Lou Dobb's "U.S could Deport All Illegals"....

[Teller]

It is extremely difficult to legally immigrate to this country, especially if you are a low skill worker. In fact, it is virtually impossible. It has been pointed out many times, illegal immigrants don't act as drain on our system, they actually prop it up. Even the most die hard anti-immigrant economists acknowledge this.

Bull.

[Fergasun]

Ken,

The number of immigrants who become new citizens is 700,000. This doesn't include the number of children born to non-citizens on American soil (which is a scam). I think birth-right citizenship should only be given to those in the country legally, on green cards or long term visas. Not those on 2 month visas or those who entered the country illegally.

[Destino]

Destino is hispanic I believe...but don't let that stop you from claiming racism. :doh:

Indeed I am. I've stated my case on immigration a thousand time... there is a middle ground. We can have secure borders without mass deportation and screwing the economy.

But there is definately racism mixed in with this debate. Maybe I see it because I happen to be hispanic. Can you friggin imagine if the typical response to ANY discussion concerning blacks was to point out a stereotype? Everytime someone posted something about Jesse Jackson some jerk comes in to make a fried chicken joke?

Well that's what this is. You talk about hispanics and some dumb ass will make a "lawn mowing" joke within a minute. It gets old... so do people pretending there isn't a great deal of racism involved in this debate.

Many maybe most just want the laws enforced. But there is a very large percentage that simply don't like hispanics. You can tell by reading the crap they post but it's no use pointing it out. PC culture has made the racists real good at feigning insult.

[DjTj]

I was not aware of this.

People do not go through Ellis Island anymore?

I thought I just heard that we had over 2 million people legally added as citizens last year. Isn't this what my grandparents did?

Ellis Island is a museum now.

When your grandparents came to the United States, we had what was basically an open borders policy. You could get on a boat, you could go to Ellis Island (or Angel Island in San Francisco), and if you passed the health inspection, you became a legal immigrant.

Nowadays, legal immigration is only accessible via a few avenues designated by statute:

(1) family preference (you are related to a U.S. citizen)

(2) employment preference (you need a U.S. employer to sponsor you)

(3) asylum (you are being persecuted in your home country)

...there are also special exceptions and a very small lottery, but 99% of immigrants are in one of those three categories. Your grandparents probably wouldn't have been able to get in under today's laws.

[CrabR]

What great crime did they commit? Wanting to feed and provide for their family?

They came here illegally. Let them come here legally or not at all.

I have no problems with aliens/ immigrants. But i have a problem with "illegals", no matter what nationality

[Fergasun]

Heh. No one else was going to call out lucky...

For those who don't believe illegal employment/workers prop up our economy, please present some type of facts and make a case this is not true.

It is ambigious if they are a drain on government resources. It seems true that in areas where the ratio of legal:illegal is out of wack, this might be true (see Los Angeles), but that could be a by-product of ratio of rich:poor. There's nothing that conclusively says illegal immigrants are a net drain on the economy and many hidden factors (including health care and road impact) and benefits.

[Fergasun]

The issue I have is that I still don't trust the government to stop illegal immigration... even if there is a program or plan. It has to be wide enough that companies make a big stink about others using illegal labor, and it's frowned upon in the business community (which would be a 180 degree turnaround).

[TheMalcolmConnection]

What great crime did they commit? Wanting to feed and provide for their family?

So it's cool if I come into your house uninvited and take your stuff because my family needs it?

Illegal is illegal.

[DjTj]

Bull.

If that's bull, then it should be pretty easy for you to find one these immigrants that went through the simple process of immigration. I challenge you to find one unskilled worker who immigrated to the country legally from a foreign country but was not related to a U.S. Citizen.

(hint: there are less than 500 of them admitted each year.)

[luckydevil]

Bull.

Bull what. Just search through any of the numerous immigrant threads on this board. Numerous studies have been posted and the difficulty of the immigrant process as well.

As far the sig goes...............Is that supposed to represent some sort of gotcha moment? What can I say; I don't believe that the average American life is more important than the average Mexican life (or any other group). And it shouldn't be reflected in our laws.

[DjTj]

So it's cool if I come into your house uninvited and take your stuff because my family needs it?

