My Thoughts on Being a Fan

[Thinking Skins]

I've been watching people discuss the fans like myself who have become skepitcal (at the least) about the actions of our front office. People have stated things like, "well if you don't like the way the team is being run, then go find a new team to root for". This is such an illogical statement that I had to analyze it and show whats wrong with it.

First off, let me say that I believe that its more than the job of a fan, but the very definition of a fan to support the team when they're doing well, and to criticize them when they're doing poorly. What I realize though, is that this criticism often leads to statements like, "well if you criticize the Redskins, then you're against the team" (this reminds me of the BS republican argument "if you criticize the war, then you're against the soldiers, but thats another story), and "Joe Gibbs knows more about football than you could ever dream about. Trust in Gibbs", etc.

This last comment is the one I've been thinking about. And I was thinking about it in terms of school. Lets say that there are three sets of people, the faculty, the students, and the spectators. The faculty, thats like the coaches, Vinny, Dan, and Gibbs, well Gibbs is like the Dean. The students are the players, each season learning new lessons from the faculty to impliment on the field. And the spectators, those are the people like you and me who sit and watch the students perform.

Just like when your kid brings home bad grades, you don't know if the kid's just underperforming in class, or if the teacher doesn't know what he's doing, or a combination of other things that could have influenced this. But as a spectator, you see that your kid brought home bad grades, and you don't like it. So in order to change things, you can either criticize your child and demand that he perform better, you can criticize your child's teacher and demand that he teach better, or you can criticize a combination of things and just demand better outcomes. But you don't (or at least I hope you don't) just sit there and say, I've got faith that everything will be OK.

Thats the way I see the Redskins fans, the ones who say they're "staying loyal". We see the production on a weekly basis, and on a larger scale, a yearly basis. And the same mistakes are being made with regards to player personnel EVERY year (with the exception of Marty's year and 2005). So is it coincidental that those two years have been the best two years we've had in DC since Danny boy has owned the team (I'm only counting the seasons that he owned the team in the offseason before that season, so that first season under Norv doesn't count). In 2005, I was optimistic that Danny had learned his lesson. In 2006, I said I'd give him a chance cause at least he wasn't going after the 38 year old superstars. But after the class of busts that include Lloyd, Archie, Carter and Duckett all in one offseason, I'm left with no other option than to criticize the front office.

Now, when I criticize the front office, people always come back at me with "Danny wants to win, and thats enough for me". To me thats pure and utter BS. I'm not saying that the man doesn't want to win, but if he isn't taking the measurable steps to make that heppen, then him wanting to win is going to bring the same results as the little kid who wants a unicorn for her birthday, NADA. And just like a parent can see the way a teacher is teaching a class and say, "well, he isn't interested in teaching them the material, he just wants everybody to pass the class", a fan can look at the Redskins and say that "Danny doesn't want to win, he just wants to put a team of big named players on the field."

I know this is kinda long, but one last point. There were people who were criticizing us skeptical fans, saying that "there are teams like the Red Sox who hadn't won a world series in XXX years, imagine being a fan of them". To this I say, trust me, I have friends who are fans of the Red Sox and they are just as critical of their management as I am of the Redskins. It could be bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, nobody on base, and the Red Sox fans would still say, "we're going to find a way to lose this", and sure enough, they would.

Sorry if this is long, but I don't start topics too often any more, so I'm due.

[Om]

People have stated things like, "well if you don't like the way the team is being run, then go find a new team to root for". This is such an illogical statement that I had to analyze it and show whats wrong with it.

Has anyone ever actually said that?

Or is this another textbook case of ...

[Skins PR]

Has anyone ever actually said that?

Or is this another textbook case of ...

People say stuff like that. Not nearly as much on here as some other Redskins message boars but I've seen it.

