Trendsetting - 2 star TE's

[SnyderMustGo]

And an offense proficient in the Red Zone can play ball control to sit on leads anywhere on the field.

Yeah, that is Redskins football. But keep up: we just ditched Redskins football. We are now a WCO team that is going to be aggressive! Or something.

[Wrenkels]

I thought this was the very reason we drafted Davis, Kelly, and Thomas. To help out in the redzone. But a 2 WR and 2 TE and one running back is nothing new. And please, please be more aggressive this season. Do something in stead of play to try and not lose the game.

[DiscoBob]

If we use Davis and Cooley at the same time, it will probably not be in goaline situations (unless on is out like a WR). The logical place to use both players is in 3 wide with no RB or 2 wide with a RB.

It will be about matchups. You would hope that Cooley or Davis would be a mismatch on a Line Backer or on a small Corner. Since Cooley has played H-Back in the past, we could easily have him line up in the backfield to fill the RB pass blocking roll. If we did so, he would be a great option if and when he is able to release....

[chaught76]

Maybe I am off my rocker here, but a lot of this thread doesn't make sense to me.

First, Cooley's run blocking has improved every year. Is he the best run blocking TE, probably not. Is he solid? Definitely. As far as Davis, it remains to be seen what he will do. As far as I am concerned, he is an insurance policy if Cooley gets injured and spot player in certain packages for a couple of years.

Next, why would we use Cooley and Davis in goal-line situations? This package makes no sense to me. It screams to the defense that we are either going to run between the tackles or use a play-action pass.

Finally, as I already mentioned, I don't see Davis being used a lot this year. Zorn already said we want to the run the ball. If they are going to use a 2 TE set, Cooley and Yoder are the choices until or unless Davis evolves his game exponentially. Furthermore, we drafted 2 talented young WRs, Moss is getting moved to the position he should have been playing all along, and Randle El has shown he can be productive. Why in the world would be using a lot 2 TE sets (especially ones which use Cooley and Davis), when we can spread the field with Moss, Thomas, Kelly, Cooley, and Randle El?

I understand the benefit of having a balanced look on offense, but I just can't believe we are going to use a lot of 2 TE sets with the weapons we have on offense now. Just my :2cents:.

Peace. HTTR!!!

[CBass1724]

Next, why would we use Cooley and Davis in goal-line situations? This package makes no sense to me. It screams to the defense that we are either going to run between the tackles or use a play-action pass.

Why in the world would be using a lot 2 TE sets (especially ones which use Cooley and Davis), when we can spread the field with Moss, Thomas, Kelly, Cooley, and Randle El?

I understand the benefit of having a balanced look on offense, but I just can't believe we are going to use a lot of 2 TE sets with the weapons we have on offense now. Just my :2cents:.

Peace. HTTR!!!

All of this is precisely the point. If you have both Davis and Cooley in there, they are still TE's first and foremost...but you don't know if they are going out for a pass or staying into block so you have to respect the run first. There is just so much you can do out of a double TE set with both of them being receiving threats. Or you can split out either of them wide so it looks like a 3 WR set, but obviously are a bigger target near the end zone. Goal-line situations are perfect for 2 TE's. If you have Yoder in there as a 2nd TE, he is more than likely blocking (even though he turned into a nice weapon last year). We don't have TY on the team for his receiving and RAC ability.

I don't think any of us are trying to say that we will use 2 TE's all the time. But the fact remains that when we do, it is impossible to know what is coming because we could legitimately run or pass out of this formation. I know it's premature to call Davis a "star" but if he is as good at running and catching as his hype is, then I think we can be giddy about him.

I agree we have plenty of other weapons, but this set should be considered a weapon too!

MAN I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE SEASON TO START!!!! It just feels like we are close to something special.

[PlayAction]

Finally, as I already mentioned, I don't see Davis being used a lot this year. Zorn already said we want to the run the ball. If they are going to use a 2 TE set, Cooley and Yoder are the choices until or unless Davis evolves his game exponentially. Furthermore, we drafted 2 talented young WRs, Moss is getting moved to the position he should have been playing all along, and Randle El has shown he can be productive. Why in the world would be using a lot 2 TE sets (especially ones which use Cooley and Davis), when we can spread the field with Moss, Thomas, Kelly, Cooley, and Randle El?

I understand the benefit of having a balanced look on offense, but I just can't believe we are going to use a lot of 2 TE sets with the weapons we have on offense now. Just my :2cents:.

Peace. HTTR!!!

