For those of you who believe we're set at Dline...

[DixieFlatline]

Look, our D-line is not great. It could definitely stand to be improved. But it's not terrible. Carter is a pretty good player. Griffin is great when he is healthy. Golston showed some pretty good promise as a rookie. No team is perfect, and this is our weakness. We are going to have to deal with that.

Here is the one thing that's getting me through it. We were a very good defense a couple years ago. Was our DL good then? No, not really. It was exactly the same as it was last year, except with Wynn starting instead of Carter, and no Golston or Montgomery. So if you ask me, it was even worse. And we did improve our DBs and LBs greatly this offseason. So if Griff stays healthy, like he was back then, I see no reason why we cant have that same level of production. Does that make sense?

We will never be an ELITE defense with this defensive line. But there's no reason we can't be good. Hell, we have already PROVED that. Hopefully next offseason we can land a great DL and take the next step.

Agreed. We can be good, but not great it things work out. Heck, we haven't had a great DL since the days of Manley, Butz, and Mann.

[HEavyJumbo85]

For me I always thought that Griffin was the key to make our line special, not that its an orginal thought though, if you recall a couple of years ago when he was a beast it was him and Pierce who were arguably our best players.

Great minds

[TheLongshot]

And I wouldn't say any position on this team is "set". The staff is always looking for players to improve our roster. Course, some positions are harder to have drop-in replacements (like QB), or they are constrained by the cap as to what they can do (like releasing high priced players), but I do believe that the FO is out there looking for players to help out. So, I don't see Gibbs' statement as being the final word on the line. While they may feel comfortable with what they have, if some one comes available to improve things, they may feel more comfortable with that player in the fold.

Jason

[number twenty-eight]

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled about Okoye but I'm curious to see how he does and what kind of arc his career takes, being so young.

We don't have an ideal set of DL, but hopefully they can keep it straight for one more year. It is disappointing, but it seems to be a bitter pill type offseason, after borrowing so often from the future.

[SkinsWizCubsDukes]

Just read the rest of the message board...

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

Bringing in Landry actually upgraded our D-Line (stay with me here this is convoluted).

In 2004 Springs had 6 sacks. The DL was built to stop the run, and many of our QB pressures came from odd angles. The addition of Landry (who can cover extremely well for a safety) will allow GW to blitz his corners more frequently.

Moving Rocky to the starting lineup also improves our DL. When Carter emerged last season getting to the QB it was because he attacked ferouciously instead of sitting back and thinking. If Carter is let loose, the LB behind him has to be able to tackle. Rocky was one of ST tackle leaders and in his lone start got 10 tackles. Further, Rocky tends to put ball carriers on their back when he tackles them (something Highway 57 never did) This will allow Carter to play with a more reckless abandon and hopefully get more sacks.

Finally the addition of London Fletcher improves our DL. Presuming he still remembers GWs defense he should be able to ensure all the right calls are made from the mike. When Lemar was starting at MLB, it seemed we were frequently confused on D. Further Fletcher-Baker's size is a major asset. Though short he is thick. He will be able to navigate quickly and powerfully to make tackles. He has a tendency of putting a RB on his back when he tackles somebody (which Lemar doesn't do).

Finally the D-Line. We are okay there this year presuming a couple things happen. First, Kedrick Golston has to be working as hard as Joe Gibbs says he is. We need him to get up to 300+lbs. He is a very strong guy (33 reps of 225 at the combine last year) who gives a lot of effort, but sometimes an extra 10 lbs of mass is what makes the difference (especially towards the end of games when people are tired). Lets also not forget that Golston was more productive than most 1st and 2nd round rookie DTs generally are. If he is working the way he should this offseason he will likely be a big contributor next year (maybe his offseason work is what prompted Gibbs to not select DL).

Griffin needs to be healthy for this unit to excel. Big Joe, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn are all big run stuffing role players. None of them are game changers, but they are all very serviceable.

Andre Carter was an animal the end of last year. It is important to remember that he was forced to play OLB the two years prior to coming to Washington. That likely affected his skills. As he became more acclimated to his role at DE, he got better and better. There is no reason to believe he won't improve over last years production.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

im with you ridethewalrus, i agree with everything you said. lets just hope with the addition of all these corners and safties we will become blitzing machines again. i forgot what QB pressure looked like last year.

