Wade Phillips... Cowboys question

[TEK2000]

Thanks for the research Bubba!

I just wanted to show whether the teams WP took over got better or worse defensively from the season before he arrived.

Red is the season prior to his taking over the defense or the team.

Year Team Points allowed rank

1980 NO 28 (dead last)

1981 NO 24

1982 NO 8

1983 NO 12

1984 NO 19

1985 NO 22

1985 Eagles 10

1986 eag 12

1987 eag 25

1988 eag 14

1988 Den 20

1989 den 1

1990 den 23

1991 den 3

1992 den 19

1993 den 10

1994 den 25

1994 Buf 12

1995 buf 12

1996 buf 6

1997 buf 23

1998 buf 15

1998 buf 2

2000 buf 18

2001 Atl 24

2002 atl 8

2003 atl 30

2003 Atl 16

2004 SD 11

2005 SD 13

2006 SD 7

[Birdlives]

I agree that that team was not much better than a .500 team. The defense was good enough to rank #2nd in points allowed and BP was smart enough to play close to the vest with a notibly weak offense. I think any good coach would have done the same. There was some talent there though with Ellis, Coakley, Ekuban, Williams, Glenn, Galloway, and LaRoy Glover, Woodson.

They did have some nice players back then, but I think people still underestimate how much of a motivator Parcells is. I thought his whole no one gets a star on their helemts until they earn it style was brilliant.

IMO Wade has gotten better through the years. In Buffalo his last 3 teams ranked in the top 11, 2 seasons in Atlanta were horrible, but in SD they ranked in the top 16 for 3 years. I haven't dug yet to see what happened in Atlanta, maybe he stunk there or maybe they were more focused on getting offensive help. I don't know. I expect him to improve the defense so I wouldn't agree that he's done his job if they hold position this year.

I'm not going to knock Wade as a DC, and the guy does have a winning record as an HC, but I think the flip side of that is the laid back manner just doesn't look good. Already a bunch of guys are starting to take advantage of his demeanor and the season hasn't started yet (having so many guys bail on OTA's seemed like the wrong message to send a new HC and OC). That and the fact that he has yet to win a playoff game in spite of multiple HC positions on some fairly talented teams has to make dallas fans a little nervous. I know some guys are saying they're glad he's gone, but can you honestly answer you'd be more disappointed with your chances if Parcells had decided to stay as HC?

I would have liked for them to have gotten another NT in the draft for backup purposes if nothing else. I have my concerns about him as well. He's a good player but a place I'd like to see upgraded.

No one knows about wanting to get DL help more than us. It fills the stadium area in here and is unavoidable. In reality though there just wasn't a lot any team could do to improve over the offseason on the front end. No real marquis DL FA's and draft picks tend to need time to develop.

They really don't try to move the linemen around as I understand it. It's more about shooting gaps. The book on Spears at draft day was that he has good speed. Canty wasn't as fast but they felt he had a good swim move and leaping ability. I tend to think that having the LB's more involved in the blitzing will help. It will be interesting to see.

Moving linemen becomes inevitable at times though. I actually think Canty will transition better than Spears because of his history in the 3-4. I believe Groh played alot of it at VA.

I agree about it being high risk/high reward. I fully expect that they will give up some big plays during the course of the year. However, they gave up a lot of big plays last year playing a "safer" scheme. I see opportunities to have defensive big plays as worth the risk.

I think ABQ is right on this one. It isn't just about big plays. Some of those plays have to translate into turnover's to be real effective. Getting a 10 yard sack and then giving up a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 12 is just a momentum killer.

I know most aren't into TOP, but I think with an agressive defense it becomes important. Guys need to get off the field, especially up front where dallas may be forced to play Spears and Canty a lot unless some of their late round picks develop. That running game will have to be strong on the other side.

There will be a line rotation with Ratliff, Stanley, and Hatcher. Hatcher and Ratliff combined for 6.5 sacks last year in limited play. I'm also hoping that if Ellis is back at 100% they work him into the rotation at DE and get Spencer in across from Ware to bring more pressure. Like you said, we'll see.

TheFan

If Ellis is 100% having him, Spencer, and Ware attacking the line will make for a potent attack. That's a pretty big if at his age and with that injury however.