Too many weapons on offense. It's a dilemma, but a good dilemma as opposed to the state of the offense over the past four years. Supposedly Davis is very good at the deeper routes. So I could see him being used a bit during the year. While Cooley is now a pro-bowler I think Zorn is still trying to figure out how best to use his skills (based upon various interview comments of Zorn's). I can see some advantages to a 2 TE set but it would dramatically limit the opportunities for your other playmakers. A two TE set would limit the Skins to one RB and 2 WRs. Zorn will put in some 3 and 4 WR sets as well. He also said he wanted to use a RB and FB or both Portis and Betts in the backfield.

Personally, I'd like for some of the unsung Redskins get an opportunity to produce in this WCO. I think Thrash will surprise if given the chance and Betts is very productive out of the backfield and in the zone blocking running schemes.

[Emoshag]

Too many weapons on offense. It's a dilemma, but a good dilemma as opposed to the state of the offense over the past four years. Supposedly Davis is very good at the deeper routes. So I could see him being used a bit during the year. While Cooley is now a pro-bowler I think Zorn is still trying to figure out how best to use his skills (based upon various interview comments of Zorn's). I can see some advantages to a 2 TE set but it would dramatically limit the opportunities for your other playmakers. A two TE set would limit the Skins to one RB and 2 WRs. Zorn will put in some 3 and 4 WR sets as well. He also said he wanted to use a RB and FB or both Portis and Betts in the backfield.

Personally, I'd like for some of the unsung Redskins get an opportunity to produce in this WCO. I think Thrash will surprise if given the chance and Betts is very productive out of the backfield and in the zone blocking running schemes.

Honestly, I am really hoping to see some 5 wide with Davis and Cooley being the bookends, Randle El in the slot and Moss and Thomas flexed wide. With a package like that, with our personnel, you would see the most diverse amount of routes any position could run. Hell, Cooley and Davis could be rinning the 9s and Thomas running the slant.

[[[ghost]]]

It'll only help if the TEs can embarrass LBers. We know Cooley can do that constantly, which is why it's so important for Davis to get involved early, so as to take advantage of the lack of a quality defender sticking him. In addition, you'll need WRs like Moss to get open up top, to at least get the Safeties attention.

[Oldfan]

Yeah, that is Redskins football. But keep up: we just ditched Redskins football. We are now a WCO team that is going to be aggressive! Or something.

If being proficient in the Red Zone is Redskins Football, why did we dump it? That's what all teams want to do. And all teams want to milk the clock with a fair-size lead. It's smart football if you have the weapons to do it.

[darrelgreenie]

Since Cooley has played H-Back in the past, we could easily have him line up in the backfield ....

That's a great point, Cooley has been an H-Back in the past. Therefore they could get Cooley and Davis on the field togother in any formation that has a fullback/H-back and a TE which includes the I-Form, Pro-Set, Offset, Far, Near, and of course they could be on the field together in all the 2 TE formations...

(I'm speculating here but if Cooley comes in at H-Back the coverage will probably repect Cooley more then whoever lines up at TE be it Yoder/Davis making it easier for the TE to get open)

I can't wait for training camp to see what the offense will actually look like

HTTR

[Emoshag]

If being proficient in the Red Zone is Redskins Football, why did we dump it? That's what all teams want to do. And all teams want to milk the clock with a fair-size lead. It's smart football if you have the weapons to do it.

After the Patriots openly admitted to going against the unwritten rule of running up the score and the emphasis the league has put on higher scoring games (except for the change to the force out rule)... the milk the clock approach to winning games is not widespread anymore. I am willing to bet that with the questionable way he got the coaching gig, the offensive draft emphasis and the switch to a faster, more rhythmic WCO.... if Zorn has the chance to either milk the clock with a 7 point lead in the second half or try to bury the opponent, he will go with bury. He knows as well as anyone that there is no small cushion of safety in football.

Besides.... name me a former offensive minded coach, especially a former quarterback, who has the chance to scathe the opponent defense with smart playcalling and overpowering execution that wouldnt salivate at the opportunity....

[ChillSkinzFan84]

I believe teams will copy us if it works. Face it the Redskins are trendsetters believe or not. Joe Gibbs brought the H-back back into today's game...now other teams do it. In 2004 Joe Gibbs talked about getting high character players and then all of a sudden all draft scouts and teams were talking about getting high character players. When we wore the all white uniforms other teams started to wear them as alternates. Even from the business standpoint...Snyder started paying these guys lots of money and was criticized for it but once teams figured out its all about "cash over cap" teams area throwing around much more money than before. The Redskins are trendsetters and once the 2 TE works teams will copy. And it will work Davis is a athletic beast and we all know how good Cooley is.