[OVCChairman]

i think a lot of the people that say that are speakin more in regards to the people that throw the organization under the bus. saying the team stinks, that the whole organization is a waste, that they have a hard time rooting for them anymore....stuff like that...not just because of some critisism of the front office

[Om]

People say stuff like that. Not nearly as much on here as some other Redskins message boars but I've seen it.

On any board, particularly one this size, there are a handful of people who will write an incredibly dumb thing out of the blue, with no context or for no reason. I think most of the rest of the community generally recognizes those things for what they are though.

In this case, while I admit I could be wrong, I just think the OP really wanted to express his opinion about the FO and needed a vehicle to set it up.

[Art]

Considering you've never seen the sentiment you reference on this board, your entire post is idiotic in the extreme. What you HAVE seen is people you couldn't pick as Skins fan out of a lineup with Cowboy fans being told, "Hey, go root for someone else." A fan is, by nature, biased in favor of the team he likes.

I've been highly critical of the job Gibbs has done. The mistakes he's made distress me as so many are so unnecessary. His unwillingness to retain players who were crucial to the chemistry. His need to switch up the offense when things started to come together. His inability to communicate to the team that he IS actually approachable and it's not just him saying he is.

On his watch, you've seen the defensive players feel they don't get enough credit and start to pull away from his defensive staff. You've seen some good in player relations in the angst from a handful that has shown up after years of players running the ship to the coach running it has hit some of the guys harder than it should -- i.e. Arrington in particular.

Last season leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth because of how awful it was. Not just because we signed a bad batch of players for the most part, but because we did that, let another important guy to the team -- if not a great player -- go, changed the offense, starting from scratch, and lost a unified direction again. He's tried setting direction and come off that, which is both his greatest strength -- adaptability -- and a potential weakness.

Marty's offseason, as an example, was a coach setting a path that was, frankly, stupid. Cutting Larry Centers because he wore a hat into a meeting is petty and disgusting. Leaving $30 million on the table in allocated budget and instead putting a far worse product on the field than was required was questionable personnel leadership. Ripping up Jeff George's original contract signed in 2000 -- one that had a $2 million bonus and veteran base money for two years -- to make it a bigger bonus by pulling in salary money and making it a bonus and THEN cutting him was idiotic. Running a team out on the field that couldn't play offense or defense was devestating.

All of it was done to change the culture. He had a plan. In time, it might have worked just as in time, it might have had him run out of town by people tired of working with him, as you saw with THAT team who would not have played for him again. In any case, Marty's strength of direction would have largely remained in tact. He's intractable in those ways.

Gibbs has tried, at various times, to set some similar paths. Offering a lighter training camp for more team volunteer workouts together where the staff could keep them in meetings all day. Early on setting a path where the "best" player at a position on the roster set the cap price for all others, leaving it difficult to retain Smoot and Pierce. Gibbs tinkers and tries many things. It's always been why he has won with different QBs, different running backs and different offensive lines where no one else has had the same success.

The program, with Gibbs, is never the same. It is always catered to his people and this is why the trust in Gibbs sentiment exists still, despite having real reason to doubt he can recapture it. In the end, for the critique I've offered on the performance he's led us to, most fans here would consider me an optimist and a homer. Meaning, one can convey critique without appearing to be a Cowboy fan. If you can too, you'll probably find people thinking you're pretty smart. If you can't, well, you probably will find people questioning whether you're actually a fan.

It's not hard.

[HailSkinz1]

Honestly, I don't really care what fans here think about me as a fan. I know how deep my passion for the team goes. In fact, that very same passion is what causes me to lash out about our team from time to time. Maybe it's because I've been lucky enough to witness the glory days, but the way things are run these days sometimes makes me sick. The contrast is stark.

I saw what it took for the Redskins to develop a decade of champions, and it's nothing like what I see happening now. You could see, feel, hear, taste, and watch the team in the early 80s grow into the near dynasty it did - much like we just experienced with the Patriots recently. You could see what they were doing was going to pay off.

