Zen-like Todd Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I'm on a poll roll. :doh: ...edit... dont give me crap for missing choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I hate this poll because the choices suck. And, someone tell me what a moderate is again? A moderate can't be excessive or extreme. Therefore, a moderate can never believe in any single thing completely. Is anyone really a moderate, or do they just use the word because they can't make up their mind on various issues and hold some of one party and some of another so they think they are somehow moderate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Mebbe your interpretation of the choices suck, or possibly, you are PMSing. They were chosen for a reason. Whether YOU think a position (or lack thereof) is justified is completely irrelevant. This isn't the "What political identifies does Art find to be internally consistent, supportable, and worthwhile?" poll. Just because someone is pissing in your cornflakes, don't piss in everyone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Actually, TCO, I kind of figured you'd catch the sarcasm in the first sentence since you'd just asked for no one to give you cr@p because you missed choices, so I made a choices joke. I don't hate the poll, nor do I find your choices incorrect. Next time I'll put a smilie or something and hope you're with me. Though, I still want to know what the hell a moderate is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Oh man.... I must say, I TOTALLY missed that one. Ok, that was funny. I'd just been going through those other combative Tailgate threads and assumed your tenor to be consistent. Silly me. As for knowing what a moderate is.... let's just say that neither of us fit the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Looks like us independents are rocking the vote early in this poll. Where are all those vocal Republicans, anyway? And, it seems that NO ONE is admitting to being a Dem. C'mon gbear, JackC ... vote your party! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Hey, I voted Dem. It just took till I got back to the board. See, you should never trust those early exit polls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 No problem TCO. I actually have rarely found you so off base and without support that you've required the type of tenor I reserve for those special folks. I figured you'd know that . But, no worries, it could look like I was being p!ssy, because, often, I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Well, since I'll be flogged and then publicly shunned if I say I'm a moderate, I'll go with Independent. I feel strongly about some Democrat issues and strongly about some Republican issues, and (gasp!) some issues I don't have a strong opinion on. Please forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Conservative GOP Moderate is a spineless position(?) to take. Atleast liberals, even though they are usually wrong stand for something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Originally posted by Henry Well, since I'll be flogged and then publicly shunned if I say I'm a moderate, I'll go with Independent. I feel strongly about some Democrat issues and strongly about some Republican issues, and (gasp!) some issues I don't have a strong opinion on. Please forgive me. C'mon Henry, don't change what you are worrying about being chastised here. If you're moderate ... so be it. If that's how you feel, cool. (You do sound like an independent, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Henry, It's not a sign of a moderate that there are some issues you don't have a strong view on. There are some issues I don't have a strong view on. A moderate, by definition, is a person who has no strong view on anything. They are not clear on any issue at all. That's what a moderate is. You have defined what an Independent thinks he is so I think you've made the right vote. But, I'm dying to see a person who's moderate because the moment I find a view they have a strong view on, they cease being a moderate. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Voted independent. Can I be a moderate though? On one hand, I like what ART says,.......but I kinda like what TCo says. Hmmmmmmmmm...........what do you think? Now that's a moderate......... BTW, I really did invent the internet.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I agree with Art, but not whole-heartedly. More in a moderate kind of way. I feel very strongly about my moderate views on some issues, independently speaking, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 I'd just like to say that I'm extremely disappointed that our Socialist and Communist board members haven't stepped forward yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Where is the button for fascist? There has to be someone here who fits part of this party. Maybe not the entire definition, but the majority of it. Fascist --> a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn X Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 WHIGS FOREVER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 True independant.... I hate the "I follow my party to the letter" crap. How can one party stand for everything you believe in... I agree with many GOP stances, and I also agree with many Dem stances. Neither totally represents my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Code, Go ahead and list some of your Republican beliefs. And some of your Democratic ones. I'd be interested to see how two parties embody you better than one does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Ok,,,,, I'm against welfare, I'm against affirmative action, I'm against big burocracies (opps, spelling), I'm against the christian right wing, I'm for a womans right to choose, I'm against giving tax breaks to big business, I'm against the private school vouchers.... GOP: I like certain general things they usually stand for like being against welfare and AA and want the people to make their own decisions of what to do with their money, rather than having the govt make those choices... I don't like how the GOP is the "Moral Voice"... that is bull $hit anyway... I don't want church and state mixed, I don't like the opposition to abortion, whether I would have one or not if I were female is a whole different story, but I don't think it's the govt's place to be involved.. Dems: I like their general stance on individual rights, I like that they are against big business, I like that they stay out of being the moral voices for the most part, I don't like how Dems feel that Affirmative Action is the right thing to do, it's discrimination to me, In short, I generally don't like the GOP deciding what's morally right for me or others... And I generall