Zorn, Campbell, and QB Mechanics (August, 2008)

[turbodiesel#44]

Tell me a great QB that played in 3-4 systems throughout his career, and I'm not talking about a 15 yr career with 4 systems, but your first 4 years in the league

I don't think JC has grasped any system yet. At least not enough to make it work. And can you tell me what the difference was between Gibbs system and Saunders? Because I never saw JC attempt Saunders system. Unless it was CP off tackle even more. Yeah, I HEARD about the 700 page playbook. JC used a couple dozen pages at most. The Cliffs notes version, and didn't do much with that.

[BG]

I think this is a crucial thread. One that asks a question that many people should have some differing and interesting opinions on.

I think there is no right or wrong way to play the position. Just do what it takes to win. That is all. Don't throw INT's unless you put so many pts on the board that you don't know what else to do.

Don't throw dump offs all day, unless you have a offense that has streched the lead so much that you are showing mercy.

Don't think to hard. Make it fun and get your playmakers involved. I think we see something in Brennan that we all are to afraid to acknowledge. He does bring something to the squad and shoot me for saying it, but look how that has helped Dalass. Look at San Diego. Look at AZ. You want a guy that leads the team, bottom line. A guy who can dust it off, make the big throw, but have the guts and charisma to rally the troops when he's been sh*t.

[mi6]

The keep thing to note is that JC is a pretender! He is not what we all make him out to be. He is not an elite QB, nor will he ever be .. Just too many flaws.

[Chachie]

Mechanics? Like I CARE about Jason Campbell's car! Sheesh...:mad:

[skinfan2k]

I don't think JC has grasped any system yet. At least not enough to make it work. And can you tell me what the difference was between Gibbs system and Saunders? Because I never saw JC attempt Saunders system. Unless it was CP off tackle even more. Yeah, I HEARD about the 700 page playbook. JC used a couple dozen pages at most. The Cliffs notes version, and didn't do much with that.

Yes, there was a dramatic difference between his first season and his first starting season. You just proved my point. How can i get comfortable in a system with so much change and not have any reliable playmakers?

[Redskin4ever]

This is why I hope Zorn can last a few years. I have a feeling that if things aren't going well, there will be a quick trigger. And if it were up to a lot of people on this board, he will be gone soon. But if Zorn can work with him for a few years, I think Campbell can be as good if not better than Hasselbeck. But it will take time. I just hope the Dan Snyder as well as the fans will give it that time.

[rdskn4eva]

This is why I hope Zorn can last a few years. I have a feeling that if things aren't going well, there will be a quick trigger. And if it were up to a lot of people on this board, he will be gone soon. But if Zorn can work with him for a few years, I think Campbell can be as good if not better than Hasselbeck. But it will take time. I just hope the Dan Snyder as well as the fans will give it that time.

Amen brother, Amen!!! :notworthy

[corrupt3d]

Amen brother, Amen!!! :notworthy

For a second, I thought you quoted your own post, but I agree with what you quoted.

After the WSJ interview, I really think Snyder has changed...how much? We'll see.

[TheItalianStallion]

This is why I hope Zorn can last a few years. I have a feeling that if things aren't going well, there will be a quick trigger. And if it were up to a lot of people on this board, he will be gone soon. But if Zorn can work with him for a few years, I think Campbell can be as good if not better than Hasselbeck. But it will take time. I just hope the Dan Snyder as well as the fans will give it that time.

Not that I disagree, but I think JC has to show some substantial improvement by the end of this year. He doesn't necessarily have to reach his full potential, but he needs to improve.

[Oldfan]

The keep thing to note is that JC is a pretender! He is not what we all make him out to be. He is not an elite QB, nor will he ever be .. Just too many flaws.

I don't know what you mean by elite. He might never be top five, but he might be good enough to win a Super Bowl.

75% of the QB grade has to do with passing accuracy; and accuracy relates to mechanics. Jim Zorn was brought here to work with Jason in the same way that pro golfers employ swing doctors to spot flaws in their swings.

To me, Campbell looks like a better QB. The lazy footwork and that little flip in his delivery are gone. When not pressured, he has looked good in preseason games.

[Oldfan]

...I think JC has to show some substantial improvement by the end of this year. He doesn't necessarily have to reach his full potential, but he needs to improve.

That's my opinion as well. It isn't just about the time it takes to become fully effective in a system. It's about ability. Jason needs to show Jim Zorn that he can play the position at a high level.

[Morneblade]

Rather ironic post. I remember you being very much against JC not to long ago.

[Oldfan]

Rather ironic post. I remember you being very much against JC not to long ago.

There's no irony at all. I downgraded Jason from a C to a D last year after Todd collins did so much better with the same supporting cast. I see much improved mechanics this year, so my hopes are raised.

That's all there is to it.

[jtyler42]

Ummm, in Matt Hasselbeck's second year starting (fourth year in the league, which is where Campbell is at now), he posted a QB rating of 87.8.

Donovan McNabb made the Pro Bowl in his second year, and in his third year, his QB rating was 84.3.

In Brett Favre's first year starting (second year in the league), he posted a QB rating of 85.3 and made the Pro Bowl.

I think it's too late to try to draw any similarities between Jason Campbell and those three quarterbacks.

right and we havent seen JC's second yr starting either in his first yr he had a 77 rating...Besides QB rating can be misleading, what were the comp %'s, TD to INT ratio, and yds...So how is it too late? All three of those QB's early in their starting careers heard the same things JC is about their decision making...Hasselback and Favre drove Holmgren crazy their first few yrs...

