Go Deep Young Man!

[darrelgreenie]

That's easier said than done.

To me the skins just need that extra 1/2 second in the pocket. Or Campbell to scramble more;).

Malcolm Kelley doesn't hurt, either. How many wanna bet that Zorn runs fade to the strong side in this game?

No doubt, i'm watching for a fade route or a back shoulder this week. I like that JC & JZ seem to have alot of faith in Kelly.

The line or JC creating a little more time in the pocket would be great, but in the 1st half we took some shots which proves that we can get the time. But, we ignored the intermediate passing game. Then in the second half with Clinton gashing them we didn't throw anything downfield.:doh:

We'll need a more complete passing game to make any kind of playoff run. And i think we're getting closer but will it be to late?

[darrelgreenie]

3 step drops, 5 step drops, 7 step drops. Although the receivers may run different routes, the QB is going to be doing one of these 3. More steps = longer passes. As Zorn has explained before, when he doesn't have protection on 3 step drops (a very quick pass) he doesn't have the luxury of calling 7 step drops (takes longer for play to develop).

No doubt, if there's no protection for a 3 step drop then you can't do anything else. But, C'mon man. Its rare that we get pressure on a 3 step drop and there are deeper routes that can be run from a 3 step drop then a 5 yard hitch.

Looking back to the Seattle game the o-line's blocking was decent and we threw some deeper passes in the 1st half. But, in the second half despite the fact the Clinton was gashing them we had zero downfield attempts. IMO that's not the lines fault, that's a JZ & JC issue.

Give Campbell a great O-Line and he can can take a lounge chair into the backfield and wait for all the receivers to get open, like Romo sits to pee does. In the meantime, the slower developing plays are called less often.

I agree. But, Romo sits to pee often completes passes in the 10-20 yard range in rhythm form a 3 step or 5 step drop. The difference in time to complete alot of the routes and patterns that we run vs the routes they run is negligible. Would you agree that our o-line can usually give around 2.5 seconds of pass protection? (sometimes less, sometimes more)*

[Spitfire71]

I have no problem with the short passes - if it weren't for us using them, people would stack the box with eight guys.

As much as I like long passes, you have to pick your spots and get good blocking.

I want to see more passes in the 8-15 yard range. Among other things that's where certain players on our offense excel, like...Chris Cooley, for instance.

[darrelgreenie]

Thanks for the post.

I have no problem with the short passes - if it weren't for us using them, people would stack the box with eight guys.

I don't have a problem with the short passes. They are easier to complete and help keep the clock running. IMO the short passing game could prevent teams from stacking the box IF went 4 or 5 wide. But, the dink and dunk from a base formation doesn't appear to be effective in getting the SS out of the box. (e.g. Steelers, Cowboys)

As much as I like long passes, you have to pick your spots and get good blocking....I want to see more passes in the 8-15 yard range. Among other things that's where certain players on our offense excel, like...Chris Cooley, for instance.

Although Cooley is having a pro-bowl year i'm surprised that Jason/Zorn don't feature him more. IMO we should be using Cooley downfield like this:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b98b63

I think the intermediate passing attempts (11-20 yards) and the deep passing attempts are the missing elements that would make our offense explosive. LETS GO ZORN! LETS GO CAMPBELL!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/29/AR2008112902038.html

"Look at Eli. Look at [ben] Roethlisberger. Look at Philip Rivers, and look at Jason,"....former Redskins quarterback Joe Theismann said this week......"I think he throws the ball as well. I think he has the same command of an offense. I think he's as tough as those guys are. What he lacks right now is the vertical passing game to showcase his skills as a quarterback."

Like a homer i feel that the passing game is ready to breakout, everygame. Watch out for a big game vs the Giants!!

[darrelgreenie]

Update Post Seattle Game:

Pass Thrown: Behind the line: 55

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds att: 186

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds att: 46

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds att: 11

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds att: 3

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds att: 6

GIANT GAME STATS:

Pass Thrown: Behind the line: 63-55=8

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds att: 204-186=18

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds att: 50-46=4

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds att: 12-11=1

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds att: 3 no change

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds att: 8-6=2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440

ESPN lists Campbell w/ 33 passing attempts:

of those 33, only 5 were attempted in the 11-30 range

2 were attempted 41+ yards

In contrast Eli completed 7 passes greater then 11 yards downfield in their 1st 2 drives....

