WP/WISE: The Coldest Shoulder

[Oldfan]

See my post below yours (and above this one) for my reasoning as to where this came from.

If I'm right and that it did in fact come from someone high up in the team (who remains with the organization of course), how can you not care about something as sleazy as a smear campaign against a four-year coach who the team doesn't want to hire in the face of fan and player popularity, in order to justify not hiring him?

Your speculation, relying very much on the integrity and accuracy of the media in reporting on the coaching search, isn't persuasive, especially since we are discussing an article about Dan Snyder which, in my mind, demonstrates the author's bias.

If Gregg Williams was satisfied -- and he said he was -- I'm satisfied too that there was nothing to the alleged smear.

[redman]

Your speculation, relying very much on the integrity and accuracy of the media in reporting on the coaching search, isn't persuasive, especially since we are discussing an article about Dan Snyder which, in my mind, demonstrates the author's bias.

If Gregg Williams was satisfied -- and he said he was -- I'm satisfied too that there was nothing to the alleged smear.

So you're going with the old reliable "three media outlets lied about my Redskins"? :laugh: Sorry, but that's ridiculous to me.

Unlike you, I believe that reporters try to get stories right, especially in news reports (as opposed to commentary). They didn't make up this story out of whole cloth.

As for Gregg Williams' "satisfaction", you're underestimating his desire not to have such incidents follow him like a cloud as he searches for new employment. He loses nothing by being classy here, even if it's not deserved by the team, given that he's the victim. Likewise, he gains nothing by being vengeful or accusatory.

The most important thing is that both GW denied the story (about him insulting/disrespecting Gibbs), and his agent came out and did call it a smear campaign. Williams deciding to "move on" means less to me than those two things for the reasons I stated above.

[nneece]

This keeps getting lost when I try to say it, but I'll try again ... what we're left with out here in fanland is having to decide, based on wildly incomplete information, whether or not Snyder, in the interest of the highly subjective term "continuity, " should have given the job to GW despite the fact he clearly did not feel GW was the best man for the job.

My take on that is no, absolutely not. You can't hire a guy to be the face of your franchise if you don't believe in him. It would be suicide.

Please understand that does NOT mean I necessarily think he made the RIGHT decision on whether GW was the best man for the job. What it means it that, given he DID make that decision, he would have been making an even bigger mistake by hiring him anyway.

Maybe that point seems irrelevant to some. It certainly hasn't gotten much play around here. To me though, it's the central point in all of this.

And yet, if Williams where such a problem you didn't deal with it in the last 4 years? He disrespected Gibbs but they worked together for 4 years? It doesn't make sense.

I'll be the first to say that Williams has a big ego and made some pig headed decisions because of said ego. I think the Arrington, Clark, and Pierce moves were part of that. But I also think that Williams had learned from some of his mistakes as reflected by the performance the D put in this season. He is ready to take the next step.

[The Full Monty]

Best of look to you, GW.

[we miss you scoop]

lol..laughable..lol...yes,,,ppl...plz put #21's death to rest.

Ridiculous to tie Sean's passing in with giving GW the job. Let Sean rest in peace. Yes, the team rallied around that last year, but you have to let him rest in peace and not make every decision revolve around the impact of his passing.

[PCS]

with all due respect....the "you don't know what they are thinking cuz you don't have a seat at the table" response not only gets tiring/repetitive...year after year...but gives one pause to worry about how you get through life when addressing problems being discussed at all the other tables you don't have your knees under. you really don't have opinions...say...on Rumsfeld or the latest Fed moves? How can you have an opinion on Scooter Libby if you "weren't there"? You have no position on Gates and the empire he built or the products he sells?

I remember the same logic being applied when many of us complained about the lack of real time practice with the new offense two off-seasons ago. STFU many were basically told..."there's a plan"..."you don't know what the coaches are thinking"...."They don't want to tip their hands". All the while common sense and an open mind suggested otherwise. you my not always be wrong with the "you don't know the details" nostrum. but you are not always right either.

seems to me you are setting up a strawman yourself.

It's getting old because it makes too much sense doesn't Al? That's one way of going through life right there. Instead of jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, (which are based more on what you don't know instead of what you do know), one steps back and waits for more information. Waits so that one can get a clearer picture of what may or may not be going on so that a more informed opinion can be made. An opinion can be formed now, but at least that kind of thinking can allow for some flexibility. Meaning that the opinion can change with more knowledge. That is what is known as keeping an open mind. . I'm not saying not to have opinions. Like the old saying says, well, you know.

