Redskins Lunch About to Discuss Briggs: 12:45

[angel2]

Snyder is the only reason this trade is even being discussed. He has a close relationship with Rosenagent.

You are so correct on this.

I was one of those dear fans who never mention a discouraging word against DS, but this latest "wanta play GM" move is just not an intelligent strategy by Snyder.

I know it's his team and he can do whatever he wants with it. But, as a fan, I too have a choice.

The collective GM committee, with the exception of Dan, was not for this deal. But because he pays the bills they have to sound and look as if it was a consideration by all members of the GM committee.

Please don't include Gibbs, other coaches, and certainly not Vinny, wanting to make this bone headed deal. :silly:

[MrJL]

correction, can't make new threads!!! The board nazi's have me in "no new thead jail"! YEAH!!!

What's that about? I've got the same problem, I don't know how to fix it and it pisses me off.

[Dana87]

If Briggs was a DE then that would be fine. The problem is no one here thinks LB is enough of a need to do this. If the Bears were offering Dick Butkus in his prime it would still be a bad idea.

DL is that much of a need that taking the risk is justified.

I heard the same thing when we drafted...

Shuler

Westbrook

Gardner

They were also needs.

[skinsn24]

I heard the same thing when we drafted...

Shuler

Westbrook

Gardner

They were also needs.

Dana you seem very angery in this thread. I actually agree with alot of your points and didnt dislike the possibility of the trade.

However, what you say above makes no sense. They were all needs and that position should have been drafted all 3 times. The problem was the redskins took the wrong players.

WR was a need when Gardner was drafted, we mis-scouted the WR position though. You couldnt say "Gardner" if it had been Chad Johnson

[Uno Mas]

I'm afraid you just made yourself the poster boy for having the media give you your opinion. Have you heard ANYONE in the Redskins coaching staff say they have given up on Rocky. No you haven't, but you have heard it from some local mediots haven't you. Again, and I will say slower for those of you who still have your ears pressed to the radio waiting for your next opinion...

Our starting Linebackers will all be 30 or older at the start of the season. Rocky's time will come soon enough he is a very good young talent. As far as using two second round picks for him last year was a reach because we were set on drafting need over value, just like most of you want to do this year, and Rocky would have been gone by our pick so we moved up.

And as far as Gibbs and company having to go. Do me a favor learn a 10th of what any of our coaches know and then tell me who should go.

As a matter of fact, I havent heard this topic being discussed anywhere, atleast the topic of 'us giving up on RM'. Please explain to me how trading for Briggs would not be giving up on RM! Are we switching to a 34 defense? Doubt it. 30 years old is not old for a linebacker, BTW. Do you wanna watch our second rounder ride the pine for another 4 years? I know I dont. Whatever that nonsense is youre talking about moving up to draft Rocky, it doesnt change the fact that we basicly used two picks on him, to let him be a backup, if indeed this trade were to go through. So, my suggestion to you is if you dont pull your head out of Gibbs' ass, youre going to suffocate! Good day.

[Dana87]

Dana you seem very angery in this thread. I actually agree with alot of your points and didnt dislike the possibility of the trade.

However, what you say above makes no sense. They were all needs and that position should have been drafted all 3 times. The problem was the redskins took the wrong players.

WR was a need when Gardner was drafted, we mis-scouted the WR position though. You couldnt say "Gardner" if it had been Chad Johnson

You’re right on both counts. First your second point, yes if the Skins had drafted Chad Johnson then Gardner would not be part of my example. But the Redskins drafted the player most of the experts said they should. It was not the fault of their scouting because he was the guy everyone on draft day was hyping at our pick he had the size he had the speed he had all the measurable, much like Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Alan Branch. The problem is they are all unproven players. The same can be said for Westbrook and Shuler. Hell I remember the Redskins being praised for all 3 of those picks. Putting the blame on the scouting or the FO is a cop out. Those mistakes our fault or not is exactly why the Briggs deal is so attractive to Gibbs and Williams, not Snyder, He is a 2 time Pro Bowler and we still get a 1st round pick #31. By the way Chad Johnson was pick #36 and Gardner was pick #15.