Listen to Cooley in the presser mention the lack of intermediate and downfield passing game....

http://redskins.com/gen/index.jsp

I know what we are, but keep expecting Zorn and JC to start passing 11-20 yards downfield with regularity but it just doesn't happen. :doh:

[Voice_of_Reason]

I wrote this in another thread, based on my observations at the Giants game:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=5882617&postcount=66

Could go in both threads.

[cphil006]

Do the Giants run this awesome WCO?? NO. And neither should we.

Everyone thinks it is great because you complete a 4 yard pass.

[cphil006]

GIANT GAME STATS:

Pass Thrown: Behind the line: 63-55=8

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds att: 204-186=18

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds att: 50-46=4

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds att: 12-11=1

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds att: 3 no change

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds att: 8-6=2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440

ESPN lists Campbell w/ 33 passing attempts:

of those 33, only 5 were attempted in the 11-30 range

2 were attempted 41+ yards

In contrast Eli completed 7 passes greater then 11 yards downfield in their 1st 2 drives....

Listen to Cooley in the presser mention the lack of intermediate and downfield passing game....

http://redskins.com/gen/index.jsp

I know what we are, but keep expecting Zorn and JC to start passing 11-20 yards downfield with regularity but it just doesn't happen. :doh:

Good point. Basically out of 33 pass attempts, 7 were more than 10 yards or between 30-40. Not enough 15 yard passes.I think it is JC more than Zorn. Campbell stutters when he throws. He pump fakes to the WR he throws to. It gives the defense more time to get there. He is afraid to take chances.

[darrelgreenie]

Good point. Basically out of 33 pass attempts, 7 were more than 10 yards or between 30-40. Not enough 15 yard passes.I think it is JC more than Zorn. Campbell stutters when he throws. He pump fakes to the WR he throws to. It gives the defense more time to get there. He is afraid to take chances.

Thanks for the post but i gotta disagree, IMO its Zorn's playcalling that keeps the passing game short not JC.

Campbell showed a willingness to throw the ball downfield last year. Why would he just suddenly become Mr.Checkdown? Remember that long ball against the Saints that was a Campbell audilble.

IMO it seems that alot of the routes and pass plays are designed 5-8 yards downfield. JC often takes a short drop throws in rhythm for a short gain. If that is the design of the play how is that JC's fault?

-I don't see JC stuttering when he throws i just don't see it

-I don't recall JC pump faking that often and plenty of QBs pump fake before they throw...Farve, Eli, Peyton

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost...7&postcount=66

Read this ^^post^^ from someone who was at the game

[Voice_of_Reason]

Good point. Basically out of 33 pass attempts, 7 were more than 10 yards or between 30-40. Not enough 15 yard passes.I think it is JC more than Zorn. Campbell stutters when he throws. He pump fakes to the WR he throws to. It gives the defense more time to get there. He is afraid to take chances.

I didn't see a single pump fake in the game against the Giants. It was cold and miserable, so I could have missed one or two, but if it was a trend, I would have caught it.

There was one play when he had good protection, and it looked like he just couldn't pull the trigger. He kept WANTING to throw it, but eventually gave up and ran to his left and was pulled down. I was looking down field a bit, and there was SQUAT ALL open. They were TRYING to take a shot, but there was nothing there. Any place he throws the ball, it's a jump ball best case, and with midget receivers, that's not a risk I think he should take.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Thanks for the post but i gotta disagree, IMO its Zorn's playcalling that keeps the passing game short not JC.

Campbell showed a willingness to throw the ball downfield last year. Why would he just suddenly become Mr.Checkdown? Remember that long ball against the Saints that was a Campbell audilble.

IMO it seems that alot of the routes and pass plays are designed 5-8 yards downfield. JC often takes a short drop throws in rhythm for a short gain. If that is the design of the play how is that JC's fault?