[HEavyJumbo85]

Bringing in Landry actually upgraded our D-Line (stay with me here this is convoluted).

In 2004 Springs had 6 sacks. The DL was built to stop the run, and many of our QB pressures came from odd angles. The addition of Landry (who can cover extremely well for a safety) will allow GW to blitz his corners more frequently.

Moving Rocky to the starting lineup also improves our DL. When Carter emerged last season getting to the QB it was because he attacked ferouciously instead of sitting back and thinking. If Carter is let loose, the LB behind him has to be able to tackle. Rocky was one of ST tackle leaders and in his lone start got 10 tackles. Further, Rocky tends to put ball carriers on their back when he tackles them (something Highway 57 never did) This will allow Carter to play with a more reckless abandon and hopefully get more sacks.

Finally the addition of London Fletcher improves our DL. Presuming he still remembers GWs defense he should be able to ensure all the right calls are made from the mike. When Lemar was starting at MLB, it seemed we were frequently confused on D. Further Fletcher-Baker's size is a major asset. Though short he is thick. He will be able to navigate quickly and powerfully to make tackles. He has a tendency of putting a RB on his back when he tackles somebody (which Lemar doesn't do).

Finally the D-Line. We are okay there this year presuming a couple things happen. First, Kedrick Golston has to be working as hard as Joe Gibbs says he is. We need him to get up to 300+lbs. He is a very strong guy (33 reps of 225 at the combine last year) who gives a lot of effort, but sometimes an extra 10 lbs of mass is what makes the difference (especially towards the end of games when people are tired). Lets also not forget that Golston was more productive than most 1st and 2nd round rookie DTs generally are. If he is working the way he should this offseason he will likely be a big contributor next year (maybe his offseason work is what prompted Gibbs to not select DL).

Griffin needs to be healthy for this unit to excel. Big Joe, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn are all big run stuffing role players. None of them are game changers, but they are all very serviceable.

Andre Carter was an animal the end of last year. It is important to remember that he was forced to play OLB the two years prior to coming to Washington. That likely affected his skills. As he became more acclimated to his role at DE, he got better and better. There is no reason to believe he won't improve over last years production.

I like the theory, but one problem is that Landry gets caught flat footed in coverage way too much and most scouts believe it is his greatest weakness. Our cover saftey will actually be Sean Taylor. The same theory still applies, it just means that Landry will play closer to the line and Taylor will play center field.

[skinsn24]

Great thread Blloyd.

It seems everyone is basically saying it all depends on Griffins health, which i believe it does. However, i dont know how healthy he can be anymore.

My bigger question to everyone is, do you guys realize Wynn, Daniels, and Big Joe will almost certaintly not be here in '08 either due to a cap cut, unproductiveness, age, or injury....we are going to have a major overhaul in '08, which might set us back because we failed to address it this year.

[HEavyJumbo85]

My bigger question to everyone is, do you guys realize Wynn, Daniels, and Big Joe will almost certaintly not be here in '08 either due to a cap cut, unproductiveness, age, or injury....we are going to have a major overhaul in '08, which might set us back because we failed to address it this year.

That's why we have a full draft

[dfbovey]

For those of you who say that Williams never relied on his line for a pass rush, that he always generated a pass rush through blitz packages... you're fooling yourselves into believing a lie. Look at the defenses he coached in Tennessee and with the Bills, more specifically go took at the production from the defensive line and how many sacks they had.

Our line was suspect even when the defense was ranked highly 2 and 3 years ago. The blitz packages covered up that weakness to a degree, but we lived and died by the blitz. Something we wouldn't have to do if our defensive line was strong.

This defense is built backwards.

[skinsn24]

ever heard of coverage sacks that helped us greatly in 2005. we had to cover for people's weaknesses last year.. Marshall is not a MLB and cant cover TEs.. warrick cant play run defense or any type of defense. Taylor had play the corners who had to play 10 yards off the ball

1. Am dont believe the williams system relys on coverage sacks (we blitz)

2. Coverage sacks should be the occasisonal bonus sack, the the usual way to get a sack.

3. I know marshal; is not an MLB but he better be able to cover as he is a WILL, where they are sussposed to cover. He is also undersized, so his advantage should come in the pass game.