[SkinsFanAnt]

Campbell will progress further under Zorn then he would have with Gibbs/Saunders. He just needs time to work out the subtleties. It may take more than a season but when he gets it...the dude's going to resemble John Elway...might not be as good...but he's got the tools to at least resemble him.

[SkinsFanAnt]

The keep thing to note is that JC is a pretender! He is not what we all make him out to be. He is not an elite QB, nor will he ever be .. Just too many flaws.

Dude...go home. If he's a pretender...that's why he's starting on the Skins and NOT Collins? :doh: Seriously, the guy has played the equivalent of 1 full season yet you impatient guys are willing to get rid of him the second he throws an INT. Guess what?...ANY QB we get will throw INTs...it's part of the game.

And lets see...Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Eli Manning, Jake Delhomme, Hasselback...EVEN REX GROSSMAN ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!...all these guys made it to the Superbowl since 2000. You know who hasn't made it?....TONY Romo sits to pee who is apparently considered an 'Elite' QB which is ridiculous.

[guinnesscrazy]

Because I never saw JC attempt Saunders system.

I think what you meant to say was, "I never saw Saunders allow JC to run the offense the way it should be run." It was fairly obvious that Saunders didn't have confidence in JC to let him use the entire playbook.

Does that mean JC wasn't capable or that Saunders simply didn't think he could do it? Who knows.

What we do know is that when Collins came in, not only did we start returning many key members of the Offense back from injury, but it was quite apparent that Saunders let Collins run many plays that JC was never allowed to call.

I'm not saying I think JC is a top 5 QB or that he couldn't get it done with Saunders merely because Saunders wouldn't let him, but the problem is, we don't know. I only know what I saw, and that was that Collins was running plays that I had never seen JC call before. And I happen to believe it was because Saunders had faith in his 10-year backup, knowing that all Collins had done for many years was look through those 700 pages. I also highly doubt that the reason JC didn't use the full playbook is because he didn't want to, or felt uncomfortable with it. If you're gonna place blame over using a cliffs notes version of Al's playbook, place it on Al himself. We all know he was not sold on JC, from day 1.

[testrake]

Hey Oldfan, your post is far to well thought out and reasonable for a QB thread on ES, you will find yourself banned from the board and flogged with a wet noodle for this before all is done and said!!!

[Morneblade]

There's no irony at all. I downgraded Jason from a C to a D last year after Todd collins did so much better with the same supporting cast. I see much improved mechanics this year, so my hopes are raised.

That's all there is to it.

Well, not exactly. Campbell didnt have Moss for healthy for a good bit of the mid part of the season and then ARE went down as well. The end of the season was about the only time both were healthy at the same time. That and it was fairly obvious that when Collins went in, the entire playbook was being used and had been scaled back tremendously for Campbell for whatever reason.

As for mechanics, from what I understand there have been 2 changes that Zorn made this year. Standing lower in the pocket and having Campbells steps be all the same length in his drops, where with Saunders it was 3 long and 2 short steps for a 5 step drop. Most of the throwing motion stuff was done last year however.

[Old Diver]

Oldfan, can you name a 26 year old quarterback whose mechanics have been altered to the point where they became great? Just asking cause I don't believe there will be a whole lot of people on that list.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, can you name a 26 year old quarterback whose mechanics have been altered to the point where they became great? Just asking cause I don't believe there will be a whole lot of people on that list.

Hasslebeck isn't "great" but, when I think of starting QBs whose mechanics have been reworked, his name is the only one that springs to mind.

I think , for the most part, QB coaches are reluctant to do anything but minor tweaks.

[DieselPwr44]

The mere fact that Gibbs gave up three picks for Jason in the draft tells us that Joe belongs to the coaching school which doesn't put much emphasis on mechanics. Many coaches think it's not that

That's what I could not understand about Gibbs II.

In Gibbs I, he had one of the top,if not the top, QB coach in the league in Jerry Rhome.

In his second tenure here,he went bargain basement in Musgrave and Lazor.

Go figure.... :whoknows:

[Geneva]

You may have hit the nail on the head with this post...I think the Skins need to find that old will to win or 110% effort by each player on every play. Sean Taylor had this. He went all out on each and every play. LaRon Landry is the only other player on the team at this time who gives this 110% effort. This game is football (war/battles) hit the other guy and drive him into the dirt. I just don't see this in the Redskin team. I get sick looking at the way our O & D lines have played. They got their clocks cleaned. Zorn needs to build a fire under this team prior to the Giants game or it's going to be a long season....

[paloosa]

The only thing Zorn really has changed in his mechanics is that he made him bend his kness more and to release the ball quicker other than that everything is the same.

[Oldfan]

The only thing Zorn really has changed in his mechanics is that he made him bend his kness more and to release the ball quicker other than that everything is the same.

I see a lot more.

Al Saunders worked with Jason before last season. He made him a lot quicker in setting up. Jim Zorn finished the job. Everything, from taking the ball from the center to the setup is quicker. Even his head fakes are quicker when "looking off" a safety..

That unnecessary flip of the ball in his delivery is gone speeding up the release.

I'm not positive of this, but I think Jason's forearm now is coming through near vertical now on most throws. In the past, it was outside the shoulder.

Jason had a nasty habit of not moving his feet (lazy footwork) when he came off a downfield route to use an outlet receiver. He made those throws solely by adjusting his arm angle. The result was that his passes spiraled tail down. The accuracy was poor and they were tough passes to catch. Sellars dropped two of them last year. I didn't see any of those in the preseason.