This team seems to live year to year. That's not what we did back then and it's not what great teams do now. If someone wants to think that makes me less of a fan, so be it. I'll always be a passionate Redskins fan and will criticize them when I feel it's warranted, if nothing else than to release my own frustration.

What I don't get is how fans can just sit back and accept the futility we see today and say those who want to win are not fans.

And yes, I've seen those posts that tell us to choose a different team if we don't like what our team is doing. Utter nonsense.

Hail,

H

[kramdizzle]

well said Art

[Thinking Skins]

Has anyone ever actually said that?

Or is this another textbook case of ...

All you've got to do is go to another of the threads and scroll through, you'll find quite a few of them. Here's one of the ones that got on my nerve.

:doh: :shhh: :insane: , whatever dude go root for another team then.

It was in the thread talking about how the skins will do well next year. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3699176

[Thinking Skins]

Considering you've never seen the sentiment you reference on this board, your entire post is idiotic in the extreme. What you HAVE seen is people you couldn't pick as Skins fan out of a lineup with Cowboy fans being told, "Hey, go root for someone else." A fan is, by nature, biased in favor of the team he likes.

Art, I've valued your opinion for quite a while, but how do you know what I've seen on this board? I've seen threads started by MRMADD where he analyzed the team's median salary and was told these comments. I've seen threads where the "old guys" try to pick on the "young guys" saying that all the complaints were coming from the young guys, but we didn't know enough to complain. I could have posted links to all the comments that I referenced, but I chose not to. If you don't believe me, then you can do a search, or scroll through some of these threads and you'll see these same comments being repeated.

So instead of ignoring the issue I raised, or trying to dismiss it as too extreme to deserve a response, why not just address the issue I raised? I'm not talking about Redskins fans who come here and say mean stuff about the redskins and don't want to talk about it. I'm talking about fans like myself who have been fans all their lives, but can't stand watching what the team is doing. Like I said in my original thread, I don't know everything about football, but I can still analyze the game based on the things I know about it, say that I don't see the team being run well.

You say that a fan by nature is biased in favor of the team he likes. Tell me this, when you found out about Dexter Manley's problems back in the day, were you just a "fan" of the team and say that its OK as long as the team wins, or were you concerned about Dexter and wondering if the team was doing what's best for him?

Even a fan has to use logic and reasoning. We're working in an incomplete system of information, but we're still going to form conclusions one way or the other. I'm a guy who's rooting for this team to do well, but I feel like its all in vein because we had the village idiot running our team.

[Thinking Skins]

On any board, particularly one this size, there are a handful of people who will write an incredibly dumb thing out of the blue, with no context or for no reason. I think most of the rest of the community generally recognizes those things for what they are though.

In this case, while I admit I could be wrong, I just think the OP really wanted to express his opinion about the FO and needed a vehicle to set it up.

But Om, its not the waterboys that irk me. Its the guys with two and three thousand posts coming on here talking about who is and who is not a fan, and what a fan should or should not do. People act like being a fan means I've got to be baptized in the Redskins. Even religious people ask questions. And I guess right now, you can call me the Doubting Thomas of the Redskins Fan Base.

[Om]

All you've got to do is go to another of the threads and scroll through, you'll find quite a few of them. Here's one of the ones that got on my nerve.

It was in the thread talking about how the skins will do well next year. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3699176

Interesting. While that's not necessarily the greatest or most original reply/comeback ever, I note you didn't show the post it was in response to:

All you homers are in denial ... the Skins are a bottom feeder in the NFL ... they have some talent ... but also alot of holes and lousy coaching (especially Gibbs) ... they rank with the other proverbials ... the Cards and the Lions ... 2005 was a fluke and gave everyone a boner. They need a new aggresisve coach and philosophy ... a great QB and fabulous receivers ... to set up the occassional run ... not the other way ... only then will they become competitive.

It would seem you're more offended by someone taking exception to this kind of nonsense than the nonsense itself.