-I don't see JC stuttering when he throws i just don't see it

-I don't recall JC pump faking that often and plenty of QBs pump fake before they throw...Farve, Eli, Peyton

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost...7&postcount=66

Read this ^^post^^ from someone who was at the game

The more and more I think about this, I think it's psychological. Hear me out: I think the crappy line blocking is in Zorns head. I've probably said this before, but I think he's completely terrified of putting JC back there now, so he's completely gone into an offensive shell. He's not even willing to let the offense try and go deep because he's so worried about getting his QB killed. And this becomes a death spiral. Defensive Coordinators get paid too, so they see this on film, and plan for it. Even without a blitz, the ball is coming out quick, so the routes are going to be short, so you can jump the routes, jam the receivers, and throw off the timing.

Because of all the short passes, it brings extra defenders into the box, which has the added bonus of supporting the run. DOH. So the whole things a mess. But I think it starts up front with the O-Line. If there was SOME confidence there, I think they'd try some other things. I just don't think Zorn has ANY confidence in them at all. And Jason looks like he doesn't either, which is why he's starting to check down more quickly (according to Zorn) than he probably should. You get hit in the chops enough, that's going to happen.

The final thought on this is that one sure fire way to break the trend is to, well, break the trend. A pump n' go would work spectacularly. It's something that Peyton and Harrison do so well that it's got them both tickets to Canton. 3 step drop, pump the out, the CB generally has to respect the fake if its in time with the WR move, WR immediately breaks up field, and the QB immediately throws a fade. All from a 3 step drop. IF you get just a beat of time from the O-Line (you need about 1.8 seconds, from what I have been told), it works beautifully, if you like to run quick outs. The Colts run the damn things all the time. But CBs are hesitant to creep up on them, because the minute they do, BANG, it's over their head for 6.

Granted, JC is not Peyton, and Moss/other schmoes are not Harrison. But it COULD definitely work here.

EDIT: Btw, your link done be broken.

[darrelgreenie]

.... I think he's completely terrified of putting JC back there now, so he's completely gone into an offensive shell. He's not even willing to let the offense try and go deep because he's so worried about getting his QB killed.... But I think it starts up front with the O-Line. If there was SOME confidence there, I think they'd try some other things. I just don't think Zorn has ANY confidence in them at all. And Jason looks like he doesn't either, which is why he's starting to check down more quickly (according to Zorn) than he probably should. You get hit in the chops enough, that's going to happen.

You know, Zorn basically said as much today? http://www.espn980.com/audiovault/

Rough quote from Zorn talking about early in the game........"I [Zorn] didn't know what kind of protection we were gonna have. So I tried to throw quicker rhythm throws not 3 step drops but 5 step, that could get us the 1st or near the 1st down but we kept getting tackled at the catch.........I could have gone the other route and tried to get deeper routes going and risk protection and I wasn't willing to do that at that particular time"

I don't get it for someone so worried about the pass-pro you would think he'd move the pocket more:doh:

I'm hoping since the pass-pro was better last game that we'll see more 5 and 7 step drops.

If Zorn is looking for receivers to make yards after the catch throw it to Devin Thomas! dude is a horse.

A pump n' go would work spectacularly.

Or Slant-Go.

I can't remember the team but, i saw them pump fake the WR screen and send the blocking receiver deep. It might be on NFL playbook.

We showed the Giants an 8 man front and they attacked deep from the very 1st snap. The Giants showed an 8 man front and we couldn't or didn't attack it. Now I say screw the passing game and just run the dang ball.

[darrelgreenie]

A pump n' go would work spectacularly. It's something that Peyton and Harrison do so well that it's got them both tickets to Canton. 3 step drop, pump the out, the CB generally has to respect the fake if its in time with the WR move, WR immediately breaks up field, and the QB immediately throws a fade. All from a 3 step drop. IF you get just a beat of time from the O-Line (you need about 1.8 seconds, from what I have been told), it works beautifully, if you like to run quick outs. The Colts run the damn things all the time. But CBs are hesitant to creep up on them, because the minute they do, BANG, it's over their head for 6.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80bca153

Hitch & Go

[darrelgreenie]

Jason Campbell #17 QB» Add Widget

2008 STATS

RAT YDS TD

87.8 2,560 10

New Update from ESPN

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440

BY PASS PLAY CMP ATT

Pass Thrown: Behind line 49 66

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. 154 228

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. 30 57

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. 6 15

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. 0 4

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. 2 8

Go Skins!