It's not cool, but it's harder for me to get upset when it was my brother who invited you in (because he needed someone to put up drywall for him).

Illegal is illegal.

"Illegal" is complicated.

[Predicto]

Obviously no one has come out and typed "I am an open border advocate."

So I can't point out specific examples.

You are a lawyer correct?

I guess you win this round.

Way to come to the rescue of those on here that call Dobbs "Hitler-esque", 'nationalistic', 'xenophobic' and those that further accuse those against illegal immigration of subconsciously being driven by a dislike of brown skin.

I didn't say or imply any of those things, did I?

It seems to me that both sides in this particular debate tend to take simplistic positions that distort the actual views of those on the other side. I think we need to do a better job securing our borders, but I also think we need to recognize the economic realities that bring illegals here to work and find a way to make a workable system to accomodate those realities.

Does that make me a xenophobe or an open border advocate (since those appear to be the only two choices available)?

[luckydevil]

When your grandparents came to the United States, we had what was basically an open borders policy. You could get on a boat, you could go to Ellis Island (or Angel Island in San Francisco), and if you passed the health inspection, you became a legal immigrant.

It is important to note that wasn't the case for Asians, but for everybody else we did have an open borders policy. I would love to have an Ellis Island type policy again( for every group).

[MurrayH81]

If that's bull, then it should be pretty easy for you to find one these immigrants that went through the simple process of immigration. I challenge you to find one unskilled worker who immigrated to the country legally from a foreign country but was not related to a U.S. Citizen.

(hint: there are less than 500 of them admitted each year.)

Well I can find one. When I lived in West Virginia, my next door neighbor was an immigrant from Romania. He had been a conscripted soldier under the (then) communist regime who deserted and escaped (twice). He left home, family and everything behind. He made his way through several European countries before legally immigrating here. When he became a citizen, and had purchased a house through learning a trade and working hard, he applied to have his wife come. Now they are both citizens and have a family. The process does happen. There is hardly any knowledge or recognition of it because it is a normal accepted practice.

Illegal immigration (while certainly understandable from a human perspective) is ILLEGAL. When you break the law, and go before a judge/jury here, you don't tell the court, "Yes, I am guilty of robbing the bank, but I did it to make a better life for my family."

If anyone starts out anywhere (job, relationship, business. family) by breaking the law, how on earth can they think that good things will come of it? Yes, I wanted kids your honor, so I raped a woman at random. It will all work out don't worry, I am sure we will be a loving family in no time at all.

Yes, these examples are not exactly the same thing, but they are illustrative of the niave position people take on this issue.

[Predicto]

Well I can find one. When I lived in West Virginia, my next door neighbor was an immigrant from Romania. He had been a conscripted soldier under the (then) communist regime who deserted and escaped (twice). He left home, family and everything behind. He made his way through several European countries before legally immigrating here. When he became a citizen, and had purchased a house through learning a trade and working hard, he applied to have his wife come. Now they are both citizens and have a family. The process does happen. There is hardly any knowledge or recognition of it because it is a normal accepted practice.

Illegal immigration (while certainly understandable from a human perspective) is ILLEGAL. When you break the law, and go before a judge/jury here, you don't tell the court, "Yes, I am guilty of robbing the bank, but I did it to make a better life for my family."

If anyone starts out anywhere (job, relationship, business. family) by breaking the law, how on earth can they think that good things will come of it? Yes, I wanted kids your honor, so I raped a woman at random. It will all work out don't worry, I am sure we will be a loving family in no time at all.

Yes, these examples are not exactly the same thing, but they are illustrative of the niave position people take on this issue.

Yes, back during the Cold War the INS used to grease the skids for people who left communist countries. They could get legal entrance that others could not.

[Fergasun]

Yes, these examples are not exactly the same thing, but they are illustrative of the niave position people take on this issue.

I don't think anyone likes the fact that there are tons of illegal immigrants in this country, but we are recognizing the economic realities.

The time for you (and everyone else) to do something about illegal immigration was over 10 years ago. In 1994, California had passed proposition 187 to deny illegal immigrants social services. It passed with 58.8% of the vote, but a Federal Court overturned it.