[Om]

But Om, its not the waterboys that irk me. Its the guys with two and three thousand posts coming on here talking about who is and who is not a fan, and what a fan should or should not do. People act like being a fan means I've got to be baptized in the Redskins. Even religious people ask questions. And I guess right now, you can call me the Doubting Thomas of the Redskins Fan Base.

I could care less how many posts a person has. I care about what they say.

And since you seem to have missed it ... I'll note the irony of you taking issue with how other fans make sweeping statements about those fans who don't happen to agree with their stance on the team and say so.

[InsaneBoost]

Art > All .

[TheLongshot]

There are times that I do question why some people on this board are still fans of the team, when they seem to hate every way the team is run. By now, we all know about Snyder and we know how he likes to organize his front office. To sit around and hope that he will change the fundamental way he runs things is naive.

If you are a guy who thinks Snyder is all about the money and doesn't care if he puts a good product on the field, I am going to question why you are still a fan. I mean, if nothing Snyder does is going to amount to anything, why bother? It is a reason why I'm not an Orioles fan anymore, because that's pretty much how I felt about Peter Angelos. When in your own mind you don't believe ownership is doing what it can to win, I am going to call you out.

But, there aren't many people who fit that description. Most of us do believe that the ownership is trying to build a winner, just that they are not doing a very good job of it. For that, I won't question whether or not you are a fan. Even I have been critical of some moves the FO has made. There are times, tho, that the oppressive negativeism on this board does get to me, and I need to fight the good fight, because I do believe that we are at least on the right path, even if it is rocky right now.

Jason

[CallMeGreen]

This last comment is the one I've been thinking about. And I was thinking about it in terms of school. Lets say that there are three sets of people, the faculty, the students, and the spectators. The faculty, thats like the coaches, Vinny, Dan, and Gibbs, well Gibbs is like the Dean. The students are the players, each season learning new lessons from the faculty to impliment on the field. And the spectators, those are the people like you and me who sit and watch the students perform.

Just like when your kid brings home bad grades, you don't know if the kid's just underperforming in class, or if the teacher doesn't know what he's doing, or a combination of other things that could have influenced this. But as a spectator, you see that your kid brought home bad grades, and you don't like it. So in order to change things, you can either criticize your child and demand that he perform better, you can criticize your child's teacher and demand that he teach better, or you can criticize a combination of things and just demand better outcomes. But you don't (or at least I hope you don't) just sit there and say, I've got faith that everything will be OK.

Please prepare yourself for a long-winded reply.

I basically like the three-part analogy about the faculty, students and spectators. Putting the fans into the spectators slot seems fair.

The problem with carrying that analogy to parents also being spectators is because despite similarities, they're not identical.

Spectators have limited control of the outcome, wheras the students, or participators are usually fully engaged. Parents are more than spectators because they often have avenues in which they can introduce changes to possibly improve, or even worsen, the problem at hand.

To affect teachers, parents can schedule conferences, they can write letters to a school board, they can lobby their elected officials and they can even introduce legal action if things get too far out of hand. Instances occur where parents cause changes to happen. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

To affect students in a positive way, parents can invoke punishment, lead by example, arrange tutoring assistance, cancel after school activities and many other things to change the actions of a student.

But sometimes, after evaluating the existing conditions (assuming you agree with the approach being used), you very well might sit back and give things some time to work. That's a move of faith right there.

As spectators, fans don't quite carry the same clout. Well, they could try to organize and stop attending games, boycott the purchase of team apparel and other large-scale efforts in order to get noticed. Practically speaking it's not comparable and typically doesn't produce much in the way of results.

But in terms of the "professional" students, that is the players, the fans have very little recourse to evoke improvement from them. Sure you can cheer and boo as you see fit, but it's not like you can schedule a meeting with Jason Campbell and threaten to ground him after each interception.