I like Hatcher, he could have a big season spelling the starters. The other things that would concern me if I was a dallas fan is the lack of injuries last year, probably not going to happen this year, the depth at NT being key, and as I've stated more than once I think the defensive backfield is a flat out liability. Another "only time will" tell issue.

[THEHEREAFTER]

I like Hatcher, he could have a big season spelling the starters. .

Suprising statement from you. Most non-Boys fans don't know who he is. I think he'll flourish this season. Agreed.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Just make sure you remind EVERYONE about this.

Eff you clown shoes!

[THEHEREAFTER]

Eff you clown shoes!

:no: :excited: :excited: :excited: :excited:

BBUUUUUUBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAA! Are you catching this? Ban Him! :cool:

[bubba9497]

Just make sure you remind EVERYONE about this.

No, I am only picking on YOU

and just you

no one else... ever

I am singling you out

[bubba9497]

Eff you clown shoes!

If I was worried about everyone name calling, I would remind you to check the board rules

even if someone deserves it, doesn't make it right, and suggest you can be more creative in humbling someone, than risk a time out because of insulting them

two wrongs don't make a right

but since I am only singling out THA...... :laugh:

[TEK2000]

I'm not going to knock Wade as a DC, and the guy does have a winning record as an HC, but I think the flip side of that is the laid back manner just doesn't look good. Already a bunch of guys are starting to take advantage of his demeanor and the season hasn't started yet (having so many guys bail on OTA's seemed like the wrong message to send a new HC and OC). That and the fact that he has yet to win a playoff game in spite of multiple HC positions on some fairly talented teams has to make dallas fans a little nervous. I know some guys are saying they're glad he's gone, but can you honestly answer you'd be more disappointed with your chances if Parcells had decided to stay as HC?

There were a total of 11 OTA's and 2 minicamps, from all reports, a minimal # of players missed any voluntary workouts... it just so happens that it was reported because players never missed Parcells "voluntary workouts", BUT, Parcells only held 4 OTA's and 1 minicamp during the offseason.

Personally, I was dreading another season of Parcells. I was a strong supporter of Parcells for a long time, even during the 2006 season, but, like every December under Parcells, the Cowboys faded badly and looked very unmotivated, worn out, and just flat out BAD at the end of the season.

Its not that I think Parcells is a terrible coach, I just don't think the Cowboys got the same Parcells that the Giants and Patriots had. He did some great things for the Cowboys organization with compiling a much more talented team than he had when he got here as well as creating a much better attitude within the organization... one with higher expectations and a better work ethic.

I mainly just dreaded the thought of seeing the same exact thing again in the 2007 season as we saw in 2005 and 2006.

I think ABQ is right on this one. It isn't just about big plays. Some of those plays have to translate into turnover's to be real effective. Getting a 10 yard sack and then giving up a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 12 is just a momentum killer.

I know most aren't into TOP, but I think with an agressive defense it becomes important. Guys need to get off the field, especially up front where dallas may be forced to play Spears and Canty a lot unless some of their late round picks develop. That running game will have to be strong on the other side.

With our "read and react" style of defense in 2006, we struggled badly with stopped teams on 3rd down late in the season. I think many Cowboys fans are just looking forward to something more aggressive after watching Zimmer's read and react style for the last umpteen seasons.

Its true, our running game will have to improve a lot and try to keep the other team's offense off the field.

The biggest question mark for me personell wise is the NT position. Jamall Williams is a freaking BEAST for San Diego and I'm not sure Jason Ferguson will be enough for what this defense will require. I'm hopeful though.

[TEK2000]

double post. DOH!

[ArmchairRedskin]

If I was worried about everyone name calling, I would remind you to check the board rules

even if someone deserves it, doesn't make it right, and suggest you can be more creative in humbling someone, than risk a time out because of insulting them

two wrongs don't make a right

but since I am only singling out THA...... :laugh:

:laugh:

THA knows I'm just funnin'

[ouvan59]

Thanks for the research Bubba!

I just wanted to show whether the teams WP took over got better or worse defensively from the season before he arrived.

Red is the season prior to his taking over the defense or the team.