4. Holdman did suck

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

My bigger question to everyone is, do you guys realize Wynn, Daniels, and Big Joe will almost certaintly not be here in '08 either due to a cap cut, unproductiveness, age, or injury....we are going to have a major overhaul in '08, which might set us back because we failed to address it this year.

At that point though Golston will hopefully have proved himself worthy of the starting sport. Griffin will only be 31. Carter will still be under 30. All we will be missing is one starting DE and some depth. If Montgomery pans out we will only need 2 bodies to take snaps. It won't be a major issue (presuming everythings goes according to plan).

Oh yeah...Wynn restructured so he may well be here for depth purposes.

[Skinsinparadise]

I like the theory, but one problem is that Landry gets caught flat footed in coverage way too much and most scouts believe it is his greatest weakness. Our cover saftey will actually be Sean Taylor. The same theory still applies, it just means that Landry will play closer to the line and Taylor will play center field.

The scouting reports on Landry are somewhat confusing. I've posted on a Landry thread 6 different scouting reports all touting to different degrees Landry being a complete safety some playing up coverage as his strength. But yeah I did also read what you said about Taylor being better at coverage but then again I read a report that conflicts with that which said coverage isn't Landry's niche but he's still better at it than Taylor. So call me confused about him.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

For those of you who say that Williams never relied on his line for a pass rush, that he always generated a pass rush through blitz packages... you're fooling yourselves into believing a lie. Look at the defenses he coached in Tennessee and with the Bills, more specifically go took at the production from the defensive line and how many sacks they had.

Our line was suspect even when the defense was ranked highly 2 and 3 years ago. The blitz packages covered up that weakness to a degree, but we lived and died by the blitz. Something we wouldn't have to do if our defensive line was strong.

This defense is built backwards.

i agree our d seems like its built backwards, but hes proven you can be successful with it. as much as id like to see us have a typical defense that brings pressure from the ends, if were gonna have an unorthodox scheme, ill support it as long as its productive (and because its the redskins )

[MrRoadRage]

Looking back to the past just a bit, I thought it was a huge mistake letting Pierce get away, especially when the Giants got him. There defense was good with him, and when he got hurt, their defense fell greatly. When we lost him we took a step back.

I always thought that if the d-line was great and could pressure the QB, then the secondary could be average and the d would get the job done. Without a good d-line, good receivers will get open against the best d-backs given enough time to do so. Seems to me that a defense should be built from the line first. Am I missing something here? We're building the secondary first.

[Art]

In the end, I believe this is why we didn't take, or need, a defensive lineman:

"For one I look at myself and always ask the question, “Am I getting better?” Yes. I know people get into the question about sacks. I think sacks in general is a team effort, not just a one man effort. There’s a right place and a right time with everybody. So I give credit to the other 10 guys I play with. That goes for anybody. I think what matters is I always ask the team how I’m doing. I always ask Gregg Williams who I respect, and Greg Blache, my D-line coach. There opinion means more to me than anybody."

That was from Andre Carter back in October here in our fan chat. This resonated with me because I'd talked to Carter on a couple of other occasions when he was struggling, and he stated what Daniels said in his e-mail to a fan recently and what Wynn said to the Post yesterday. That the defensive line did what it was asked to do and that's all it can do. Carter, in particular, felt he was somewhat limited in his individual performance by playing within the system.

The Friend article outlining the problems in the secondary told a story about a different unit. A fractured bunch, feeling they weren't getting the credit they deserved for our success. Being out of position. Playing outside the system. I think from a talent perspective we were weaker at backer last year than anywhere and strongest in the secondary. From a performance level, we were best up front and weakest behind.

So, while the line has talent upgrades available to it, it remains the spot most likely to do as they are asked and sacrifice for the team in the way they play. The transition to the future group will take place. You'll find a guy you are surprised about somewhere along the line. Like Salave'a. You'll draft someone or get a good, young FA somewhere, like Carter, who while not great, is a Top 10 pick who's had a nice career.

Our system requires selflessness out of every area, but especially the line. It's a system that is driven by great safety and linebacker play. There's a reason Williams' defense improved in Buffalo the moment he got a safety who could perform. His system requires control of the middle of the field. Fletcher and Landry help provide that.

[Skinz_4_life]

Has everyone forgotten what made our defense so strong two years ago??? it wasnt the the DLINE.... our Dline now is better than it was 2 years ago...... but what made it strong was our secondary!!!