So the bigger difference between parents and fans is that fans have far less direct control of the situation at hand. Parenting is far from a spectator-only process. Without going too far off-track, "standing around and watching" is probably something that too many parents do. But parents aren't just into raising kids for the entertainment value. Fans are spectators for pretty much that reason. It's an escape from work, an escape from parenting, an escape from daily stressful events.

Having said all that, fans do have some choices. They can observe, hope for the best, jump on or off the bandwagon, sell or buy game tickets, turn the TV on or off or they can come on this website and say their piece. They can also sit by quietly or be vocal opinionists. All are fair expressions of fandom. Strictly speaking for myself however, vocal opinions carry more weight with me if they're well thought out and offer constructive solutions. Otherwise, it's just blowing smoke (also allowed) and something I often ignore.

Considering you've never seen the sentiment you reference on this board, your entire post is idiotic in the extreme.

At the risk of pulling on Superman's cape, I think Art is being too harsh in this one statement.

So here's where being a spectator and a parent reconverge. Telling someone to take their support elsewhere isn't my first line of defense. If a person spewing criticism says they're fed up, I look at it as they just need some consoling, or perhaps some modest re-educating. If you have kids going through trouble, I don't think you're going to give up on them. Likewise with other fans. Fans need support from each other like the team (faculty and students alike) need support from us. That doesn't necessarily mean you're only going to tell them they're always fabulous, especially when they're not. But you certainly shouldn't give up on them.

[Thinking Skins]

Please prepare yourself for a long-winded reply.

I basically like the three-part analogy about the faculty, students and spectators. Putting the fans into the spectators slot seems fair.

The problem with carrying that analogy to parents also being spectators is because despite similarities, they're not identical.

Spectators have limited control of the outcome, wheras the students, or participators are usually fully engaged. Parents are more than spectators because they often have avenues in which they can introduce changes to possibly improve, or even worsen, the problem at hand.

To affect teachers, parents can schedule conferences, they can write letters to a school board, they can lobby their elected officials and they can even introduce legal action if things get too far out of hand. Instances occur where parents cause changes to happen. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

To affect students in a positive way, parents can invoke punishment, lead by example, arrange tutoring assistance, cancel after school activities and many other things to change the actions of a student.

But sometimes, after evaluating the existing conditions (assuming you agree with the approach being used), you very well might sit back and give things some time to work. That's a move of faith right there.

As spectators, fans don't quite carry the same clout. Well, they could try to organize and stop attending games, boycott the purchase of team apparel and other large-scale efforts in order to get noticed. Practically speaking it's not comparable and typically doesn't produce much in the way of results.

But in terms of the "professional" students, that is the players, the fans have very little recourse to evoke improvement from them. Sure you can cheer and boo as you see fit, but it's not like you can schedule a meeting with Jason Campbell and threaten to ground him after each interception.

So the bigger difference between parents and fans is that fans have far less direct control of the situation at hand. Parenting is far from a spectator-only process. Without going too far off-track, "standing around and watching" is probably something that too many parents do. But parents aren't just into raising kids for the entertainment value. Fans are spectators for pretty much that reason. It's an escape from work, an escape from parenting, an escape from daily stressful events.

Having said all that, fans do have some choices. They can observe, hope for the best, jump on or off the bandwagon, sell or buy game tickets, turn the TV on or off or they can come on this website and say their piece. They can also sit by quietly or be vocal opinionists. All are fair expressions of fandom. Strictly speaking for myself however, vocal opinions carry more weight with me if they're well thought out and offer constructive solutions. Otherwise, it's just blowing smoke (also allowed) and something I often ignore.

At the risk of pulling on Superman's cape, I think Art is being too harsh in this one statement.

So here's where being a spectator and a parent reconverge. Telling someone to take their support elsewhere isn't my first line of defense. If a person spewing criticism says they're fed up, I look at it as they just need some consoling, or perhaps some modest re-educating. If you have kids going through trouble, I don't think you're going to give up on them. Likewise with other fans. Fans need support from each other like the team (faculty and students alike) need support from us. That doesn't necessarily mean you're only going to tell them they're always fabulous, especially when they're not. But you certainly shouldn't give up on them.