Frankly I don't see a real pattern other than he can't sustain a good defense from one year to the next. The two times that he took over a team and dramatically improved the defense in his first year they actually ended up worse than before he took over in year two. That resume looks pretty depressing if you ask me.

[TheFan]

They did have some nice players back then, but I think people still underestimate how much of a motivator Parcells is. I thought his whole no one gets a star on their helemts until they earn it style was brilliant.

I agree about BP being a good motivator, but he couldn't maintain it through the entire season, year after year. If the team fades once, okay, but every season... It got old. I'm with you though, I did like earning the star.

I'm not going to knock Wade as a DC, and the guy does have a winning record as an HC, but I think the flip side of that is the laid back manner just doesn't look good. Already a bunch of guys are starting to take advantage of his demeanor and the season hasn't started yet (having so many guys bail on OTA's seemed like the wrong message to send a new HC and OC). That and the fact that he has yet to win a playoff game in spite of multiple HC positions on some fairly talented teams has to make dallas fans a little nervous. I know some guys are saying they're glad he's gone, but can you honestly answer you'd be more disappointed with your chances if Parcells had decided to stay as HC?

He only had two teams where he was the HC for 2 or more seasons. With those, he made the playoffs on 3 out of the 5 seasons. Denver lost big 24-42 to the Raiders, Buffalo lost to Miami 17-24, and to the Titans 16-22 on the Music City Miracle. I think 4 will be the charm for him.

As for being laid back, compared to BP he is, but I'm curious if you'd call Gibbs or Dungy laid back? All three stress bonding and I don't think any of them are "in your face" coaches.

I think ABQ is right on this one. It isn't just about big plays. Some of those plays have to translate into turnover's to be real effective. Getting a 10 yard sack and then giving up a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 12 is just a momentum killer.

I know most aren't into TOP, but I think with an agressive defense it becomes important.That running game will have to be strong on the other side.

I agree. I'm also one that thinks TOP is important and I expect that Dallas will be atleast as good at it as they were last year (10th).

The other things that would concern me if I was a dallas fan is the lack of injuries last year, probably not going to happen this year, the depth at NT being key, and as I've stated more than once I think the defensive backfield is a flat out liability. Another "only time will" tell issue.

Injuries happen and they might happen more this year. Just because they didn't have many last year doesn't mean they are destined to have a bunch this year. I won't argue that it could happen though.

As far as the secondary goes, the only time I get concerned is when we give the QB's too much time back there. The secondary does fine in coverage for 2-4 seconds so it's going to be about the front 7 putting the QB's on a short clock. I think they can do it more often than not in Wade's system. We'll see.

TheFan

[Birdlives]

There were a total of 11 OTA's and 2 minicamps, from all reports, a minimal # of players missed any voluntary workouts... it just so happens that it was reported because players never missed Parcells "voluntary workouts", BUT, Parcells only held 4 OTA's and 1 minicamp during the offseason.

Terrell Owens and Terry Glenn have not attended any of the club's Organized Training Activities sessions this week. Roy Williams, linebacker DeMarcus Ware, running back Julius Jones and nose tackle Jason Ferguson were also among a group of players who missed at least one of the voluntary sessions.

With that qualifier out of the way, I think offensive coordinator Jason Garrett has to be somewhat disappointed that he's trying to implement a new passing scheme while quarterback Tony Romo sits to pee is throwing to Patrick Crayton and Sammy Hurd.

I'm certainly not going to argue that a large portion of the roster missed time in the off-season, but look at the players who did. They're some of the most important players on the team and quite a few team leaders. Not a good example to set for the young guys.

If it were the Skins it would be concerning to me and certainly most cowboys fans made a huge deal of Springs and Taylor missing the limited number of practices they were absent for.

I think while it may not be huge, it's a bad precedent to set and a bad way to start a new coaching regime. Romo sits to pee is talking SuperBowl and these guys aren't in getting time in two new schemes.

I know, I know they new offense and defense aren't altogether different, but every little repetition helps. These guys got plenty of time after the season ended not to mention the time off now (six weeks?) so missing a few OTA's is not really a good thing no matter how Wade wnats to spin it.

