We're not "close" to anything

[Neophyte]

The only problem listed by the OP that I agree with when talking about the season is #5 - Red Zone Offense. We settle for too many FGs and give up too many turnovers in the Red Zone. This team is 8-4 today if it scores 21 points a game. It has had it's chances to put that many points on the board every week this season and has not either because of a lack of execution or turnovers.

I attribute a lot of this to the offensive line issues. Too many defenses are getting to Campbell (not that he should be fumbling the ball, even then, but he should not be getting hit as much as he is either) and too many guys are going unblocked on running plays in the Red Zone.

This is simply not the line of Gibbs I and this is the one place where I think the changes in the personnel rules have hurt Gibbs the most. Gone are the days of stashing multiple talented young men on IR for years at a time while they develop into the dominating forces needed to impose your will on the defense in the Red Zone and in the 4th Qtr with a lead. We don't have a Raleigh McKenzie or an Ed Simmons just hanging around Redskins park these days waiting for a starter to go down like we did under Gibbs I.

[FanSinceWomb]

DjTj:

Good job on those points but the running one is....well....suspect.

I'm not an uber stat nerd but I do like what the site football-outsiders does in terms of reference, that is looking at every play and comparing like plays. We all know as football fans that on 3rd and 20 a draw play that yeilds 15 yards isn't a very productive play, yet on 3rd and 2 a 4 yard gain is very productive -- yet in the stats it's only 15 vs 4. Footballoutsiders scores each play in a season based on a point system and also compares like plays similar situations to find the average gain. In this system we're 18th and -10% defense-adjusted value over average. CP is 36th DVOA with -8.5%.

Again, I'm not a full on believer in this system but I do think it's illustrative of the problem that I feel like I see every week.

Our O-line actually scores fairly well in thier adjusted system, where losses are weighted 120%, 0-4 yard gains are 100%, 5-10 are 50% and 11+ are 0%, they also do very well in pass protection (the BIlls game is not in the system yet) but this could be based in part on JC.

[FanSinceWomb]

It's also worth noting that teams run at Andre Carter more than any other team in the league with 21% of a team's carries at him, the league average for the right end is 11%.

For all the talk of us running up the gut we run to the left end more than any other team, 23% of the time, and the only team that runs up the gut less than us (37%) is Green Bay. The league average for mid/gaurd runs is 50%.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

We're actually #9 in the NFL in rushing, and Portis is #6 in the NFL with 7 rushing touchdowns. Injuries may be an excuse, but the truth is that the running game has declined significantly since Todd Yoder became our lead blocker.

Injuries can also an excuse here, but if you believe JC is more than adequate, then this isn't really an area of concern. Our lack of a dominating receiver is not for lack of trying ... Rod Gardner and Michael Westbrook weren't Gibbs's fault.

We are #10 in rushing defense and #17 in pass defense. Unfortunately, there's a Sean Taylor-size hole there.

We actually started out the year with a very good red zone offense and have faded to 18th in the league. We definitely suck there, and I'm not even going to try to make excuses.

Andre Carter has 8 sacks, and Golston/Montgomery can hold down a spot next to Griffin as long as he can play. We need another end, and will need to replace Griffin soon. When we were playing with 11 men, Jackson only gained 60 yards on 15 carries. Smoot just had his best game of the season, we need Rogers to be healthy, and I think we'll re-sign Springs. We can't afford a big name there. He won't be a Pro Bowler again, but he has been solid when he has heen healthy. We do definitely need another safety. I wouldn't write off Jansen yet, and Heyer has shown at least something. It would be nice to have, but Moss and Randle El can be serviceable ... Yoder has 5 catches this year. :laugh: In any case, very few teams have two high-caliber TE's and we already have Cooley.

eh, I don't really know. I just wanted to refute your points. I think you're probably right that we're a few years away from a Super Bowl, but I think we have enough pieces to be a solid playoff team if we're healthy: Campbell, Portis, Sellers, Cooley, Samuels, Rabach, Thomas, Moss, Randle El, Carter, Griffin, Fletcher, McIntosh, Washington, Rogers, Springs, Landry ... all very good when healthy. We could always use more depth, but I only see five "holes" at LG, RT, DT, DE, and FS ... and some of those holes are filled with solid veterans or developing players. We're not one player away, but we're not that far either...

I think my ponit is that we have problems in all areas of the game. Are we the worst in the NFL at any one thing? No. Are we adequate in a lot of things? Yes. Is there only one thing we need to do or to fix to become a contender? No, there are serveral. However, we are a player away in several different positions.