I appreciate this response. Maybe I should have stuck with the fans being spectators. But the analogy is still the same. If I (a non parent) know a student who goes to Cardozo and isn't getting good grades, the question becomes do I say that the student is underperforming, that the school system is flawed, that everybody is to blame? Thats what we as fans do. Some of us criticized Lavar; some of us criticized Linsey; some of us criticized Williams; and some of us even criticized the almighty Gibbs. That doesn't make any of us any less of a fan. And just like me knowing a student at Cardozo who is getting a 1.0 GPA doesn't mean I'm going to stop hoping that students do well in DC public schools, but it does give me a reason to voice criticism.

I look at the actions of our front office over the past few years, and at first everybody blamed Snyder. Then Snyder said, "I'm hiring Gibbs. Gibbs is in charge". So people here got mad at those who continued to blame Snyder, saying that he was just a spectator (which according to JLC and the Briggs trade rumors, is false). Then when we tried to blame Gibbs, people acted like we were the anti-Christ for talking negatively about Gibbs. I haven't seen too much criticism thrown at those who cann Vinny names though. But now, I'm not even trying to say who's to blame. We have a three headed monster, and together they're making bad decisions.

[Thinking Skins]

I could care less how many posts a person has. I care about what they say.

And since you seem to have missed it ... I'll note the irony of you taking issue with how other fans make sweeping statements about those fans who don't happen to agree with their stance on the team and say so.

:laugh:

funny.

I just felt like defending those fans who I agree with.

[NickGiaquinto1]

Man, you guys have allot of time on your hands.

BTW - it is soooo lame when someone says you are not a real fan because of this, or that.... those types are pinheads. If you are not a "real" fan you wouldnt be on the Redskins website. Grow up.

[LoyalSkinsFan]

Fans come in all shapes and sizes. Some are fat, some are skinny....some tall, some short.....some handsome, some butt-ugly.....some yell and scream, some sit and stare.....some paint themselves in burgundy and gold while others sit bundled up in their own, private, Redskin hell.

Our opinions and manner of dealing with stress, rejection and disappointment are also just as diverse. Age and societal influence also play a strong role in how we deal with things....football related or not.

But....

I have to admit, as I started out reading the school analogy that was made I found myself thinking how rather insightful it was....but then, by the end of the post, I'd realized that it really doesn't apply here. On the surface, Thinking guy, you make some good points but underneath there is a definite disconnect. There are far too many factors involved in football to make so simple an analogy. Students and how parents deal with them vary from family to family...and, in football, salary caps and unforeseen events (such as injuries) play a much greater role in outcome than similar things would in a student's performance in school. At least on an equally consistent basis.

We, as fans, really have no say in this matter of how the Redskins perform. They're gonna do what they're gonna do. As someone said, it's not like we can call up the QB and meet over breakfast to discuss a seven step drop versus a five step. And, while I'd LOVE to chat up offensive sets with Joe Gibbs over a nice glass of Pinot, it's probably never gonna happen. When I'm dead and gone, the team will continue to play each season and I - very simply - won't be there to watch (which makes me sad). The "loss of me" and my support will amount to just one dark Christmas light on a century long strand of lights....and, unlike the strands that I seem to always buy and get frustrated with, with one light out the rest of THIS strand WILL actually continue to burn.

In the end, all we as fans really have is our opinions. And I choose to believe that they do really matter..whether Joe Gibbs ever hears them or not. Many, like me, will continue to support the team thru thick and thin no matter what the team does or doesn't accomplish. I'm not blindly throwing my sense to the wind, but rather picking and choosing where the problems may lie and at who or whom my criticisms may be best directed. I would wish that others would follow that path. Some, unlike me, may feel that their support would be best given elsewhere....and, to them, I would say to have at it, guys. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Prior to each season I firmly believe that THIS could be our year. In a league of such parity and of such a small degree of difference between success and failure..well...it really COULD be.

