Zorn, Campbell, and QB Mechanics (August, 2008)

[BigRedskinDaddy]

...Jason had a nasty habit of not moving his feet (lazy footwork) when he came off a downfield route to use an outlet receiver. He made those throws solely by adjusting his arm angle. The result was that his passes spiraled tail down. The accuracy was poor and they were tough passes to catch. Sellars dropped two of them last year. I didn't see any of those in the preseason.

Good observation. One of the best examples of good footwork in the leauge is not coincidentally one of the game's premier passers: Peyton Manning. When he sets up in the pocket his feet NEVER stop moving. This allows him to go through his progressions at the proper angle/direction, which in turn leads to his passes being delivered quickly and accurately.

Additionally, it gives him ample opportunity to stay in the pocket and sidestep the pass rush without taking his eyes off his reads. For a less than mobile QB as Manning is, getting flushed is surely not in his or the team's best interests on pass plays.

JC is incredibly strong-armed. He has an absolute cannon. I think that's a big part of why his footwork and mechanics have been so sloppy to this point. He's relied on that arm strength to make the short and intermediate throws without getting into the proper position because he COULD, not because he should.

[Kumukai]

Nicely said.

[Wyvern]

Will Campbell's throwing mechanics improve under Zorn? ...Highly probable.

Will Campbell retain those improved mechanics in game-time pressure? ...Likely, but some of the his earlier games have revealed a degree of reversion to old habits.

Will Campbell's new mechanics result in a better passing game? ...Not possible to determine. There too many other factors (both internal to Campbell and external regarding his surrounding cast) that are as important to a successful passing game ... and some maybe more important.

Does Campbell needs to improve in those other areas to be a franchise QB of the Redskins? ...Absolutely! Not only does Campbell need to work on those other areas mentioned in Oldfan's original post, he also needs to develop the ability to raise the level of play of those around him during the challenging times. Otherwise Campbell will never be able to take the next step up from being an average 'techician' type of QB. And it remains to be seen just how much Zorn can help Campbell with these areas.

BOTTOM LINE: Like it or not, the Skins took the gamble on Campbell. So they need to give Campbell a full year to show what he's capable of delivering. ...Time will tell whether this was a good gamble.

[Oldfan]

JC is incredibly strong-armed. He has an absolute cannon. I think that's a big part of why his footwork and mechanics have been so sloppy to this point. He's relied on that arm strength to make the short and intermediate throws without getting into the proper position because he COULD, not because he should.

I think this is what Al Saunders meant when he told us that Jason's athleticism had been good enough for success in high school and college, but he needed better techniques in the NFL where the margin for error is slimmer.

That 70% completion rate his senior year at Auburn doesn't tell us enough about Jason' s accuracy.

Like Al, Jim Zorn wants an outlet pass thrown so that the receiver can catch it in stride and run with it. Just completing it isn't enough. So, both receiver and QB have to run that option precisely. The same, of course, is true for all the patterns.

[Oldfan]

Wyvern, thanks for the excellent summary in #53.

Will Campbell's new mechanics result in a better passing game?

I think Jim Zorn will give us a better passing game eventually, but there's much to be done. I won't be alarmed if it looks like crap for a while.

[eljeasel]

Hasslebeck isn't "great" but, when I think of starting QBs whose mechanics have been reworked, his name is the only one that springs to mind.

I think , for the most part, QB coaches are reluctant to do anything but minor tweaks.

OF, I remember seeing a segment on a half time show where some analysts were talking about mechanics and throwing motion. Specifically they were talking about 2 quarterbacks (Peyton Manning and Ben Roth.)and how they had changed their throwing motions and how they held the ball prior to throwing. Of course, it only my memory but they were showing throws from Peyton's first year and the season at the time(at this point it was much later in his career, maybe he was 28?). I was amazed to see a noticable difference in throwing motion and how the thrown ball looked (a little crisper). You always hear about how Peyton was so polished coming out of college but it seems like the only thing that was finished was his work ethic. Thats probably a bit too extreme to say with any certainty but the mechanics tweaks probably happen more than we hear about. Big Ben didnt really change his motion. The analysis on him was talking about how he had developed a bad habit of holding the ball high in his 2nd year.(because he ended up dipping the ball down to throw it).

[eljeasel]

Wyvern, thanks for the excellent summary in #53.

I think Jim Zorn will give us a better passing game eventually, but there's much to be done. I won't be alarmed if it looks like crap for a while.

Another great deduction. There is a whole lot of work to be done and it might be ugly.