[Oldfan]

Emoshag: After the Patriots openly admitted to going against the unwritten rule of running up the score and the emphasis the league has put on higher scoring games (except for the change to the force out rule)... the milk the clock approach to winning games is not widespread anymore.

I think you're mistaken. My sense is that teams generally pass to get the lead and run to keep it. Even Belichick does it.

I kept an eye on the game charts of the Pats last year to get a feel for their use of the shotgun. Using the second Buffalo game as example, Brady was passing from the gun, building a 21 point lead, for all but a few plays in the first three quarters. He was under center, handing off the football, for the entire fourth quarter.

I am willing to bet that with the questionable way he got the coaching gig, the offensive draft emphasis and the switch to a faster, more rhythmic WCO.... if Zorn has the chance to either milk the clock with a 7 point lead in the second half or try to bury the opponent, he will go with bury. He knows as well as anyone that there is no small cushion of safety in football.

It wouldn't be smart to try to sit on a 7 point lead. How about 14? After all, the WCO is designed for ball control with short, quick passes. It's not a wide-open attack.

Besides.... name me a former offensive minded coach, especially a former quarterback, who has the chance to scathe the opponent defense with smart playcalling and overpowering execution that wouldnt salivate at the opportunity....

The only coach/former QB that I can think of who would try to run up the score is Spurrier.

[Fight for ole DC]

It gives us better passing options in the Red Zone especially with the two new tall WRs we have.

[ST is my boy]

I think if Davis becomes a star (Cooley already is one) it will ultimitley lead to one of them getting traded, or just let go to free agency. Unfortunatly thats just how this league works....rarely do teams have 2 "Stars" at the same position....it typically leads to trouble.

Which is why I think taking Fred was so silly. I like taking the recievers....we needed them, but we didnt have to take a tight end also. That was SO stupid, and I dont care what anyone says....it just was. If he felt we needed another tightend then get one a little later.....not in the second round when you already have a top 5 tightend in the NFL. We could have gotten a Dlineman, a corner, or a saftey there.....I just dont understand it, and I never will.

This doesnt mean by any means I dont want him to succeed, I actually think hes going to be good......I just truely believe if he does become really good.....then one or the other will HAVE to go......its just how it always works..

[Emoshag]

I think you're mistaken. My sense is that teams generally pass to get the lead and run to keep it. Even Belichick does it.

I kept an eye on the game charts of the Pats last year to get a feel for their use of the shotgun. Using the second Buffalo game as example, Brady was passing from the gun, building a 21 point lead, for all but a few plays in the first three quarters. He was under center, handing off the football, for the entire fourth quarter.

Wrong.

Week 3 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Moss for a 45 yard TD when they were ahead 31 to 7.

Week 4 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Moss for a 14 yard TD when they were ahead 27 to 13.

Week 5 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Watson for a 25 yard TD when they were ahead 20 to 10.

Week 6 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Stallworth for a 69 yard TD when they were ahead 41 to 27.

Week 7 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Welker for a 69 yard TD when they were ahead 42 to 21.

Week 7 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Welker for a 2 yard TD when they were ahead 38 to 0.

And thats just the scoring they did late in the 4th quarter with a significant lead. Never mind the scoring they did in the 3rd when they had the lead by more than 21-24 points. And if you don't believe the numbers.... Here is a quote from Brady: "We're trying to play extremely well. We're not trying to win 42-28. We're trying to win--we're trying to kill teams, to blow them out if we can."

And an article on it from ESPN

And another from Bleacher Report

And just keep connecting the dots. Remember all the go for it on 4th and 4 while in 30-35 yard field goal range? C'mon.... And the only reason is that Gibbs 2.0 was comfortable sitting on a 7 point lead. First era Gibbs was actually criticized for running up the score. Remember, the Redskins held the Single Season Record for Points scored from 1983 to 1998 with 541 points (Minnesota broke it with 556). So the idea of sitting on a curb-high lead wasn't Joe Gibbs.... it was J-old Gibbs.

I wasn't a fan of running up the score until the Pats did it to us. Now.... if you have a long lead on the rope..... take it and strangle the everloving **** out of the opponent.

[JetSkins]

fred davis a star TE?