Its constitutionality was immediately challenged by several lawsuits. On November 11, 1994, federal judge Matthew Byrne issued a temporary restraining order against it, on grounds that it exceeded state authority in the federal realm of immigration. The case worked its way through the courts. The multiple cases were consolidated and brought before judge Mariana Pfaelzer. In 1998, newly elected Governor Gray Davis (who had opposed the proposition) had the case brought before mediation. Following this, he dropped the appeals process before the courts, effectively killing the law.

Many people believe it would've held up in the Supreme Court... I'm not sure.

Basically the whole country has been asleep on this issue for the past 10 years, and felt it was a "border state" issue. I'm sure it made the national news, but no one really thought about the implications.

[DjTj]

Well I can find one. When I lived in West Virginia, my next door neighbor was an immigrant from Romania. He had been a conscripted soldier under the (then) communist regime who deserted and escaped (twice). He left home, family and everything behind. He made his way through several European countries before legally immigrating here. When he became a citizen, and had purchased a house through learning a trade and working hard, he applied to have his wife come. Now they are both citizens and have a family. The process does happen. There is hardly any knowledge or recognition of it because it is a normal accepted practice.

I guess I was more talking about recent immigrants, but there are large numbers of Vietnamese, Korean, and Eastern European immigrants that were legally admitted during the Cold War outside of the normal immigration laws.

Unless there is a special political reason like that or you are related to a citizen, an unskilled worker has no real way to get a green card.

[Ken]

Ellis Island is a museum now.

When your grandparents came to the United States, we had what was basically an open borders policy. You could get on a boat, you could go to Ellis Island (or Angel Island in San Francisco), and if you passed the health inspection, you became a legal immigrant.

Nowadays, legal immigration is only accessible via a few avenues designated by statute:

(1) family preference (you are related to a U.S. citizen)

(2) employment preference (you need a U.S. employer to sponsor you)

(3) asylum (you are being persecuted in your home country)

...there are also special exceptions and a very small lottery, but 99% of immigrants are in one of those three categories. Your grandparents probably wouldn't have been able to get in under today's laws.

Thanks for the information!

I will research this and it will impact my feelings on this issue.

[Fergasun]

Thanks for the information!

I will research this and it will impact my feelings on this issue.

Don't forget about the H-2 visas as well. This is a current guest worker program for low-skilled farm/construction/other low-skilled workers. However, they aren't classified as immigrants since they are not allowed to stay. I think there are currently less than 200,000 in the country or so. They can stay for 3 years (1 with 2 year extension) and come during the farming season (I think it's something like 9 months).

While the < 500 number from Dj is true, immigrants are only thought of as people who can legally stay here. I guess student visas would also fall under the category of legal foreigners in America.

We would tend to call these people immigrants, but by definition an immigrant is someone allowed to stay. I hope I'm right or else Dj is going to come back and smack me with some truth.

[Johnny Punani]

I don't want unskilled workers to have an easier time immigrating here. They would end up costing the rest of us money. The only reason why the resident lefties here want unskill labor here is because they would most likely be lefties themselves and that equals more power for their ideology in the country.

LOL @ the typical nationalism, fascism, racist BS crap. You are all so full of horse crap.

[luckydevil]

I don't want unskilled workers to have an easier time immigrating here. They would end up costing the rest of us money. The only reason why the resident lefties here want unskill labor here is because they would most likely be lefties themselves and that equals more power for their ideology in the country.

So who are the Marxists?

[Johnny Punani]

So who are the Marxists?

Who are the Nationalist, Racist, Fascists?

[luckydevil]

Who are the Nationalist, Racist, Fascists?

I didn't call anyone a racist or a fascist. Dobbs is the nationalist.

[sacase]

We don't need unskilled immigrants period. We need intelligent people who are going to contribute to society not be a drain on it.

I am all for a guest worker program, but that is it, you are a guest worker and you do not have the rights of a citizen and you must go home eventually.

People like to refer to Ellis Island, but times have changed alot we are no longer a budding nation that needs people, we are the world power that can be selective about who we take. To bad we can't kick a few people out....

[Johnny Punani]

I didn't call anyone a racist or a fascist. Dobbs is the nationalist.

Thanks Marxist.