[HogTastic]

OF, I remember seeing a segment on a half time show where some analysts were talking about mechanics and throwing motion. Specifically they were talking about 2 quarterbacks (Peyton Manning and Ben Roth.)and how they had changed their throwing motions and how they held the ball prior to throwing. Of course, it only my memory but they were showing throws from Peyton's first year and the season at the time(at this point it was much later in his career, maybe he was 28?). I was amazed to see a noticable difference in throwing motion and how the thrown ball looked (a little crisper). You always hear about how Peyton was so polished coming out of college but it seems like the only thing that was finished was his work ethic. Thats probably a bit too extreme to say with any certainty but the mechanics tweaks probably happen more than we hear about. Big Ben didnt really change his motion. The analysis on him was talking about how he had developed a bad habit of holding the ball high in his 2nd year.(because he ended up dipping the ball down to throw it).

Hey great posts with lost of info...thanks.

On a side note I found this hilarious spoof of PTI I thought yall would enjoy.

http://www.digitalfuntown.com/videos/90

[Gigantor]

.... This messing with the man's mechanics is a bold experiment by Jim Zorn. I doubt that anyone including Jim Zorn knows right now how it will turn out when put under pressure, with real bullets flying.

I think we have our answer, the experiment failed and now the FO is trying to get rid of JC.

Thanks JC for trying...

[MumboSauce]

I think we have our answer, the experiment failed and now the FO is trying to get rid of JC.

Thanks JC for trying...

I think that will be determined this season if he's still around. Drastically changing a players mechanics and a WC system implemented...Do you really think it's fair to already say it failed? I mean you very well may be right, but I think it's a little snap..and I'm not a huge JC fan right now.

BTW big up Odenton I like that city..I'm in Hanover right down the road lol

[MumboSauce]

edit: just realized this is a pretty old post/entry. but it still stands as I've read some recent stuff from you Oldfan.

I enjoy reading your post whether I agree with them or not. You offer a different take, some great points...presented well,etc. Your posts always stand out to me when I'm just looking thread to thread skimming...but I actually slow down and read yours in their entirety. Glad you're part of the community here and make these posts. It gets me thinking about the team and the parts that make it up in ways I previously hadn't.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Romo sits to pee's new offense was the same philosophy as his old one, and even used the same verbage. As was Tom Brady's new one with Jason Garrett.

Thats the dif b/w Jerry, Kraft and Snyder. They don't get rid of everything when they don't like it. They keep the good parts.

That excuse doesn't wash with JC, he ran the WCO in college, and Saunders came form the same school of offense as Gibbs.

As the post says, excuses, excuses, excuses.

[Gigantor]

Do you really think it's fair to already say it failed?

BTW big up Odenton I like that city..I'm in Hanover right down the road lol

I guess I should've said it failed in the eyes of Zorn/Snyder. I like JC, but I do think he's not a good fit for a WC offense. If Gibbs would've picked someone other than Saunders as the offensive Coordinator, someone with a run-first, play action pass mentality, I'm sure we would've won a SB by now.

I love Gibbs, but IMO, choosing Saunders was his biggest mistake... I think he realized it later on, but it was too late by then.

[jtyler42]

*Sigh* Excuses excuses excuses. Win some darn ball games already. Throughout last season, what game can you point to as one JC won for us. I am sorry he just does not have "it."

I'm so tired of hearing this BS about JC....

Hmm let's see: He won the NO, Ari, 1st Cowboys, Lions, and Sea games...He also led 4th quarter comebacks against the Rams, and 49ers that the defense lost...

Now I want you or anybody to point out games last yr that we lost solely on JC's poor play?

[bubba9497]

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Damn, who bumped this sucker? lol

[FightingIrishman]

As a fan, I can't look at a QB and grade him on the mental side of the game. I don't know what "it" or "moxie" looks like. I can't read facial expressions and determine "poise" from "baffled." I don't know what "leadership" looks like from the stands. I don't know any way to tell whether Jason Campbell is picking up the offense and making the correct reads.

But I watch a passer's mechanics and the flight of the ball very closely.

The perfect throwing motion doesn't exist. It isn't possible for a QB to make all types of throws equally well. There are tradeoffs involved no matter what throwing motion is used.

Dan Marino's father had him down on both knees when teaching him to throw a football. Many coaches teach young QBs to throw from one knee. Two different approaches get two different results. Then you have guys like Colt Brennan who is winging it his own way.

Coaches are usually reluctant to change a young QB's mechanics if he has been getting good results. However, if the coach is convinced the guy won't make it if left alone, then there's nothing to lose by trying.

Jim Zorn has remodeled Jason Campbell's mechanics so drastically that we are watching a different QB than we saw here in prior seasons. He will make some throws better, but will have problems with others. I think we will see overall improvement in accuracy which was my main concern about him in the past.