And I, for one, am really looking forward to it.

HTTR

[Califan007 The Constipated]

A fan who criticizes the team and the FO is no big deal to anyone here.

A fan who constantly beats the negativity drum, choosing to diminish (if not overlook entirely) the positives of the team and the FO, is irritating, and will be questioned about what keeps them being a fan.

A fan who not only talks about the team and the FO in a derisive manner, but also ridicules other fans who remain optimistic, is little more than a troll and comes close to resembling a fan of the rival NFC teams.

That last group is extremely small, but they do exist on here. They're the ones who have their fan status questioned--and deserve to have it questioned--as well as are told to "go find another team to root for".

[skinsn24]

Has anyone ever actually said that?

Or is this another textbook case of ...

OM, I would suggest that you go and read this thread, but i think you already have because you were invovled in another thread, where this one was brought up.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166559

A fan said something negative (which turned out to be very true) here are some responces:

"MOVE BACK TO DALLAS JACKASS"

"How about the door?~Bang"

"Someone please show this guy the door."

"when we win our 8th game somone ban this chicken little scum"

[skinsn24]

Considering you've never seen the sentiment you reference on this board, your entire post is idiotic in the extreme. What you HAVE seen is people you couldn't pick as Skins fan out of a lineup with Cowboy fans being told, "Hey, go root for someone else." A fan is, by nature, biased in favor of the team he likes.

Art, i suggest you go read this thread:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/...ad.php?t=166559

A fan said something negative (which turned out to be very true) here are some responces:

"MOVE BACK TO DALLAS JACKASS"

"How about the door?~Bang"

"Someone please show this guy the door."

"when we win our 8th game somone ban this chicken little scum"

Now some of those posters "you couldnt pick out of a lineup with cowboys fans" but i think others you hold in pretty high regard.

Maybe Thinking Skins had not seen the attacks personally but others who have voiced negative opinions have def been attacked and told to leave.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

OM, I would suggest that you go and read this thread, but i think you already have because you were invovled in another thread, where this one was brought up.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166559

A fan said something negative (which turned out to be very true) here are some responces:

"MOVE BACK TO DALLAS JACKASS"

"How about the door?~Bang"

"Someone please show this guy the door."

"when we win our 8th game somone ban this chicken little scum"

And here's a post from that thread which puts the responses you quoted in a more proper context and perspective:

"i think one of the reasons you are being ridiculed is that you are trying so hard to get us to be pessimistic with you.

you are saying things like WE need to face it.

the sooner WE realize that we stink the better we will all be.

you are also making some pretty outrageous predictions based on some preseason games like.

look at our offseason additions underachieve, who will be in the probowl the next three years?

WE all know T.O. is going to be better than our two wide reciver additions.

WE all know darren howard is better than andre carter.

the fact is we dont all know this. you think it. you are entitled to your opinion but the harder you try to push it onto us the more you will be ridiculed."

[skinsn24]

And here's a post from that thread which puts the responses you quoted in a more proper context and perspective:

"i think one of the reasons you are being ridiculed is that you are trying so hard to get us to be pessimistic with you.

you are saying things like WE need to face it.

the sooner WE realize that we stink the better we will all be.

you are also making some pretty outrageous predictions based on some preseason games like.

look at our offseason additions underachieve, who will be in the probowl the next three years?

WE all know T.O. is going to be better than our two wide reciver additions.

WE all know darren howard is better than andre carter.

the fact is we dont all know this. you think it. you are entitled to your opinion but the harder you try to push it onto us the more you will be ridiculed."

Yea that is true, but what the dude said was almost 100% dead on correct. We all should have agreeded with him. Do you really beleive if the We's had been replaced with I, people would not have bashed him? I doubt it

Edit: that actually doesnt help with the context at all. That was one person giving a possible reason why people were upset. It wasnt said by all the negative posters.