don't like the Dems deciding who needs more help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Code, As it will be of interest to me, let's speak to the points you've made. "I'm against welfare, I'm against affirmative action, I'm against big burocracies (opps, spelling), I'm against the christian right wing, I'm for a womans right to choose, I'm against giving tax breaks to big business, I'm against the private school vouchers.... " Being against the Christian right wing is not necessarily all that compelling to me. I'm against the Jesse Jackson religious left wing. So what. You wrote that you are for a woman's right to choose. Ok. What's this mean? Should a woman be allowed to masturbate on the steps of the state capital if she chooses? How about should a woman be allowed, being in control of her body and all, to mutilate herself in a grocery store? My guess is you don't believe that, so, we know you don't believe a woman has a right to choose to do anything, so we know you will place limits on what a woman has a right to choose. So, speaking to abortion, of which I believe is necessary in cases of rape, incest and endangerment to the mother, do you believe the woman has a right to choose to abort a crowning baby? A crowning baby is one that is in the process of being born, whether naturally or assisted medically. It's viable. If it comes out a little further, it'll start to breathe the air. But, if the mother wants, should she be allowed to have that baby's skull broken open, the brains sucked out, then pincers inserted into her body to dismember the aborted child? My guess is, like 95 percent of folks in this workd, you don't believe a woman has a right to choose that. Therefore, you don't believe a woman has a right to choose. As for private school vouchers, I just would ask on what grounds. Are you against them on the grounds that there is a separation of church and state? If so, I'd like you to point out where that separation exists, since it doesn't . If not, what grounds. Just wondering as this stuff facinates me. Are you against giving 2000 credits to college students either in the form of the Hope, or Lifetime education credit? This is already done. You are against this? "GOP: I like certain general things they usually stand for like being against welfare and AA and want the people to make their own decisions of what to do with their money, rather than having the govt make those choices... I don't like how the GOP is the "Moral Voice"... that is bull $hit anyway... I don't want church and state mixed, I don't like the opposition to abortion, whether I would have one or not if I were female is a whole different story, but I don't think it's the govt's place to be involved.." A couple of quick points on this. The phrasing of this passage seems to indicate that the government is the federal government. I agree with you that it shouldn't be involved. That means you are a Republican on this issue, not a Democrat because Democrats want abortion as a governmentally protected right and Republicans say the Federal Government has no right to mandate that it is. States should be in charge of making laws for their citizenry. Since you want the government out, then you aren't condemning the Republicans, since we agree. We don't want the federal government involved at all. It should never have gotten involved 30 years ago. Also, on abortion, since you are for it, I assume anyone who kills a pregnant woman shouldn't be charged with killing a baby in your mind? Like the couple on the Illinois death row who were commuted to life who wanted a child, so they went to the home of a late-term mother, cut open her belly and took the child. Obviously this isn't murdering a child, right? If it IS, then you aren't for abortion. If it is not, then you are. I'm agnostic. I don't believe in religion. I do not, however, delude myself into thinking church isn't commingled with state and that it has been since this country was born. "Dems: I like their general stance on individual rights, I like that they are against big business, I like that they stay out of being the moral voices for the most part, I don't like how Dems feel that Affirmative Action is the right thing to do, it's discrimination to me," This confuses me, Code. You like the Dems stance on individual rights? You recognize the Dems want the government to make choices for individuals, as you've said. Dems don't believe in individual rights. They believe in government enforced rights, like affirmative action. There are no individual rights you can point to that Dems stand for. Everything they stand for is governmentally run and mandated which removes individual choice. As for being against "big business" let me just say, Dems aren't against big business. The most wealthy Senators and Congressmen are Dems with thick ties to big business. Further, you're not against big business in the slightest. Big business is why you have a job. It's why we all have money to buy stuff. Without business we'd be a third world country. You love big business. You adore it. You just don't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Art, let me clarify.... I feel that a woman has a right to choose if she wants to have an abortion within the first three months of pregnancy... I cannot answer if I would or would not if I were a woman, I just don't think it is the governments place to say she cannot have an abortion. Whether an abortion is "moral" leads into my next thing.. I don't like the christian right wing who are usually GOP telling me what I should or should not do or be able to do, watch, take part in or so on... (I hate Jesse Jackson too..) I'm against prayer in school, why?? because what if the teacher of your child is of a religion that you do not believe in... I will send my children to school to get an education, I will send them to the church of my choosing until they are old enough to choose for themselves. I am against private school vouchers because I work for a public school system. Simple enough. I am against big business in terms of giving them huge tax relief... the middle class and poor in my opinion should get the majority of the tax breaks, to be honest, if I were rich, my opinion on this might change... I base my opinions on how they effect me.. basically, the one disagreement that I have with you, is that there is NO right or wrong answer. It is all opinion... People's opinions change based on what they believe in and how things effect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 So 90days is okay but 91 is not? I believe that it's the womens right to do what she wants until the baby is born, if she wants to committ murder she has a bigger jury to face than me. But it's not place to tell her not to. I also believe that Roe V