Now your first point, yes I am angry when I come to this board and instead of getting to have intelligent discussions with Redskins fans I have to sift through so much negativity brought about in my opinion by the media that bashes every move the Skins make because of their own agenda, that being they dislike Snyder. But the worst part is that I see it turning good Redskins fans into mindless drones spewing out what they have just been told, not bothering to look into the situation and evaluate it for themselves. For example the report that we went to see The LSU QB. Half this board was talking about no longer being Redskins fan because some idiot that has an axe to grind said we were, and here is the punch line, going to trade pick #6 and Jason Campbell for the #1 pick so that we could select JaMarcus Russell.

[Skinsinparadise]

Lance Briggs

Career Statistics

Year Tackles

2006 134 (Pro Bowl)

2005 107 (Pro Bowl) (All Pro)

2004 125 (Pro Bowl Alternate)

2003 78

Obviously none of the Defensive players in the draft can claim they are going to be any of the above. I can however say that the guy I want already is. Not really that hard.

Really? No really that hard, huh. So past performance as a player is a given when they switch teams and start anew with a new rich FA contract. If so, it should revolutionalize the FA market no more worries about whether the player will be the same stud when he switches teams. We can ignore all the examples where players didn't perform on par as their past performance with prior teams -- clearly we where all dreaming those scenarios.

Look if I believed that Briggs would be the SAME stat player on the Skins as he was with the Bears I'd be with you. Forgot my opinion for a second, am sure you've read the articles many of which have been posted on this site doubting whether Briggs would be the same player here -- based on scheme, different personel, or whether he will be as motivated after a rich contract. It's not an out of left field theory to doubt whether a FA is going to be the same player when he switches teams.

[Dana87]

As a matter of fact, I havent heard this topic being discussed anywhere, atleast the topic of 'us giving up on RM'. Please explain to me how trading for Briggs would not be giving up on RM! Are we switching to a 34 defense? Doubt it. 30 years old is not old for a linebacker, BTW. Do you wanna watch our second rounder ride the pine for another 4 years? I know I dont. Whatever that nonsense is youre talking about moving up to draft Rocky, it doesnt change the fact that we basicly used two picks on him, to let him be a backup, if indeed this trade were to go through. So, my suggestion to you is if you dont pull your head out of Gibbs' ass, youre going to suffocate! Good day.

Spoken like someone that hasn't watched a Greg Williams defense, or at least pay attention. With or without Briggs Rocky will get his snaps if he proves himself. Williams has a variety of packages for Rocky to work his way into. And I'm sorry if you don't understand the circumstances of our trade up last year to get Rocky. Here's an idea do a little research of your own and then when you’re a little more knowledgeable about what you’re talking about get back to me. Until then you’re frankly a waist of time. :doh:

And there were more than one thread on the subject so the mods had to merge the thread title is... Since The Skins Have Given Up On Mcintosh....(Merged) ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )

[Dana87]

Really? No really that hard, huh. So past performance as a player is a given when they switch teams and start anew with a new rich FA contract. If so, it should revolutionalize the FA market no more worries about whether the player will be the same stud when he switches teams. We can ignore all the examples where players didn't perform on par as their past performance with prior teams -- clearly we where all dreaming those scenarios.

Look if I believed that Briggs would be the SAME stat player on the Skins as he was with the Bears I'd be with you. Forgot my opinion for a second, am sure you've read the articles many of which have been posted on this site doubting whether Briggs would be the same player here -- based on scheme, different personel, or whether he will be as motivated after a rich contract. It's not an out of left field theory to doubt whether a FA is going to be the same player when he switches teams.

Your point is a valid one, but I don't remember Guarantying that he would have the same numbers or stats, only that he would be a safer and in my opinion better pick at #6 especially if you factor in the 31st pick. As far as articles written by sports writers please your talking to the wrong guy, it's my opinion most of them don't know the first thing about building a franchise or what players can or can't do.

[skinsn24]

You’re right on both counts. First your second point, yes if the Skins had drafted Chad Johnson then Gardner would not be part of my example. But the Redskins drafted the player most of the experts said they should. It was not the fault of their scouting because he was the guy everyone on draft day was hyping at our pick he had the size he had the speed he had all the measurable, much like Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Alan Branch.

