well. If you want to see us go deep, just reference the Dallas, Arizona, and New Orleans games. We went to deep to Santana twice against Dallas, we found Devin wide open against Arizona, and we went deep on the game-winning bomb to Santana against New Orleans. The point is, we dont shoot deep often, but when we do, its deadly. I, for one, am happy with that. You disagree with wanting to improve the passing attack? Going Deep is just the title. I'm clearly not refering to throwing 'bombs'. In the OP i reference the stats about passing attempts beyond 11 yards, this is the 'going deep' i'm refering to the intermediate passing game, the 5-7 seven step drops and the routes that go along with it. All of the WCO teams with superior passing attacks all have a greater number of attempts in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 I'm not as fixed on the label "West Coast Offense" as others. You are talking about an elite offense, yet most of those other teams you mentioned are doing well. Our offense has done well against some of the better defenses. I'll trust Zorn to game plan and decide whether we need to go down field more or not. If the offense has been inept and we have been doing poorly against lesser defenses, I would then give this more thought. I think its an interesting stat, but irrelevant at this point in time. The teams of the QBs i listed, except for Seattle, all have superior rated passing offenses then the Redskins. IMO our downfield passing attack i.e. (passes beyond 11 yards) is an area for improvement, which doesn't mean that our passing attack is inept by any means. Just that it could be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 Give it time. Zorn and company are taking what is given to them. Thats what I love about the new offense that we have. When something is working, we exploit it until they stop it. We might not have the most conventional WCO, but thats what makes us unpredictable. Once defenses start locking in on the short routes, Zorn will have double moves and post routes ready. Don't worry, in due time. Heck, maybe this Sunday against the St. Louis Sheep :doh: Dude, it would be great if we could beat the piss out Al Saunders and the Rams. I think/hope that as Zorn opens up the offense we will go downfield more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel2 Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 You play to the competitions weakness and you play to our strengths, presently. As Troy Aikman pointed out, the Skins will be a hard team to defense once our rookie WRs are up to par in the passing game. Every team we have played against thus far can light it offensively, therefore, it makes more sense to feature the running game to keep our previous opponents off the field. The bottom line: we are 4 and 1, it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 I think Zorn will slowly incorporate those into the offense. Despite our success, Zorn hasn't opened up the playbook at all, and he's just managing the game with plays he knows we run well now. If you look at Matt Hasselbeck's attempts at 60 for >11 yards, that's essentially what Jason Campbell will transform into (in a good way). Right now, I don't think anyone on the offense has enough experience with those kinds of plays to run them effectively. Good point, we are young in the offense and the downfield attempts maybe coming in the future. I think how quickly we can incorporate some of the deeper routes will be key in determining how explosive this offense can become over the course of the season. I guess i'm a little eager for Campbell to reach the level of Hasselbeck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomE Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Not sure if anyone has actually "analyzed" the dispersion of the receivers on each play of every game but I suspect that the deeper routes are part of every game plan. Campbell is still being pushed to read and react quickly. As he progresses, he may get a better feel for the timing of those longer routes which should begin to open more effectively as defenses hone in on the "quick" stuff. As others have mentioned, our opponents have also dictated game plans. All have been potent offenses which can score quickly, we needed to keep them off the field so the predominantly dink-dunk-run offense has served us well, so far. Campbell has also effectively ad-libed under the pressure of the defenses, the timing of longer passing has not been optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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