[skinsn24]

I guess I have to be included in your category of those "asserting that GW should not have been made the head coach." Though I'll repeat yet again that my reason for saying that is NOT that i personally don't think he was the right choice, but that since SNYDER did not, he made the only choice he could.

As to whether it was handled poorly, yeah, based on what I know, which ain't much, it seems pretty tacky.

OK see here is the large problem. You are saying because synder is running the show, he made the only choice he could.

That is totally false. He made the choice he wanted to, but he had many other options.

He could have hired a real football person to hire a coach. That seems to work pretty well....but thats a different issue i guess.

We keep hearing that because Synder is the man and he holds all the information that we dont get, he is in a better place to make a correct decision. This is not true.

Here is a simple scenerio. There is a french student and an english student. They are both going to be asked to answer 1 question about a book. The french student gets the real book, but it is in english. The english student only gets the cliff notes.

Which one is in a better position to answer the question? The frenchman with all the information but no way to use or process it? Or an English student with a cliffnote version?

The point is that while someone may have all the information at hand, they can be totally incapable of using the information. This is true of synder its called track record.

[skinsn24]

See my post below yours (and above this one) for my reasoning as to where this came from.

If I'm right and that it did in fact come from someone high up in the team (who remains with the organization of course), how can you not care about something as sleazy as a smear campaign against a four-year coach who the team doesn't want to hire in the face of fan and player popularity, in order to justify not hiring him?

The smear is a very interesting part of all this. Here is what we know

1. Fans love Joe Gibbs he is a god to redskins fans.

2. Fans wanted GW as coach badly

3. Players wanted GW as coach, badly

4. Fans Hated the idea of Fassel b/c GW was out there.

5. Fans pay the bills.

Now it would seem the only way to get the fans and players to back off of their support of GW would be to use someone who they like even more to defame him.

Hence, why the rumor had to invovle Joe Gibbs. There was no one else that could bring down support for GW.

Now as to whether it was real or not. This is pretty obvious and is EXACTLY like a politcal campaign. Someone close to the top sees the obvious problem of the GW support, they know that they cant offically blast him, so they tell some low level person to leak some fake story to piss the fans off at GW.

Then when they meet face to face both parties act like it is gravy and a false rumor.

This is how it works in politics too. Exactly the same. Camp A will leak X about candidate B, but then at a debate they will shake hands and smile together, while denying the smear rumors.

I am not saying the smear was true, but to dissmiss it, thats plain stupid. You would think Danny boy would be looking to sue (or bring a lawsuit even though there is no chance of sucess) the people creating these reports out of air, because they made him look like a dick.

[skinsn24]

Id like to add one more thing to this thread since we are hearing "you not there, your not involved, so you dont know" argument again.

A year ago or whatnot many on here said we need to have a good defensive line to have a good defense.

The people said "no, you dont know, your not GW, you dont know what is right or wrong, he does."

Now we have people supporting GW (even those that said he was building the D backwards, but he did upgrade his DL play).

However those people that were using the "you dont know argument" in support of GW are now using it in support of synder.

SO who does know what makes this team work, Synder or GW? It just doesnt feem fair to one day say "trust GW, he knows whats goin on." and then the next say "ah Eff GW, he doesnt know whats right, Synder does, trust Synder."

Id say GW knows a hell of alot more about the defense and players than Synder, maybe because you know he is actually a football guy, but thats me.

[Jumbo]

Since Danny bought out the place the homer-isms have gone through the roof, is all I meant.

EDIT:

Okay, maybe my message was a little harsh and too personal. I apologize for that, I've had trouble managing my feelings regarding the recent firings of our coordinators.

Of course, its not valid excuse, I just ... have trouble with this team lately. I need to probably give myself a temporary Redskins-break.

Fair enough, amigo. Hang in there.

[Jumbo]

The mod's are defacto employees of the Redskins, ergo they act accordingly. And that's cool with me, somebody's gotta pay the bandwidth bills, but their track record is one of boosterism.

This is every bit as intelligent and clue-laden as the guy who posts that criticizing the FO will get you banned.

[Om]

redman,

Much as I know this mystifies and angers some people, until and unless I have enough information to make what I consider an informed judgment about something specific--in this case this whole "smear campaign" controversy--I generally try to avoid filling in the blanks for myself and then making public pronouncements about it.

I suppose it's my Agnosticism applied to an everyday situation.