There were many choices at WR at the time we drafted RG, granted it was a mistake by Marty, but its on our topic of conversation on the draft. Just because "the experts" which in this case was the media (or wherever you were reading) and most of them thought Rod was solid but not special. This is the same media that you seem to dislike. My point though is the really good teams make good picks, go read skins4eva thread and look at who the Ravens or Pats actually picked. You will find some busts but waaay more good players when compared to Cerrato drafts. I digress with that but the point was not to be so negative about the draft, it may be due to other (internal) factors.

Now your first point, yes I am angry when I come to this board and instead of getting to have intelligent discussions with Redskins fans I have to sift through so much negativity brought about in my opinion by the media that bashes every move the Skins make because of their own agenda, that being they dislike Snyder. But the worst part is that I see it turning good Redskins fans into mindless drones spewing out what they have just been told, not bothering to look into the situation and evaluate it for themselves. For example the report that we went to see The LSU QB. Half this board was talking about no longer being Redskins fan because some idiot that has an axe to grind said we were, and here is the punch line, going to trade pick #6 and Jason Campbell for the #1 pick so that we could select JaMarcus Russell.

I understand your distain from the media and i especially understand you not wanting people to just beleive what they hear or what someone tells them. I am 100% for coming up with ones own opinions based of researched facts. I guess that is why I get upset alot of the time too. But I get mad at the homers who think everything is ok and everything is all good. 1 Division Title in 14 years, i dont have many good memories.

[Dana87]

1). This is the same media that you seem to dislike.

2). Ravens or Pats picks.

3). I get mad at the homers who think everything is ok.

4). 1 Division Title in 14 years.

Your slightly misunderstood on the first point. the experts I was refering to were the scouting services. Those same scouting services that had Gardner rated as a 1st rounder are the same services that are rating the D-Line prospects this year. And I am not saying that they are wrong about these D-lineman only that their ratings should not be taken so difinitively.

Your second point is 100% acurate. The Pats and Ravens seem to have a better scouting department than we do. However I would say if you broke down all the teams drafts over the past 10 years I bet we would rank as far as hit and misses about the middle of the pack.

Point 3, I do not fall into the category of thinking everything is OK. Just that it is a whole lot better than it was and Gibbs and company should be judged on what they are doing and not have to overcome the Bias from the mistakes that previous regime made hear under snyder.

Your last point I feel is the biggest problem with Redskins fans today. You're basing your opinions and critisizums on the last 14 years. This is were your wrong. Snyder is not making the personel decisions, nor is Vinny. The final personel decisions are being made by Gibbs. Our last three years under Gibbs is being lumped into the last 14 years and you can't draw unbiased opinions if you are in that mind set. The team is not where we want to be right now, but I contend that we are much better than we were. From player personel to offensive and defensive schemes to player aquisition we are better, not perfect but better. In the 11 years Gibbs had been gone our winning % in our Division was .230. Since he has been back it has improved .160 pecentage points to .390. Those 11 years produced 1 playoff victory. Gibbs II has 1 in just 3 years. The biggest problem is most of us, me included, expected an immediate turn around. Looking back now I realize that Joe Gibbs pretty much stripped this team down and built it back up using his kind of players, similar to an expansion team. With the exception of last year, which I believe was a product of injuries and lack of quality depth and much like an expansion team, we have had steady improvement. Joe's decision to bring in Saunders I think backs up my conclusion. He knew we needed to upgrade the offensive scheme so he brought in Saunders. He also cautioned all of us that we had a lot of work ahead of us. It was the media and the fans that had this team going to the Super Bowl back in July, not Gibbs. My prediction is that we will show improvement over the 2005 season and continue on that path.

[Skinsinparadise]

Your point is a valid one, but I don't remember Guarantying that he would have the same numbers or stats, only that he would be a safer and in my opinion better pick at #6 especially if you factor in the 31st pick. As far as articles written by sports writers please your talking to the wrong guy, it's my opinion most of them don't know the first thing about building a franchise or what players can or can't do.

OK, fair enough. Its just a disagreement over whether FA is more of a crap shoot than the draft, I can argue it either way.