Wade should be overturned because it violates the Constitution. Lets let that one simmer a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 So 90days is okay but 91 is not? I believe that it's the womens right to do what she wants until the baby is born, if she wants to committ murder she has a bigger jury to face than me. But it's not place to tell her not to. I also believe that Roe V Wade should be overturned because it violates the Constitution. Lets let that one simmer a bit. Like I said, whether I would have an abortion or not is not the question... Art brings up that in his opinion it's ok in cases of rape or incest etc... that makes sense.... "I'm against killing a living thing, unless this living thing was forced upon the woman...." I don't really get it.. you either think it's murder or you don't. What about aborting a fetus that has a defect? Or serious illness? I will say that it does annoy me how many use abortion as birth control... but just as you said, they will face that in time... I'm not the jury or judge. I also think it's funny how the right wing nuts fight the "murder" of these fetuses by killing people....hmmm, that makes sense... I say to protesters of all kinds.. get a life. I guess in general, I see it this way: I don't really have a problem if "we" don't see eye to eye, but don't try to impose "your" morals or judgements or opinions on "me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Code, thoughtful reply. I'll reply within. "I feel that a woman has a right to choose if she wants to have an abortion within the first three months of pregnancy... I cannot answer if I would or would not if I were a woman, I just don't think it is the governments place to say she cannot have an abortion." Code, simply put then, you do not believe in a woman's right to choose. A woman's right to choose means you would put no impediments on this right. You don't believe it's a right at all else you wouldn't phrase your stance that the first three months is ok to you but the rest isn't. In fact, you hold neither a Republican or a Democratic view on this as they tend to be polar that it's all or nothing in the platforms for each party, if not in the statements of the party members. I feel the federal government has no right to say a woman can or can not have an abortion under any circumstances. I believe the states have individual rights they should be allowed to legislated for the constituents of the state. So, we share a view, a Republican one, that the Federal government has no place here. "Whether an abortion is "moral" leads into my next thing.. I don't like the christian right wing who are usually GOP telling me what I should or should not do or be able to do, watch, take part in or so on... (I hate Jesse Jackson too..) I'm against prayer in school, why?? because what if the teacher of your child is of a religion that you do not believe in... I will send my children to school to get an education, I will send them to the church of my choosing until they are old enough to choose for themselves." I am agnostic. I did not say "God" during the Pledge when I was in school. I did not participate in school prayer, though I may have held that silent moment for whatever other considerations I may have wanted to reflect on at the time. What you are saying here is you are against the rights of others to have a moment of prayer and reflection. No one who is for school prayer, as I am, as an agnostic who will not participate, is saying that a child must participate. It's simply stated that those who do have that belief should be allowed to participate. The government shouldn't mandate that any student should pray. Nor should it mandate that any student shouldn't be so allowed. There, absolutely, should be moments to allow individuals to express their individual beliefs. "I am against private school vouchers because I work for a public school system. Simple enough." Fair enough, though, what do you do for the public school system? Do you teach, or are you part of the problem that allows for increased consuption of public money in the form of functionaries and adminstrators who serve no tangible purpose? I'm all for hiring teachers. I'm all for firing admins. "I am against big business in terms of giving them huge tax relief... the middle class and poor in my opinion should get the majority of the tax breaks, to be honest, if I were rich, my opinion on this might change... I base my opinions on how they effect me.." Code, what you're saying here is you have a right to my money. You can't believe that. The middle class and poor, by in large, pay no tax. As has been published by the IRS, the top 50 percent of wage earners pay 96 percent of the Federal Income Tax. You can't give money to poor people in the form tax relief because they don't pay taxes already. You can't continue to redestribute wealth. This isn't the Soviet Union. The real "rich", the Top 1 percent of wage earners, earn 21 percent of the money in this country and yet are forced to pay some 37 percent of the federal tax burden. This is wrong. It's unjust. And it's selfish for you to consider that YOU should have any right to anyone's money. If that's a Democratic belief in your mind, you're right . But, how tax credits to business help you is by providing you a job. Without business employing people who pay tax to provide money for public funding, you'd be out of work. When you give money back to business, you create jobs. Further, a business pays no tax anyway. Anything they are charged in tax they simply pass along to us as consumers. What we should do is zero out corporate taxes as that would have the greatest benefit directly in your life than giving $500 to a person making $20,000 a year. Prices would fall, profits would rise, the market would increase, jobs would be created, creating more federal income to tax, and you'd know just how much you love big business and hate people who think it's acceptable to make your life more difficult by taxing big business as if they should support your ability to buy a governmentally financed home. "basically, the one disagreement that I have with you, is that there is NO right or wrong answer. It is all opinion... People's opinions change based on what they believe in and how things effect them." Code, there is always a right answer. There's always a wrong one. I may not always be right. I may not always be wrong. But, there is always a right and a wrong. You are describing relativism. I'm describing truth. People may hold a different opinion. One that may be right. One that may be wrong. One that may change to either from either. But, there is always a right. And a wrong. In everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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