It was mention all the time that it was because we had corners that could be left on an island that would allow for more exotic blitzes..... why are people so retarded on this board... compare our defense when we where in the top 5 to now its twice as better only flaw i see the the LB's which i believe we addressed... can some one pull up the stats on how many sacks where generated by the line compared to the rest of the team when we where in the top 5 i bet its almost the same.

dont forget gregs system relies on blitzes to work with a weak secondary we couldnt do it because we had to drop back into coverage and thats why we was gettin toasted..... our secondary was the problem not the Dline..... well our dline still sucks, their old and we shouldve at least drafted one Dlineman but it wont be a problem if are secondary holds up this year

[ibrahim]

ok, so weve argued for months back and forth whether or not were set at dline or not, and obviously our coaching staff as well as some of you think were fine there and its clear from the 0 players added to the dline in terms of FA or the draft. so heres what id like to know. im not going to argue in this thread (shocker), i just want those who feel that were ok to state why exactly we are fine at dline. im just here to listen because i already know why i felt like we werent, obviously a bunch of great coaches think differently than i do.

here are our current dline members, and their ages/sizes.

Andre Carter - DE - 27 - 265

Phillip Daniels - DE - 34 - 285

Demetric Evans - DE - 27 - 280

Jamaal Green - DE - 26 - 258

Joe Sykes - DE - 24 - 266

Renaldo Wynn - DE - 32 - 292

Lorenzo Alexander - DT - 23 - 300

Ryan Boschetti - DT - 25 - 305

Jared Clauss - DT - 26 - 290

Kedric Golston - DT - 23 - 292

Cornelius Griffin - DT - 30 - 300

Vaka Manupuna - DT - 24 - 300

Anthony Montgomry - DT - 23 - 312

Joe Salave'a - DT - 32 - 295

these are the members that we are relying on next year (currently) to bring us back to a great defense on our dline. its been stated and its clear williams relies much more on his LB/DB for his defense, and were looking pretty solid at both groups currently. i personally do not feel comfortable with this group on the line, some of you disagree, and thats cool. i wish i could feel better about this group but theres really no reason for me to. so id really like someones strong argument to make me feel better about this. heres your chance to make me a believer!! haha

To all those saying our FO is dumb for not drafting a d-lineman, I want you to answer this question. Would that list above be a whole lot better if it included a 5th, 6th or 7th rounder? Remember, last year we spent our 5th and 6th rounders on the DT position already.

And if you say we should have spent our 1st rounder on a DT, who exactly should we have drafted? Amobi Okoye? Why? Because he was an exceptional pick at #6, or just because he is 19, and that is just so cool?

I really believe that if we have a 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick, we would have selected a DT somewhere in there, but we didn't. I believe if there were good FA DTs out there, we would be all over them, but unfortunately there isn't. You say Kris Jenkins, I ask you if you know what the Panthers are asking in return.

At this point, while I am not ecstatic about the list above, I realise we improved the defense AS A WHOLE the best we could by selecting Landry, who is an exceptional safety, and more importantly, a great blitzer (did I hear someone say we should improve our pass rush?).

[phishisthegreatstuff]

how are we going to return to our defense of 2 years ago you ask? well its the same guys on the dline as 2 years ago so we should be good...

[TotalRecall]

If I remember correctly, we did pick up some defensive linemen from the CFL in Jan.- Feb. Don't remember their names though.

[NYSkinsfan82]

ok, so weve argued for months back and forth whether or not were set at dline or not, and obviously our coaching staff as well as some of you think were fine there and its clear from the 0 players added to the dline in terms of FA or the draft. so heres what id like to know. im not going to argue in this thread (shocker), i just want those who feel that were ok to state why exactly we are fine at dline. im just here to listen because i already know why i felt like we werent, obviously a bunch of great coaches think differently than i do.

here are our current dline members, and their ages/sizes.