[Uno Mas]

Spoken like someone that hasn't watched a Greg Williams defense, or at least pay attention. With or without Briggs Rocky will get his snaps if he proves himself. Williams has a variety of packages for Rocky to work his way into. And I'm sorry if you don't understand the circumstances of our trade up last year to get Rocky. Here's an idea do a little research of your own and then when you’re a little more knowledgeable about what you’re talking about get back to me. Until then you’re frankly a waist of time. :doh:

And there were more than one thread on the subject so the mods had to merge the thread title is... Since The Skins Have Given Up On Mcintosh....(Merged) ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )

Youre wrong dude, it doesnt matter if I dont know exactly what we gave up to move up and pick up RM in the second round last year. Fact is, we gave something up for him, you get the point. Then again, you may not. Waist is a part of the body, please do not waste my time, sir! Sure, RM might get into some packages, but the point is it would be a waste to have Briggs and give up all we've invested in RM if RM can do the job himself, and neither you or I can say for sure he can or cannot. But Id like to try the guy out before giving up on him. Go cry a river somewhere else.

[Dana87]

Youre wrong dude, it doesnt matter if I dont know exactly what we gave up to move up and pick up RM in the second round last year. Fact is, we gave something up for him, you get the point. Then again, you may not. Waist is a part of the body, please do not waste my time, sir! Sure, RM might get into some packages, but the point is it would be a waste to have Briggs and give up all we've invested in RM if RM can do the job himself, and neither you or I can say for sure he can or cannot. But Id like to try the guy out before giving up on him. Go cry a river somewhere else.

Let me ask you? How healthy is Marcus Washington? Do you know if he will be completely healthy for this season or any other in the future? Your biggest problem is that you don't understand how Greg Williams schemes his defenses and if he is on board with this trade he has a plan to have a rotation of Washington, Briggs, McCintosh, and Marshall throughout the season so if it's ok with you I will align myself with his philosophy instead of yours.

And feel free to correct any spelling mistakes I might have made. :laugh: :doh:

[skinsn24]

Your slightly misunderstood on the first point. the experts I was refering to were the scouting services. Those same scouting services that had Gardner rated as a 1st rounder are the same services that are rating the D-Line prospects this year. And I am not saying that they are wrong about these D-lineman only that their ratings should not be taken so difinitively.

I guess i just dont know who the "scouting services" are. I mean i know just from watching college ball who appears good but i assume that individual teams dont care about Kipers Big Board or scouts inc. I would assume they keep all their scouting as private as possible untill after the draft. Vinny makes a statement "Rogers was our highest rated defensive player this year"

Your last point I feel is the biggest problem with Redskins fans today. You're basing your opinions and critisizums on the last 14 years. This is were your wrong. Snyder is not making the personel decisions, nor is Vinny. The final personel decisions are being made by Gibbs. Our last three years under Gibbs is being lumped into the last 14 years and you can't draw unbiased opinions if you are in that mind set. The team is not where we want to be right now, but I contend that we are much better than we were. From player personel to offensive and defensive schemes to player aquisition we are better, not perfect but better. In the 11 years Gibbs had been gone our winning % in our Division was .230. Since he has been back it has improved .160 pecentage points to .390. Those 11 years produced 1 playoff victory. Gibbs II has 1 in just 3 years. The biggest problem is most of us, me included, expected an immediate turn around. Looking back now I realize that Joe Gibbs pretty much stripped this team down and built it back up using his kind of players, similar to an expansion team. With the exception of last year, which I believe was a product of injuries and lack of quality depth and much like an expansion team, we have had steady improvement. Joe's decision to bring in Saunders I think backs up my conclusion. He knew we needed to upgrade the offensive scheme so he brought in Saunders. He also cautioned all of us that we had a lot of work ahead of us. It was the media and the fans that had this team going to the Super Bowl back in July, not Gibbs. My prediction is that we will show improvement over the 2005 season and continue on that path.

This is partially fair but part of it i still cannot agree with. I will through outn the 14 year number because it is true, that some of that time was before any of the current administration. Instead i can judge it form when Danny boy took over, which has been what 8 years or so. 1 Division in 8 years sounds a little better but not much. I know "Gibbs is in Charge" or he "makes the final decision" but i dont care. This team IS run by a 3 headed beast and they all have input in one way or another. The team was horrible before Gibbs because Synder could not pick/stay with a decent coach. I think judging this team since Synder has been the owner is fair, because no matter what the Mods try to brainwash us with, he is the owner, it is his team, and the buck eventually will stop at him untill he removes himself completely, which has cleary not happened.