[Birdlives]

Injuries happen and they might happen more this year. Just because they didn't have many last year doesn't mean they are destined to have a bunch this year. I won't argue that it could happen though.

TheFan

I wasn't trying to imply you should expect more injuries, but that they were abnormally injury free last year. In spite of that they were 20th in points allowed. If they do have more injuries, that could be a recipe for disaster considering the expectations the cowboys have.

[Fred Jones]

I wasn't trying to imply you should expect more injuries, but that they were abnormally injury free last year. In spite of that they were 20th in points allowed. If they do have more injuries, that could be a recipe for disaster considering the expectations the cowboys have.

It is about the law of averages. Injuries plague every team. Some seasons are worse than others. That said, nothing is guaranteed so they may even have less injuries than last year.

I agree with Bird that if they do have more injuries they will suffer.

Whenever I make a prediction as to how well a team will perform the number one item on my list is always staying relatively healthy as a team.

[TheFan]

I wasn't trying to imply you should expect more injuries, but that they were abnormally injury free last year. In spite of that they were 20th in points allowed. If they do have more injuries, that could be a recipe for disaster considering the expectations the cowboys have.

Gotcha. Although I bet some of the Cowboys, like Henry, played when they probably should have sat because they feared Bill. I don't think the injury reports that they turned in week to week were entirely accurate. They certainly didn't suffer major injuries though outside of Ellis on the defense.

I contend that the reason they gave away so many points was because the only two players that were free to attack without playing read-react were Ware and Ellis. With the DL playing more aggressively I think points allowed will decrease.

Anyway, we'll see how it works out.

TheFan

[Riggo#44]

I contend that the reason they gave away so many points was because the only two players that were free to attack without playing read-react were Ware and Ellis. With the DL playing more aggressively I think points allowed will decrease.

This is the big leap-of-faith here for Cowboys fans. Hatcher is the only one on the defensive line who even remotely displayed any pass-rushing ability. You can claim "new system" all you want - but until then - the D-line pass rush is a big-big question.

[TheFan]

This is the big leap-of-faith here for Cowboys fans. Hatcher is the only one on the defensive line who even remotely displayed any pass-rushing ability. You can claim "new system" all you want - but until then - the D-line pass rush is a big-big question.

You're absolutely correct about Hatcher being the only DL that demonstrated pass rushing ability in BP's read-react system. (At least, as far as we can tell because I haven't found a site that I have access to that shows the number of pressures the players were credited with. Pressures can be as good as sacks.)

Could that possibly be because Hatcher didn't play read-react? Could it be that Hatcher wasn't a starter because he didn't play the defense the way BP wanted? If he was a better pass rusher, doesn't it make sense that he would be starting?

This year will give us a much better idea about them. Both were highly regarded coming out of college and may yet demonstrate excellent pass rushing skills. I really don't think Canty and Spears were ever turned loose to rush the passer during the past 2 years.

In any case, isn't it common sense that Wade's attacking style gives DL more opportunities to apply pressure than a read-react approach? Even mediocre linemen should achieve more sacks and pressures in that system simply because they have more opportunities.

TheFan

[ABQCOWBOY]