Andre Carter - DE - 27 - 265

Phillip Daniels - DE - 34 - 285

Demetric Evans - DE - 27 - 280

Jamaal Green - DE - 26 - 258

Joe Sykes - DE - 24 - 266

Renaldo Wynn - DE - 32 - 292

Lorenzo Alexander - DT - 23 - 300

Ryan Boschetti - DT - 25 - 305

Jared Clauss - DT - 26 - 290

Kedric Golston - DT - 23 - 292

Cornelius Griffin - DT - 30 - 300

Vaka Manupuna - DT - 24 - 300

Anthony Montgomry - DT - 23 - 312

Joe Salave'a - DT - 32 - 295

these are the members that we are relying on next year (currently) to bring us back to a great defense on our dline. its been stated and its clear williams relies much more on his LB/DB for his defense, and were looking pretty solid at both groups currently. i personally do not feel comfortable with this group on the line, some of you disagree, and thats cool. i wish i could feel better about this group but theres really no reason for me to. so id really like someones strong argument to make me feel better about this. heres your chance to make me a believer!! haha

I look at the DL and see a lot of depth, and young players. I feel these guys will be good. A lot of youth in our DL core, ya they are not brand names like most people want to see. I think in time some of these guys will be great DLs.

DL that go in the first round turn into duds than superstars. I think with the limited draft picks the FO didn't want to waste a pick on a potential dud. Also we have more depth at DL then we did in our LB and DB department. I think we really needed to fill those spots more than any. The FO did just do that this draft.

[Forever21]

We will never be an ELITE defense with this defensive line. But there's no reason we can't be good. Hell, we have already PROVED that. Hopefully next offseason we can land a great DL and take the next step.

Absolutely.

This line has been damn good at many times.

It had 2 good years and one bad year by my count.

With how solid our LB's and Secondary should be next year all that our DL needs to be is good and our D should be able to be a top 10 defense or top 15 at worst.

[gkekoa]

ok, so weve argued for months back and forth whether or not were set at dline or not, and obviously our coaching staff as well as some of you think were fine there and its clear from the 0 players added to the dline in terms of FA or the draft. so heres what id like to know. im not going to argue in this thread (shocker), i just want those who feel that were ok to state why exactly we are fine at dline. im just here to listen because i already know why i felt like we werent, obviously a bunch of great coaches think differently than i do.

here are our current dline members, and their ages/sizes.

Andre Carter - DE - 27 - 265

Phillip Daniels - DE - 34 - 285

Demetric Evans - DE - 27 - 280

Jamaal Green - DE - 26 - 258

Joe Sykes - DE - 24 - 266

Renaldo Wynn - DE - 32 - 292

Lorenzo Alexander - DT - 23 - 300

Ryan Boschetti - DT - 25 - 305

Jared Clauss - DT - 26 - 290

Kedric Golston - DT - 23 - 292

Cornelius Griffin - DT - 30 - 300

Vaka Manupuna - DT - 24 - 300

Anthony Montgomry - DT - 23 - 312

Joe Salave'a - DT - 32 - 295

these are the members that we are relying on next year (currently) to bring us back to a great defense on our dline. its been stated and its clear williams relies much more on his LB/DB for his defense, and were looking pretty solid at both groups currently. i personally do not feel comfortable with this group on the line, some of you disagree, and thats cool. i wish i could feel better about this group but theres really no reason for me to. so id really like someones strong argument to make me feel better about this. heres your chance to make me a believer!! haha

This will make you feel better. It is pretty much the same offensive line we had two years ago as a top ten defense. The difference is we now have AC (who performed well at the end of last year) who is an obvious upgrade to what we had two years ago. Golston showed flashes last year. The most positive thing you should see with this defensive line is we now have a real MLB. Rocky should also get his chance this year. We can expect more blitz packages this year because our secondary has been sured up.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

How can you gauge what our Dline will be in the coming years? Griff and Joe are up there in age but you can't argue that they are not effective in this scheme when healthy, and that goes for Daniels too. He's older, but he can stop the run and get pressure if the line is healthy and working together. Daniles had 8 sacks in '05 and was banged up last season. Yes 3 of our starters are older, but it's no different than any other team really. We have Evans, Golston, Montgomery, Carter, and a couple others. They are young and have many years left in them. No one can predict what their role will be in the coming years. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it right now. We will be okay barring injury. The story is the same for every other team except that our "starters" are pretty old. We have a good mix of youth and vets in our rotation. It's more about the Dline rotation for me. I look at it on the whole. Whats the likeliness that we'll have three starters banged up nearly the entire year on our Dline? Not likely. We just need to stay healthy. I think everyone that buys into your philosophy with regard to age is just ignoring the successes of '05 '04 defenses as well as ignoring our injury plagued defense last year. Whatever floats your boat

HTTR