As for the biais issue, i think one then needs to throw out any memory of Gibbs I and his superbowls. Gibbs has yet to prove anything except 1 playoff win and 2 seasons under 7 wins, in his second stint. I have no problem giving Gibbs time except as a coach he was a win now mentality. How much did we hear about this "3 year run" that HE not the fans engrained in all of our heads. IF a real gm was here, with a long term outlook, and Gibbs was simply the coach, i would be a much happier fan. I drank their Kool-Aid for a long time, but enough is enough

[Dana87]

You make some valid points. And you evaluate the Redskins anyway you want. This is what I know... Snyder is a very big Redskins fan that due to his business savy built an empire for himself. He had the means and the desire to do what 99% of us would love to do, He bought the Redskins. When he started he had very little knowledge of how to run an NFL franchise and he is still a work in progress. He made mistakes too numerous to recall. But for me that is in the past. I am basing progress from 2004 when Gibbs took over and Dan officially handed over the decision making. Gibbs II is still a work in progress but I am optomistic because of what I have seen and how we have replaced a bunch of guys showing up for paychecks with a bunch of guys with a blue collar mentality no matter how much they are getting paid. Can you honestly say any of them didn't give 100% last year? We have going into the 2007 season what looks to be a very solid offense and a defense that should be back to the one we had in 2005. Our special teams are probably the best they have been in recent memory. Yes we still have some depth issues and injuries may very well spoil another season but I would rather look to what we have instead of dwelling on mistakes.

[skinsn24]

Dana,

I hear ya but i cannot view the team the way you do. I can name 2 players off the top of my head that tanked it, one being Brandon Lloyd.

For me it all comes downs to wins vs losses.

In 1999 we went 10-6 made the playoffs then added all these stars and said superbowl here we come. We went 8-8, broke my heart, and everyone here said it was a huge failure.

In 2005, we went 10-6, added players, and said superbowl here we come. We didnt go 8-8, we went 5-11, and I am sussposed to beleive things are better now than then?

I used to drink the Kool-Aid but after last year my spritits are broken. I would simply like to see back to back winning seasons.

[Thinking Skins]

Spoken like someone that hasn't watched a Greg Williams defense, or at least pay attention. With or without Briggs Rocky will get his snaps if he proves himself. Williams has a variety of packages for Rocky to work his way into. And I'm sorry if you don't understand the circumstances of our trade up last year to get Rocky. Here's an idea do a little research of your own and then when you’re a little more knowledgeable about what you’re talking about get back to me. Until then you’re frankly a waist of time. :doh:

And there were more than one thread on the subject so the mods had to merge the thread title is... Since The Skins Have Given Up On Mcintosh....(Merged) ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )

Well Williams sure didn't try to get Rocky into any packages last year. And he didn't try to get Lavar into any packages 2 years ago. But I guess those are the exceptions, right?

[Dana87]

Well Williams sure didn't try to get Rocky into any packages last year. And he didn't try to get Lavar into any packages 2 years ago. But I guess those are the exceptions, right?

Actually he tried to get Lavar in the game he just couldn't get Lavar to stick to his assignment. As far as Rocky goes they didn't give up to draft picks not to give him a chance, when he is ready he will play.

[Dana87]

Dana,

I hear ya but i cannot view the team the way you do. I can name 2 players off the top of my head that tanked it, one being Brandon Lloyd.

For me it all comes downs to wins vs losses.

In 1999 we went 10-6 made the playoffs then added all these stars and said superbowl here we come. We went 8-8, broke my heart, and everyone here said it was a huge failure.

In 2005, we went 10-6, added players, and said superbowl here we come. We didnt go 8-8, we went 5-11, and I am sussposed to beleive things are better now than then?

I used to drink the Kool-Aid but after last year my spritits are broken. I would simply like to see back to back winning seasons.

Do you have any of the games on tape? If so go back and watch the Minnesota, Jacksonville, Dallas (the second game) and you will see Lloyd open all day and also making key blocks. Unfortunatly I don't have all of the games still on tivo but I have watched these games over and over. Not only did Lloyd not dog it but he gave 110%. The reason he melted down at the end of the season is he was frequently open and the ball was always going somewhere else, and then had to hear week after week what a bust he was by local media and fans. That would be hard for anyone to take. Watch the games and watch him and then tell me if he tanked it.