Canty is a guy who is long. He is not a physical freak of nature as far as quickness or flat out speed but he is extremely long armed. He gets to guys in much the same way Jim Jeffcoat used to. As he matures and is better able to hold position through leverage techniques, he will become a more effective outside pass rusher. Spears is a guy who has the natural explosion to rush upfield. He's not an edge rusher, per say, because he doesn't have the flat out speed but he does have the quickness and strength to generate pass rush. The problem with him, IMO, is desire. He just hasn't showed enough to vault him into a respected pass rush threat. Hatcher is a good combination of speed, quickness and strength. He's a guy who, IMO, is a natural pass rusher. He just understands how to use his hands, how to apply body lean and leverage in your pass rush. It is very possible that he could be a better fit for Phillips scheme. Ferguson is a wild card. The biggest difference in Phillips 34 and a classic 34 is how he uses his NT. He uses him to penatrate and basically, dictate flow of the offensive play. Depending on which Gap the NT penatrates, it forces a running play of a pass protection to a given direction. In this way, Phillips funnals the running game into a desired gap or pass protection to a certain area of the field. He then uses the secondary rush to attack the unoccupied areas of the pocket in passing situations. In the run game, he sends LBs or safeties to heard and collect the RBs once a give play has been funneled towards the pursuit. To be succesful with this, you must have a DL that is quick enough to shoot the gap and gain advantage. This immediatly creates issues for the OL. They are now forced to react as opposed to carry out the designed blocking scheme. This will work and be effective if you have the quickness along the front to dictate. I don't know if Ferguson still has this ability, which is why I could see more playing time for some of the others. As I said earlier, the achilies heel of this type of scheme is delays, counters, cutbacks and misdirection. If you have a technically sound OL, they will be able to use this defense approach against the defense. If you can trap well and execute influence blocks based on the first step of the DL, then you can take advantage of this scheme. That is not easy because you must have a very good OL and you must have backs who can excellerate to the gap and then to daylight very quickly. They have to have good vision and patience. In the passing game, a good QB will always make you pay if you don't get to him in time. That's just how it is. The great ones make you pay. In the end, there is nothing really new in football. Everything has been done, everything has been tried. It's just a matter of how well you execute for any team playing any scheme. Personel is key in this regard but you can have the best talent in the world and get your collective arses kicked if you don't execute well. Pretty simple stuff when you get right down to it. It's all about "Can you do it before it gets done to you?"

[Riggo#44]

You're absolutely correct about Hatcher being the only DL that demonstrated pass rushing ability in BP's read-react system. (At least, as far as we can tell because I haven't found a site that I have access to that shows the number of pressures the players were credited with. Pressures can be as good as sacks.)

Could that possibly be because Hatcher didn't play read-react? Could it be that Hatcher wasn't a starter because he didn't play the defense the way BP wanted? If he was a better pass rusher, doesn't it make sense that he would be starting?

I was wondering that same thing when I was researching their stats...I also was wondering my Ellis was moved in the 1st place - his numbers weren't too different from Ty Warren's in NE.

Although I am prone to give Parcells the benefit of the doubt on this one.

This year will give us a much better idea about them. Both were highly regarded coming out of college and may yet demonstrate excellent pass rushing skills. I really don't think Canty and Spears were ever turned loose to rush the passer during the past 2 years.

In any case, isn't it common sense that Wade's attacking style gives DL more opportunities to apply pressure than a read-react approach? Even mediocre linemen should achieve more sacks and pressures in that system simply because they have more opportunities.

TheFan

In my mind, attacking = gambling. Yes it gives the opportunity for more sacks - and lets face it - it's pretty hard to have less then what they had last year. But it may also expose the secondary more. I could see a lot of deep balls being completed. This is exactly why Williams had to "call off the dogs" last year - he didn't have the horses in the secondary to run the d he wanted to.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I was wondering that same thing when I was researching their stats...I also was wondering my Ellis was moved in the 1st place - his numbers weren't too different from Ty Warren's in NE.

Although I am prone to give Parcells the benefit of the doubt on this one.

In my mind, attacking = gambling. Yes it gives the opportunity for more sacks - and lets face it - it's pretty hard to have less then what they had last year. But it may also expose the secondary more. I could see a lot of deep balls being completed. This is exactly why Williams had to "call off the dogs" last year - he didn't have the horses in the secondary to run the d he wanted to.

Ellis is a kind of sore spot for many fans. It is my opinion, and I am definatly in the minority where Cowboy fans are concerned, that moving Ellis to OLB was a mistake. He did very well for us last year but lets face it, that whole move created his achillies injury. Could he have experience this at DE? Sure, but I suspect the injury was more a result of Ellis having to move around and do things that he has not been accustomed to most of his career. To me, the better move would have been to trade him 2 years ago. Ellis will always be best suited to a 43 DE IMO. Yeah, he was succesful in the transition but at what cost? The fact is that Ellis was the only real long time Vet on the defensive side of the ball. We need his leadership on the field and in the locker room. The Cowboys knew that he was under contract and for a very reasonable price. He was never going to be traded for those reasons. However, his trade value was very good two years ago. Now, it's probably poor because of the injury. I do hope Ellis can come back and be productive for us but I think it's unfortunate for him. Circumstances have not been kind to him and in truth, he was stupid to sign the contact he did when he resigned with us. He should have turned the screws to us and leveraged a nice contract that took care of him for years to come. He didn't but it just goes to show that nice guys do finish last. Unfortunate but true. That is my opnion of Ellis.