[Voice_of_Reason]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80bca153

Hitch & Go

And if you look really carefully, you can see a number things on that play:

1. the DB was peaking into the backfield.

2. Peyton pumped at exactly the same moment that Gonzales did the fake hitch. It wasn't much, just a flintch really, but it was enough.

3. Down and Distance: It was 4th and 3, so they extended the field, throwing past the yard marker. They didn't try and clog everything in 3 yards, they gave themselves more space.

4. GB rushed only 4, dropped 7 into coverage.

5. GB ran a stunt with the D-Line. The Left DT pushed to the right occupying the Center and LG, and the Right DT stunted around to the left. The center recognized this, got off of the RDT picked up the stunting LDT and stoned him cold.

6. The LT rand the RDE right out of the play so that Manning had a place to throw the ball.

6.5 There was nobody within 5 yards of Peyton when he made the throw.

7. Whoever the RB was flared out to the right, so if the hitch n' go was covered, there was an outlet.

I can't quite see what the other WRs did, it loos like one ran a drag route to the sticks and stopped, the TE on Gonzales' side ran something deep, probably a deep slant to pull the safety coverage away from the htich/go.

The CB completely bit the pump because he was looking at Peyton. That's such a no-no with that offense with that QB.

They do this so unbelievably well, with all of their WR.

With our running game and the propensity to throw short, these types of things would be open all day.

They ran this out of the shotgun, but I've seen them run it from under center also.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I don't get it for someone so worried about the pass-pro you would think he'd move the pocket more:doh:

I'm hoping since the pass-pro was better last game that we'll see more 5 and 7 step drops.

If Zorn is looking for receivers to make yards after the catch throw it to Devin Thomas! dude is a horse.

Or Slant-Go.

I can't remember the team but, i saw them pump fake the WR screen and send the blocking receiver deep. It might be on NFL playbook.

We showed the Giants an 8 man front and they attacked deep from the very 1st snap. The Giants showed an 8 man front and we couldn't or didn't attack it. Now I say screw the passing game and just run the dang ball.

I think the pass protection was better in the Giants game was a mirage. Honestly. I think it was just as bad, they just didn't let it get bad by throwing more quick stuff.

He's terrified to death of getting JC killed. Terrified. I think he's completely lost confidence in the O-Lines ability to pass block. That's not good. But it is what it is. So we're going to run into a brick wall and throw quick stuff all day long until he regains that confidence.

I don't know why they don't move the pocket more. Maybe they figure that JC has to run out of the pocket on every play anyway, why plan it? /sarcasm.

As for Thomas, they need to get the ball into his hands. Zorn took a veiled shot at him in the Jim Zorn Show, said, something basically like, "we have to get him the ball, even if the only way is to hand it to him." I was like, YOUCH.

[redskins55]

The key to going deep is #1. having time to throw deep, and #2 having the guts to call the deep play. Once the Line starts creating a comfortable pocket for Campbell then Zorn will call more deep throws.

[Voice_of_Reason]

The key to going deep is #1. having time to throw deep, and #2 having the guts to call the deep play. Once the Line starts creating a comfortable pocket for Campbell then Zorn will call more deep throws.

Actually, it's more than that.

1. The guts to call it.

2. The protection

3. The receiver gives the QB a window to throw into

4. The QB makes the right read

5. The QB makes an throw

6. The receiver catches the damn ball.

Lots of things have to happen. It's not quite as easy as "run a 9 route" like some people like to suggest.

Agree with your overall point, however. The Line blocking is poor, and until it gets better, Zorn doesn't have the confidence to call deep plays.

Regardless, at the moment, I'm not sure that I trust 2-4 above to work if they did call them. Somewhere, something would break down. And it's not all JC's fault, but it seems when they do call a deep play, something breaks down, the protection, the throw, the routes, or the catch. (That one, btw, ticks me off more than any of the others. If the ball hits you in the hands, CATCH THE DAMN BALL.)

[skins2victory]

when its there we will take a shot.

i trust zorns play calling and jc's decision making

-I do too, the thing is when the play is there it needs to be exicuted, down to the catch w/ both feet in bounds!!

-I feel that Moss needs to step it up alittle, he has been way to quite latley!!