[fansince62]

You make some valid points. And you evaluate the Redskins anyway you want. This is what I know... Snyder is a very big Redskins fan that due to his business savy built an empire for himself. He had the means and the desire to do what 99% of us would love to do, He bought the Redskins. When he started he had very little knowledge of how to run an NFL franchise and he is still a work in progress. He made mistakes too numerous to recall. But for me that is in the past. I am basing progress from 2004 when Gibbs took over and Dan officially handed over the decision making. Gibbs II is still a work in progress but I am optomistic because of what I have seen and how we have replaced a bunch of guys showing up for paychecks with a bunch of guys with a blue collar mentality no matter how much they are getting paid. Can you honestly say any of them didn't give 100% last year? We have going into the 2007 season what looks to be a very solid offense and a defense that should be back to the one we had in 2005. Our special teams are probably the best they have been in recent memory. Yes we still have some depth issues and injuries may very well spoil another season but I would rather look to what we have instead of dwelling on mistakes.

all reasonable points I am inclined to agree with. the lone exception being I think the team has an uncomfortably unbalanced personnel management position due to a lack of faith in either their abilities or the returns to drafting. this has a long term impact.

[skinsn24]

Do you have any of the games on tape? If so go back and watch the Minnesota, Jacksonville, Dallas (the second game) and you will see Lloyd open all day and also making key blocks. Unfortunatly I don't have all of the games still on tivo but I have watched these games over and over. Not only did Lloyd not dog it but he gave 110%. The reason he melted down at the end of the season is he was frequently open and the ball was always going somewhere else, and then had to hear week after week what a bust he was by local media and fans. That would be hard for anyone to take. Watch the games and watch him and then tell me if he tanked it.

Dana I agree early in the season Lloyd was balla blockin. There was a long td catch or run, i cant remember, where he was out in front the whole time blocking. However, i dont need you to give me excuses as to why he started to tank it at the end of the year. Gibbs saw his problems as well. Maybe not catching JCs first pass did something to him but i hope he comes back out with intensity next year.

[SkinsFanAnt]

I'm a Bear's fan and hate to say it but the nitwits on the Bears board don't know half as much about football as the Skins fans here

............you have got to be kidding me......I cry for you my friend.

[SkinsFanAnt]

You make some valid points. And you evaluate the Redskins anyway you want. This is what I know... Snyder is a very big Redskins fan that due to his business savy built an empire for himself.

You lost me right there man. :doh: Damn...........:doh:............................:doh:

If he was a Skins fan why does he treat the REAL SKins fans like ****? Signing checks to big name players so the REAL fans can go to games, pay $200-350/game for 5-11 seasons!? AND he charges up the ass for parking, tries to outlaw walking to Fed Ex Field, sells out EVERYTHING to advertising and CHARGES fans to watch training camp? Dude...Daniel Snyder is Jerry Jones II. AND I HATE JERRY JONES. Don't come up in here defending Snyder with that weak garbage.

[Dana87]

You lost me right there man. :doh: Damn...........:doh:............................:doh:

If he was a Skins fan why does he treat the REAL SKins fans like ****? Signing checks to big name players so the REAL fans can go to games, pay $200-350/game for 5-11 seasons!? AND he charges up the ass for parking, tries to outlaw walking to Fed Ex Field, sells out EVERYTHING to advertising and CHARGES fans to watch training camp? Dude...Daniel Snyder is Jerry Jones II. AND I HATE JERRY JONES. Don't come up in here defending Snyder with that weak garbage.

I have lower section season tickets in the 100 section for $90.00 per game. Here's an idea sell your propaganda somewhere else. Snyder might not have know how to make player personel decisions, but he is not screwing anyone. When I get my Season ticket invoice every year nowhere on it does it say Pay this or else. I choose to buy them, I choose to pay parking, I choose to buy the Jerseys and other consessions which by the way are less expensive and higher quality than what we have in Jacksonville. He spends Millions to give Redskins fans quality entertainment and noone can deny that. We are competitive each and every week which is all a reasonable fan can ask for. You think the fans whose teams sit on all that cap money year after year pay that much less for tickets and consessions? If so you are deluding yourself. I have been to Houston, Carolina, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Tampa, Jacksonville, Miami, Cleveland, Dallas, & New Orleans. And I have paid more or less the same prices.