As for the statistician arguments, I don't put a whole lot of credence in our stats. I'm looking with my own eyes. I dont see playmakers on either side of the ball. I see lack of depth at every position on the field. Every single position. And I see a need to address every unit we have in order to become a playoff contender. Just calling it as I see it.

[bulldog]

The Redskins are not a good football team right now. Injuries and age have hit this club in 2007 so that changes are inevitable in the offseason.

The challenge is HOW the changes are going to be made.

There is talent here. There are players this team can build with.

There aren't enough to contend for a division title or a Super Bowl.

The talent tends to be concentrated in the skill positions.

And some players on this team are far overpaid for their contributions, and while the team can keep converting salary into bonuses to keep the club under the cap, at some point we have to get off the merry-go-round and GET RID of the underperformers.

We will not see a winning team here until as in New England or Pittsburgh, the players who don't perform are removed from the team and thus accountability is present for all to see.

[ttr77]

The Redskins are not a good football team right now. Injuries and age have hit this club in 2007 so that changes are inevitable in the offseason.

The challenge is HOW the changes are going to be made.

There is talent here. There are players this team can build with.

There aren't enough to contend for a division title or a Super Bowl.

The talent tends to be concentrated in the skill positions.

And some players on this team are far overpaid for their contributions, and while the team can keep converting salary into bonuses to keep the club under the cap, at some point we have to get off the merry-go-round and GET RID of the underperformers.

We will not see a winning team here until as in New England or Pittsburgh, the players who don't perform are removed from the team and thus accountability is present for all to see.

I hereby nominate bulldog for GM. Well written.

[USS Redskins]

Excellent points. I agree. This team needs a 3 year plan and a new philosophy, and a new coach.

The Free Agents are busts - I say that b/c the Skins havent won anything after pouring cash into FA's. Archuletta and Lloyd are the prime examples of how not to sign FA's. The drafts are ok but limited b/c of giving them for Vet's.

Above all they need a great GM to come in and acess talent, FA and drafts.

[FanSinceWomb]

LLoyd was a trade. Moss was also a trade.

Also, in case it needs to be mentioned again and again and again, the New England Patriots are about to be the greatest team in the history of the NFL after shelling out an ungodly sum of money for 3 FA WRs and a trade for a WR and a FA LB. Of their best three defensive players two were FA acquisitions and one was draft pick from UCF who will likely not be retained next year.

Yes, they have a home grown D-line and O-line and it is a huge part of their success but this idea that throwing cash at skill players doesn't work is absurd. Hell, the best two Wr in league right now are on their team through FA and oodles of cash.

How are all those DE draft picks working out this year? How about Tampa's two first round o-linemen two years ago?

Acquiring players isn't an exact science or the Arizona Cardinals would be winning by now.

Yes, we've been far to frivolous with draft picks, culminating with the 3rd round for Duckett but I think under Gibbs we've actually picked pretty damn well.

[bulldog]

I have no objection to signing free agents

That is PART of the strategy in the NFL to building a team.

However, for teams such as NE, Pittsburgh and others that have won recent Super Bowls it is not the PREDOMINANT method of player acquisition

New England went out and signed a marquee free agent in Thomas and traded for Welker and Moss.

But the team also drafted Tom Brady, Richard Seymour, Asante Samuel, Matt Light, Ben Watson, Vince Wilfork and a host of other players that you would deem 'core'.

And THAT is the difference.

The Patriots had the base already and were merely adding to it.

In the last 4-5 years the club has also cut ties with players such as Ty Law and Lawyor Milloy, who made the pro bowl for the team because of an age vs. salary issue.

The Redskins should never have given Jon Jansen the rich extension they gave him in 2006 when he was 31 and coming off a serious injury in 2004 to the achilles which seems to have robbed him of his quickness in pass protection on the edge.

The Patriots or Steelers in that case would have let Jansen go and used a #1 or #2 draft choice to select his replacement.

[youngestson]

We seem farther and farther away from being even an average football team every week. The combination of age, poor drafting, poor FA signings, and injury has hollowed out the potential this team had at the beginning of the year and has, if anything just gotten worse.

Do we even have a player on the O-line under 30 who is good? I swear It seems as if we can see Kendall and Samuelas aging every week, and as good as Smoot and Washington were the wear and tear of NFL seasons is showing on them.

Cooley, McIntosh, Landry, and ........who else? I'd say Jason but I know many people will disagree with me.

[FanSinceWomb]

Bulldog:

I certainly agree there, the phrase "predominant method" is key.

Focusing solely on Gibbs time back, to sum up the personal decisions:

Gibbs comes back, go 6-10.