I do love that others are not so bound by their beliefs, however, and that they DO feel the need to fill in the blanks for themselves and then defend their conclusions passionately (and endlessly) on the internet. If they didn't, I'd not have this lovely gig where I get to moderate them in their finest hours.

All of which means, I have absolutely no ****ing idea about the reality of Smear Gate, and I'm not going to waste a whole lot of my time trying to figure it out based on nothing more than endless internet conjecture. Sorry.

[Jbank31]

We all agree the process has been handled badly. In my opinion coach Gibbs tried to do a few things while here, and one of the most important was to get the fans back supporting the team through thick or thin. In every presser he would mention how the Redskins fans were the greatest in the world. Now I believe that he believes this is true but I also thing it was done to improve the image of the front office and ownership. Herein lies my problem with this head coach situation. Mr. Snyder has effectively undone all of the good pr work that coach Gibbs accomplished over the past four years. He did this in an amazing three weeks. Hiring coach Williams as the head coach was a no brainer. The fans wanted him, the players lobbied for him and even if he didn't win it bought the organization two or three years of stability and good pr. At that point noone would have blinked if the coach was replaced. Just an opinion, but getting your players to run through walls for you separates the great coaches from the decent ones.

[nneece]

The smear is a very interesting part of all this. Here is what we know

1. Fans love Joe Gibbs he is a god to redskins fans.

2. Fans wanted GW as coach badly

3. Players wanted GW as coach, badly

4. Fans Hated the idea of Fassel b/c GW was out there.

5. Fans pay the bills.

Now it would seem the only way to get the fans and players to back off of their support of GW would be to use someone who they like even more to defame him.

Hence, why the rumor had to invovle Joe Gibbs. There was no one else that could bring down support for GW.

Now as to whether it was real or not. This is pretty obvious and is EXACTLY like a politcal campaign. Someone close to the top sees the obvious problem of the GW support, they know that they cant offically blast him, so they tell some low level person to leak some fake story to piss the fans off at GW.

Then when they meet face to face both parties act like it is gravy and a false rumor.

This is how it works in politics too. Exactly the same. Camp A will leak X about candidate B, but then at a debate they will shake hands and smile together, while denying the smear rumors.

I am not saying the smear was true, but to dissmiss it, thats plain stupid. You would think Danny boy would be looking to sue (or bring a lawsuit even though there is no chance of sucess) the people creating these reports out of air, because they made him look like a dick.

No, Fassel is a bad idea with or without Williams in the mix. Mora Jr. was a bad idea also. This FO seems to be full of bad ideas...

[TotalRecall]

That was one of the most stupid, worthless articles I have ever seen written about the Redskins!

[nneece]

That was one of the most stupid, worthless articles I have ever seen written about the Redskins!

Yeah, Wise is a jerk for having an opinion and writing about it. It appears to be the same opinion many fans have as well...

[BrodysDad]

So this is the thread where all the hOMers have been hiding...

[redman]

redman,

Much as I know this mystifies and angers some people, until and unless I have enough information to make what I consider an informed judgment about something specific--in this case this whole "smear campaign" controversy--I generally try to avoid filling in the blanks for myself and then making public pronouncements about it.

I suppose it's my Agnosticism applied to an everyday situation.

I do love that others are not so bound by their beliefs, however, and that they DO feel the need to fill in the blanks for themselves and then defend their conclusions passionately (and endlessly) on the internet. If they didn't, I'd not have this lovely gig where I get to moderate them in their finest hours.

All of which means, I have absolutely no ****ing idea about the reality of Smear Gate, and I'm not going to waste a whole lot of my time trying to figure it out based on nothing more than endless internet conjecture. Sorry.

That's why I have my handy Occam's Razor, to cut through the fog.

I would think after over seven years on these boards with you, you've realized that I'm not one to jump to too many baseless conclusions, much less am I one looking to bash either my team or its ownership.

All I can say here is that I've done the math, and the relatively few missing numbers aren't that hard to figure out. Cross-multiply man!

[DixieFlatline]

That's why I have my handy Occam's Razor, to cut through the fog.

I'm with you here. While I haven't been an ardent supporter of Snyder all these years, I've pretty much given him the benefit of the doubt and this organization in every situation. I'm more of a the glass is half-full type of guy and really want pretty obvious proof when things are murky, but I have some problems with the way Williams was handled in this process. And the more I think about the more I have to come to the conclusion that someone in that FO planted that story about him. It just makes the most sense.