[TheFan]

I was wondering that same thing when I was researching their stats...I also was wondering my Ellis was moved in the 1st place - his numbers weren't too different from Ty Warren's in NE.

If I remember correctly, Ellis was moved to LB because he was better suited size and ability wise to a 3-4 LB rather than DE. ABQ can correct me on that if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain that was the reason.

In my mind, attacking = gambling. Yes it gives the opportunity for more sacks - and lets face it - it's pretty hard to have less then what they had last year. But it may also expose the secondary more. I could see a lot of deep balls being completed. This is exactly why Williams had to "call off the dogs" last year - he didn't have the horses in the secondary to run the d he wanted to.

Yep, Wades system is a gambling one and the secondary will be exposed if the pressure doesn't get there. If the pressure does get there, then they are exposed to a lesser degree.

As I said earlier, I have no doubt that some big plays will be given up when the pressure doesn't get there. Last year the Cowboys gave up a number of big plays playing in BP's scheme. With a more attacking style, the defense should have more opportunities to generate big defensive plays in sacks and turnovers that can offset the plays they give up. We'll see how it goes.

TheFan

[TheFan]

Ellis is a kind of sore spot for many fans. It is my opinion, and I am definatly in the minority where Cowboy fans are concerned, that moving Ellis to OLB was a mistake. He did very well for us last year but lets face it, that whole move created his achillies injury. Could he have experience this at DE? Sure, but I suspect the injury was more a result of Ellis having to move around and do things that he has not been accustomed to most of his career. To me, the better move would have been to trade him 2 years ago. Ellis will always be best suited to a 43 DE IMO. Yeah, he was succesful in the transition but at what cost? The fact is that Ellis was the only real long time Vet on the defensive side of the ball. We need his leadership on the field and in the locker room. The Cowboys knew that he was under contract and for a very reasonable price. He was never going to be traded for those reasons. However, his trade value was very good two years ago. Now, it's probably poor because of the injury. I do hope Ellis can come back and be productive for us but I think it's unfortunate for him. Circumstances have not been kind to him and in truth, he was stupid to sign the contact he did when he resigned with us. He should have turned the screws to us and leveraged a nice contract that took care of him for years to come. He didn't but it just goes to show that nice guys do finish last. Unfortunate but true. That is my opnion of Ellis.

I actually liked the move with Ellis. I thought that the change potentially adds a productive year or two to his career. It was unfortunate that he got injured last year but that happens. Hopefully the reports about him are right and he will be back at 100% this year.

As far as his contract situation goes, Ellis opted to sign the contract so IMO he just needs to honor it and move on. He isn't getting paid peanuts and he could be in a worse situation.

TheFan

[ouvan59]

Canty is a guy who is long. He is not a physical freak of nature as far as quickness or flat out speed but he is extremely long armed. He gets to guys in much the same way Jim Jeffcoat used to.

You mean in theory, right?

[ABQCOWBOY]

I actually liked the move with Ellis. I thought that the change potentially adds a productive year or two to his career. It was unfortunate that he got injured last year but that happens. Hopefully the reports about him are right and he will be back at 100% this year.

As far as his contract situation goes, Ellis opted to sign the contract so IMO he just needs to honor it and move on. He isn't getting paid peanuts and he could be in a worse situation.

TheFan

I don't agree that he is being paid a good contract. He's being paid a good contract in terms of being injured and what his earning potential is right now but in reality, he's not being paid well for what he has produced. Ellis wanted a new contract last year before the injury. We promised him that we would talk about it after the season. The injury came and now, he's screwed. In truth, I don't see how he could be in much worse of a position outside of not being able to recover at all. As I said before, my opinion on Ellis is not popular among many Cowboys fans. I just don't look at it the way most fans do. I'd be interested to see what a team like Washington would pay for a bonified 43 DE like Ellis if he were healthy. I think the market value for a player of his quality, if he were not coming off an injury would be much higher then his current contract.