Make some moves, Brunell, Moss, team has the imprint of Gibbs now, 10-6 playoffs. Top 10 defense

This is where it goes awry, the 2005 team arguably overachieved on both sides of the ball -- this is where GM could have helped most. Instead we go into the off-season assuming that our strengths (Defense, I mean Joe Sal'vae anyone?) would carry over and all we had to address weaknesses -- the only weakness of the 2005 team being depth in the pass game. We go out and almost exclusively address WR with a D-line move and the dreaded AA move (mind you, the Bears courted the hell out of him and had a top D and ended up in the Superbowl). After the 90 yards of total O in the Tampa game it also became clear that we needed help in coaching so we get Al Saunders.

The wheels fall off -- the D shows it's true colors and is horrendous. Last in everything. The O actually performs decently with the exception of scoring (yeah kind of important, still...)

Now we change philosophies and try to build through draft, work with our young QB. We've acquired good talent since Gibbs and gave extensions to guys who are good for the team, if not through great skill through work-ethic, Rock being a good example.

Who knows? I just think the main problem is that Skins fans have somehow vastly overrated the players on our team and give them credit for winning and the coaches all the credit for losing and I think it's the other way around much of the time.

[bulldog]

The Redskins have some good younger talent but it needs to be enhanced.

Landry and McIntosh are important additions to the defense as starters. Golston and Montgomery to me on a good team should be backups right now while they are still learning and are by all accounts raw.

Hopefully, Rogers can come back healthy as he was playing well when he got injured. Smoot at 27 is going to be around awhile.

But we need youth and talent at defensive end. We need another starting caliber defensive tackle with strength to be the anchor inside.

We also need another corner when Springs departs to be the #3.

Marcus Washington needs watching. His health has been a major question the past 2 years, there is no guarantee he will be back in 2008. Strongside linebacker is another position where some depth is needed.

That's just the defense.

Of course, NO team has a composition of 100% young, pro bowl caliber talent.

Guys like London Fletcher and Andre Carter are going to be on the team in 2008 and are productive for us and deserve a place.

But decisions need to be made on Daniels, Griffin and Marcus Washington. I think Springs is gone in any case, however, at age 32/33 his days as a starting corner are numbered.

When the Redskins are ready to contend Springs will be retired from the NFL.

[FanSinceWomb]

Absolutely agree.

It just comes down to what our personal can do, does anyone think that Gibbs wants JC to be 9th in pass attempts? How far departed from 2005 is our philosophy? How much is a aging and hurt O-line and running back that just isn't that good affect that?

Here are the leaders in pass attempts this year:

D Brees 479

C Palmer 462

B Favre 439

M Hasselbeck 436

J Kitna 418

P Manning 408

D Anderson 406

J Campbell 401

E Manning 398

T Brady 392

Does anything about our team seem like those other teams? Are we built for that kind of game? Considering we usually have two wideouts and JC under center it's scary that he's thrown more than Brady.

We either need to build around this heavy pass plan or get back to grinding the ball on the ground and build for that.

[cnhnyy]

and JC is 0-10 when he threw more than 30 passes a game.

[pjfootballer]

I agree. We are nowhere near a playoff team. At least 2 years away.

[TheLongshot]

I agree. We are nowhere near a playoff team. At least 2 years away.

I don't know how one can say that. If things roll differently, we would be talking playoffs right now instead of being on the outside. We played the cream of the NFC tough and had opportunities to win those games.

I do think we are close to being good, but still a good distance from being great. Course, it doesn't take much to be good in the NFC right now. I don't think the situation is quite as dire as the parent points out. Yes, we could use some more playmakers on both sides of the ball, but we knew that going into the season.

I'd be interested to see who you'd make hard decisions about with veteran players. I'm sure Portis will probably be on your list (even if there aren't much savings to be had there). Brunell is likely to be gone, same with Lloyd. Griffin could be at the end of the line. They could get rid of Springs, but I'm starting to think that he might stick around another year. I don't expect any of the starters on the OL to go, especially since Jansen just reuped last year.

The main needs I see for this team are probably on both lines. A DE who will attract the double-teams off of Carter and free up some of the interior linemen, and probably a couple guards to eventually backfill for Kendall and Thomas. The remainder of the season is going to be a tryout for FS, and I'm sure that the team is going to be looking at the WR position again, but I don't see a major overhaul needed. Most of the expensive veterans are probably going to be replaced by their backups pretty soon. We already saw that this year with Marshall, Saleve'a and Wynn getting let go. I expect the trend to continue.