[Meatsnack]

A gifted pass receiving TE is valuable becaise of the 5-yard bump rule. Most 'backers can't cover a guy like Gonzo/Gates or Cooley or Shockey for that matter without a little grab or hold. If a team has a backer who is gifted in coverage, he will usually cover the TE. In a two TE set, you are stuck with dropping a safety down to cover the 2nd TE or creating a mismatch with a backer who can't cover as well. In one scenario you get single coverage outside on a WR and in the other you get a match-up your TE should win 8 times out of 10. Plus, the odds of drawing a flag go way up because LBs don't hide their extracurriculars as well as DBs. So, the two TE set is not a revolution but it can be darned effective, especially against the 3-4 where the OLBs typically don't cover as well and the ILBs are not in a good position to do so.

[Oldfan]

Emoshag

When I wrote that, "My sense is that teams generally pass to get the lead and run to keep it. Even Belichick does it." I meant that even Belichick, who has a reputation for running up scores, will do it at times.

And when I said that teams will generally run to keep that lead, I meant that they will play ball control and try to milk the clock. I didn't mean that they would shut down the offense and refuse to score in the fourth quarter. For example, I wouldn't expect any coach to take his foot off the accelerator in the following situations:

Week 5 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Watson for a 25 yard TD when they were ahead 20 to 10.

Week 7 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Welker for a 2 yard TD when they were ahead 38 to 0.

Week 4 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Moss for a 14 yard TD when they were ahead 27 to 13.

And, if the following were deep passes, that certainly isn't ball control. But, it was a five yard pass and a 64 yard run after the catch, those things can happen even when the coach is playing stall ball.

Week 3 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Moss for a 45 yard TD when they were ahead 31 to 7.

Week 6 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Stallworth for a 69 yard TD when they were ahead 41 to 27.

Week 7 : 4th Quarter - Brady to Welker for a 69 yard TD when they were ahead 42 to 21.

I wasn't a fan of running up the score until the Pats did it to us. Now.... if you have a long lead on the rope..... take it and strangle the everloving **** out of the opponent.

With a 14 point lead in the fourth quarter, the smart thing to do is to play ball control and use up the clock. It's about strategy, not about being a good sport.

[RedskinzOwnU]

It's always nice to have good players at every position... I don't think this is revolutionary. It's kind of like having 3 sick wide receivers. Go pats?

[drowland]

I believe teams will copy us if it works. Face it the Redskins are trendsetters believe or not. Joe Gibbs brought the H-back back into today's game...now other teams do it. In 2004 Joe Gibbs talked about getting high character players and then all of a sudden all draft scouts and teams were talking about getting high character players. When we wore the all white uniforms other teams started to wear them as alternates. Even from the business standpoint...Snyder started paying these guys lots of money and was criticized for it but once teams figured out its all about "cash over cap" teams area throwing around much more money than before. The Redskins are trendsetters and once the 2 TE works teams will copy. And it will work Davis is a athletic beast and we all know how good Cooley is.

This post is one big over-statement. Nothing you listed was a recent trend started by the Skins. The Colts have been using the H-back for the last 10 yrs. All white uniforms are nothing new. A lot of teams have put emphasis on high character over the years. The Vikings have actually been the leaders in cap manipulation. A lot of teams have copied what they've done in terms of writing player contracts with likely unattainable performance bonuses which gives them cap credit in future years.

[Darth Tater]

I think if Davis becomes a star (Cooley already is one) it will ultimitley lead to one of them getting traded, or just let go to free agency. Unfortunatly thats just how this league works....rarely do teams have 2 "Stars" at the same position....it typically leads to trouble.

Which is why I think taking Fred was so silly. I like taking the recievers....we needed them, but we didnt have to take a tight end also. That was SO stupid, and I dont care what anyone says....it just was. If he felt we needed another tightend then get one a little later.....not in the second round when you already have a top 5 tightend in the NFL. We could have gotten a Dlineman, a corner, or a saftey there.....I just dont understand it, and I never will.

This doesnt mean by any means I dont want him to succeed, I actually think hes going to be good......I just truely believe if he does become really good.....then one or the other will HAVE to go......its just how it always works..

Building to your strength this way has a long, proud history, ask Bethard, a king when it comes to the layering like of which you speak. You never can really predict who'll be a bust (for whatever reason be it injury or below par performance). Even the best have less than a 50/50 chance picking quality in the first 2-3 rounds! If you got a star, you find another so that you can let the star go if he becomes too big for his britches, trade your spare to strengthen a weakness without creating a weakness or not be caught with your pants down if your star falls off the table (something that happens with great regularity). The new guy turns out to be a bust, no big deal, just try again later.