I don't know how so many fans can be certain Jason will fail, while others are equally sure he won't. This messing with the man's mechanics is a bold experiment by Jim Zorn. I doubt that anyone including Jim Zorn knows right now how it will turn out when put under pressure, with real bullets flying.

You lost me in the first paragraph. You do not know what leadership looks like? That is right! It is because you have not seen it at the QB position in near 20 years.

Certain Jason will fail? M8, Jason Campbell has failed. He is a first round QB BUST.

Go ahead and accept mediocrity all you want, but I for one will not.

[bubba9497]

You lost me in the first paragraph. You do not know what leadership looks like? That is right! It is because you have not seen it at the QB position in near 20 years.

Certain Jason will fail? M8, Jason Campbell has failed. He is a first round QB BUST.

Go ahead and accept mediocrity all you want, but I for one will not.

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

funniest thing I read all night, 100% incorrect, but funny none the less

[FightingIrishman]

Ya know bubba, instead of insinuating with a glib and coy comment that I am wrong.... say how or why.

Be part of the solution with intelligent thought, not part of the problem like usual.

[Oldfan]

I was surprised to see this old thread of mine back up on the first page this morning; but maybe Gigantor is right in bumping it. Maybe it's a good time for a status check on Zorn's experiment with Jason's mechanics.

As I see it...the good news: Jason looks like a much improved QB mechanically -- he now looks much quicker, more like a WCO quarterback -- his accuracy has improved somewhat, especially on short tosses -- I didn't see any offsetting harm done by the makeover.

The bad news: I heard various reports about Jason's uncanny accuracy in practice that I didn't see on gameday under pressure -- didn't keep a stat on it, but it seemed to me that Jason did not do well with his timing on the slants, and slants are very basic to the WCO

Overall, it's my impression that Jason's gangly, long-armed six-five frame is going to limit his potential for accuracy, but he is a much better QB today than the one we drafted out of Auburn.

In another thread, I said that Jason has a good chance to be selected for the Pro Bowl this season. And, in other threads, I supported the move to replace him with Jay Cutler, and, assuming Jim Zorn wants him badly, I'm on board for a serious move to draft Mark Sanchez. Those positions aren't contradictory.

I think Jason is a mid-level starting QB on a team with all the signs pointed upward except for the O line. If the opportunity presents itself to replace him with a grade A quarterback, I'd take it, but otherwise I'm not going to be one of those fans screaming for a change. I suspect that Dan and Vinny, on Jim Zorn's advice, feel about the same.

Note to ciresolstice: Thanks for the kind words.

[gortiz]

I think we have our answer, the experiment failed and now the FO is trying to get rid of JC.

Thanks JC for trying...

huh?

i swear ...

look at who is runnign the experiment ...

whether you like jason or not, NO ONE, and I FREAKING MEAN NO ONE, can intelligently argue that the redskins didn't CRAPPED the bed with his development and never gave him a fighters chance to grow as a QB.

it might be time to move on and get another qb, but it is not because the qb was no good...its because as an org his development was horrible.

[jimster]

huh?

i swear ...

look at who is runnign the experiment ...

whether you like jason or not, NO ONE, and I FREAKING MEAN NO ONE, can intelligently argue that the redskins didn't CRAPPED the bed with his development and never gave him a fighters chance to grow as a QB.

it might be time to move on and get another qb, but it is not because the qb was no good...its because as an org his development was horrible.

It's funny that when the other 31 teams in the NFL have a player not work out, it's because the player's no good. When a player doesn't work out here, it's the organization's fault.

[bowhunter]

..

Now I want you or anybody to point out games last yr that we lost solely on JC's poor play?

Every game that we scored less than 22 points and the defense held to the same number

(Giants,Rams,Cowboys,Bengals)

[Taylor 36]

It's funny that when the other 31 teams in the NFL have a player not work out, it's because the player's no good. When a player doesn't work out here, it's the organization's fault.

Every game that we scored less than 22 points and the defense held to the same number

(Giants,Rams,Cowboys,Bengals)

:applause: Great posts, both of you!!!

[Ghost of]

huh?

i swear ...

look at who is runnign the experiment ...

whether you like jason or not, NO ONE, and I FREAKING MEAN NO ONE, can intelligently argue

Actually, they can argue, it's been argued and hell, ASF posted well before any of this that Jason Campbell was a likely bust. He has his own numbers he uses but he did it before this hullabaloo about it.

As for intelligent argument, you could try once or twice to actually advance one, since I mostly see sniping from you about other posters and questioning their 'expert' knowledge when you're not an expert yourself and simply assert opinions as facts.