Jason

[Sticksboi05]

There's two simple things the Skins need for success

1) The ability to close games out. A decent team who does this can make the playoffs.

2) Build through the draft and not Free Agency unless it's a Randy Moss for a 4th round pick trade.

[McD5]

I would suggest taking a step back.....imagining that this isn't the Redskins, a team you love, and then thinking and evaluating with a clear head. That removes all bias from your views.

1. We are much further away than 2-3 players. We need 7-8 players.

2. No chance in hell of us contending in 2-3 years, after 2-3 more drafts. In 2-3 years, our current players will be 2-3 years older, and we will be right where we are now.

3. We could suit up pro bowlers at every single position and still not win as things are set up currently. As I said before the season began--there is no chain of command. Who the hell is calling what? You don't know. I don't know. You can bet your ass that the players don't know.

No one knows who is calling the offensive plays. No one knows what the identity of the team is supposed to be, aside from being church loving. Even Gibbs had no idea that Williams was starting only 10 players this last week on the defense.

Pathetic. Broken. Foolish. Those words come to mind immediately.

To really fix this thing, 2 things need to be done immediately. They might not help ticket sales at the beginning, but it is the only way to be a real team 3 years from now, and the only escape from this 15 year hell:

1. Clear out the entire coaching staff. All of them. Bugel too. Goodbye. People always seem to avoid mentioning Bugel because of the hogs. Yes, we have some injuries...so does everyone. News Flash: Bugel Sucks this year.

2. Smart people were calling for Portis to be traded before the season began to build up other areas of the team. The wisdom in this is now becoming clear to the majority of people here. Trade Portis, and every other "marquee" player we can get anything for. Once the last of the overpaid, underachieving check collectors is gone......we will actually have people that put forth effort on the field.

Or.....we can keep doing what we are doing.....sign another one or two players, sell some tickets.....and get absolutely no where.

What is the goal? To make it into the playoffs to get embarrassed? Or to build a contender?

Let's build a contender. Rip it all apart, and start over.

[AzSkinsFan63]

We are "scoring in the red zone" away from being really good.

[GaryGreenMonk]

We're close to being as bad as you can get.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

We're close to being as bad as you can get.

I don't agree with that.

I'm not saying there is no talent out there. In Campbell, Cooley, McIntosh, Landry, and a couple others, we have SOME pieces.

I'm just saying, we arent "close" to being a good team. We have a long way to go. Everyone wants us to sign one guy at this position, and one guy at that, and then BOOM, we're in the playoffs....

NEWSFLASH... that's not how it works.

[bulldog]

You have to remember that when the Redskins were a Super Bowl team we used to beat some teams like New Orleans and Arizona and Detroit by 3 or 4 points.....

was that really something that the Cardinals or Lions could hang their hats on?

no. these teams OFTEN played and LOST games that were closely contested. but they finished 5-11 or 6-10 regardless.

and that is my point here.

the Redskins are good enough to compete (ie they are not Miami or the Rams without Jackson), but can they really stand in there with the injuries and play up front to BEAT that many teams?

that is the question.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

You have to remember that when the Redskins were a Super Bowl team we used to beat some teams like New Orleans and Arizona and Detroit by 3 or 4 points.....

was that really something that the Cardinals or Lions could hang their hats on?

no. these teams OFTEN played and LOST games that were closely contested. but they finished 5-11 or 6-10 regardless.

and that is my point here.

the Redskins are good enough to compete (ie they are not Miami or the Rams without Jackson), but can they really stand in there with the injuries and play up front to BEAT that many teams?

that is the question.

Exactly... they aren't the worst team in the league. They have SOME players

But, when you stack them up, they are many many players away from competing for a Superbowl. All this talk about we just need a big receiver, or a D lineman is silly. We need help EVERYWHERE. If not on the front lines, then for depth.

[Redskins4ever]

Our problem is that we don't have enough quality depth. A reserve player most times isn't good enough to be a starter. This is where a good general manager would come in to play. We have quality depth at LB but that's all.

[JoeKnowsBest]

1. False. No Randy Thomas, no Jon Jansen, no Mike Sellers. Bye bye running game.

2. False. We pass the ball well, when we call pass plays.

3. False again. Look at the stats. We typically stop the run. Giving up a hundred yards against the Bills was an aberration.

4. Wow, ALSO false. Redskins have been one of the best teams at preventing the big play. We get beaten deep over the middle, mainly because Taylor has been out for the past three weeks (and won't be back ever :cry: ).

5. True.

Well, 20% of your points are good.

Exactly what ThePreciating said.