[whlinder]

Don't worry Gregg Williams, people who Dan Snyder jettisons for no logical reason have been known to pretty darn successful in their future endeavors. Brad Johnson and has Super Bowl ring agree, as does Marty and his 14-2 season. I'm sure you'll do fine as a D coordinator, or even as a HC some time.

--

Hopefully the roster is blown up because this team is going down the tubes the way it is composed with an outside head coach. Might as well strip it down and build from scratch.

[TK]

That's why I have my handy Occam's Razor, to cut through the fog.

I would think after over seven years on these boards with you, you've realized that I'm not one to jump to too many baseless conclusions, much less am I one looking to bash either my team or its ownership.

All I can say here is that I've done the math, and the relatively few missing numbers aren't that hard to figure out. Cross-multiply man!

Can I have my calculator back now?

[zoony]

Redman, if it were the team's intention to smear GW, why would Snyder/Cerrato later retract the story? Seems like they went out of their way to do so.

Yet if they had just acted NOT to retract the story or to clear the air, the rumors would have continued to ride.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying.

[redman]

Redman, if it were the team's intention to smear GW, why would Snyder/Cerrato later retract the story? Seems like they went out of their way to do so.

Yet if they had just acted NOT to retract the story or to clear the air, the rumors would have continued to ride.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying.

What's so mysterious?

Is a team that fires and then un-fires its QB coach, Lazor, within the same day incapable of deciding to retract a rumor that it spread about one of its coaches?

Is it so implausible that a team that is obviously very much attuned to what the public thinks about its coaching search, so much so that it pulls back from Fassel after initially trying not only to hire him but also to construct a coaching staff around him, later discovered that its smear campaign against a popular assistant and head coaching candidate backfired?

There's nothing hard to understand here. Snyder, Cerrato, Swanson - somebody - planted this story with not one, not two, but three media outlets on the same day and then Snyder and Cerrato decided to backtrack from it and the backlash like the weasels they are when it proved to be obvious - and yes, it is obvious - that the story would necessarily have to be traced back to them.

I've had it with this ownership group. I'll always love my team, but I don't respect its owners. They're a bunch of sleazy profiteers who are too arrogant to learn from prior mistakes, and don't much care to when they're making money hand over fist. What I used to forgive as ignorance I now know to be something more malignant, and less fixable and forgivable.

What I now know is that if we win under them, it will be by accident, and that really bums me out.

[zoony]

I've had it with this ownership group. I'll always love my team, but I don't respect its owners. They're a bunch of sleazy profiteers who are too arrogant to learn from prior mistakes, and don't much care to when they're making money hand over fist. What I used to forgive as ignorance I now know to be something more malignant, and less fixable and forgivable.

What I now know is that if we win under them, it will be by accident, and that really bums me out.

Good points all around. It's a case, but I don't think you'd get a grand jury to bite. It's all circumstantial, though there is plenty of it.

That said, I share your opinion of ownership, but not for this reason. (I give it 50-50 odds it actually happened).

Dan Snyder is a terrible human being, and an embarassment to the fanbase. However Jack Kent Cooke was a notoriously evil human being, and we all know Marshall's issues with bigotry. The difference with JKC is that he won... and of course Marshall built the franchise.

I've kind of made my own piece that we will probably never have a lovable owner in Washington. It's too big a team, too powerful of a city for some hometown-folksy Rooney/Mara type. Therefore I've decided results are what matters most. Sadly, Snyder doesn't even have that going for him.

....

[stevenaa]

That's why I have my handy Occam's Razor, to cut through the fog.

I would think after over seven years on these boards with you, you've realized that I'm not one to jump to too many baseless conclusions, much less am I one looking to bash either my team or its ownership.

All I can say here is that I've done the math, and the relatively few missing numbers aren't that hard to figure out. Cross-multiply man!

Or maybe the simpler explanation is Williams really did disrespect Gibbs. It pissed off Synder and is a major factor in Williams not getting the job. It would explain why Williams was not communicated with for two weeks. Snyder leaks it to take some of the pressure off. Ultimately, Williams and his agent meet with Snyder and Cerrato to work out an amicable departure of which an agreement is reached. Snyder announces no such disrespect took place and Williams goes quietly into the night. Now, without the fog of Snyder hate, this explanation makes every bit as much sense as yours.

Realistically, we have no idea what happened. We never will. Thus forming iron clad opinions as to what happened is foolishnes. I'll just wait and see who is hired and what comes about before passing any judgement on the process to date.