VERDICT in Scooter Libby Trial

[rincewind]

Whatever Chommie, BJ's and infidelity are more interesting than this.

Did you notice Chom's fruedian slip (2nd word of his post)? :laugh:

[Predicto]

Whatever Chommie, BJ's and infidelity are more interesting than this.

Pretty much. Plus, the other thing directly involved the President himself.

[Larry]

If perjury regarding a non-illegal but sleazy act is now something that gets a political person indicted, Bill Clinton should be shaking in his boots.

Nah, Hillary will pardon him.

(Although, I could also see Hillary giving Janet Reno her old job back, and saying "sic 'im".)

(And, as has been pointed out, lieing about a non-illegal event did get Bill Clinton in trouble.)

[Predicto]

2 years of appeals keep him out of jail, then Bush pulls a Clintonesque pardon on his way out.

How much did this exercise in futility cost the Govt? All payback for Monicagate.

I agree, but I also think the main reason this was an exercise in futility was because Scooter refused to roll over and spill the dirt on Cheney. Like someone else said, Scooter took one for the team.

[headexplode]

I hope to Vishnu that Scooter is not his real name. Because if it is, he should go to jail just on that point alone.

Who wants Scooter-pie?

[JMS]

Why are we not talking about Sandy Berger's theft and possible destruction of documents from the National Archives? This is much more appalling IMO.

Because it's mostly bunk. During 9/11 investigation everybody was interested in what Clinton had done and comparing that to what Bush had done. Bush followers were trying to blame Clinton. Burger was the national security adviser and both testified himself and helped prepare Clinton's testomony.

Burger did not have the documents he needed to prepare his testomony, and the entire 911 panel was high politics. The documents which Burger needed and had a right to were being given to him a few at a time and he wasn't allowed to make notes. So he took the documents to prepare his testomony.

Burger didn't take originals, he only had access to copies. Burger only months before had been authorized do this months earlier under Clinton. That he wasn't given the authoriazation under Bush is where the politics occur.

He was the national security director for years. Why is he unworthy of carrying classified documents pertaining to his tenure only under the Bush administration?

[Chump Bailey]

Because it's mostly bunk. During 9/11 investigation everybody was interested in what Clinton had done and comparing that to what Bush had done. Bush followers were trying to blame Clinton. Burger was the national security adviser and both testified himself and helped prepare Clinton's testomony.

Burger did not have the documents he needed to prepare his testomony, and the entire 911 panel was high politics. The documents which Burger needed and had a right to were being given to him a few at a time and he wasn't allowed to make notes. So he took the documents to prepare his testomony.

Burger didn't take originals, he only had access to copies. Burger only months before had been authorized do this months earlier under Clinton. That he wasn't given the authoriazation under Bush is where the politics occur.

He was the national security director for years. Why is he unworthy of carrying classified documents pertaining to his tenure only under the Bush administration?

Not convinced JMS - seems real flimsy IMO but I will read more into it...

[techboy]

Well, he was impeached. That's pretty big.

And disbarred. But not indicted.

[Chump Bailey]

Ummm... because this is a thread about the Scooter Libby trial? :whoknows:

Thanks captain obvious:thumbsup:

Why are we not talking about Sandy Berger's theft and possible destruction of documents from the National Archives? This is much more appalling IMO.

I was more upset with the Berger situation than I was the Libby trial...

Hence the last sentence in the post...

[TradeTheBeal!]

Man. A guy named Scooter might have a hard time in Federal Pound-Me-In-The-*****-Prison.

He'll be alright...He'll become someone's ***** the first day there, just like he's Cheney's ***** now.

[JMS]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/16/AR2007021601705.html

I like to call this the clinton defense. It just shows that both parties will use it.

I didn't have sex with that lady. If I did I did't lie about it. If I lied about it, lieing about it wasn't a crime. If the felony of lieing to a federal court is a crime; it doesn't raise to the level of a misdomenor required by the constitution as an impeachable offense.

In Scooters defense... I didn't know who Valary Phame was. If I did know about her, I didn't leak her name. If I did leak her name I heard about it from sombody else so it's not classified. If I didn't hear about it from someone in the press she's not under cover so it's not classified. If she is under cover, It's still not a crime because she's not overseas.

The unravelling is logically simplistic. Did have sex, did lie, was a crime. misdomenor is in fact less sereous than a felony.

For Scooter. He did leak her name, He didn't hear about it from Tim Russert as he contends. He did hold meetings in the WH where Valary and Joe Wilson were the only topics. He knew her name was secret because it was pointed out to him in the secret documents and by people he interviewed. He lied about it because he knew he broke the law. He was convicted of lieing about it because the case was clear that he did in fact lie.

[Sarge]

Because it's mostly bunk. During 9/11 investigation everybody was interested in what Clinton had done and comparing that to what Bush had done. Bush followers were trying to blame Clinton. Burger was the national security adviser and both testified himself and helped prepare Clinton's testomony.

Burger did not have the documents he needed to prepare his testomony, and the entire 911 panel was high politics. The documents which Burger needed and had a right to were being given to him a few at a time and he wasn't allowed to make notes. So he took the documents to prepare his testomony.

Burger didn't take originals, he only had access to copies. Burger only months before had been authorized do this months earlier under Clinton. That he wasn't given the authoriazation under Bush is where the politics occur.

He was the national security director for years. Why is he unworthy of carrying classified documents pertaining to his tenure only under the Bush administration?

Yeah, he wa so in the right he hid the stolen documents under a trailer.

Just like every honest person does

[Midnight Judges]

I like to call this the clinton defense. It just shows that both parties will use it.

I didn't have sex with that lady. If I did I did't lie about it. If I lied about it, lieing about it wasn't a crime. If the felony of lieing to a federal court is a crime; it doesn't raise to the level of a misdomenor required by the constitution as an impeachable offense.

In Scooters defense... I didn't know who Valary Phame was. If I did know about her, I didn't leak her name. If I did leak her name I heard about it from sombody else so it's not classified. If I didn't hear about it from someone in the press she's not under cover so it's not classified. If she is under cover, It's still not a crime because she's not overseas.

The unravelling is logically simplistic. Did have sex, did lie, was a crime. misdomenor is in fact less sereous than a felony.

For Scooter. He did leak her name, He didn't hear about it from Tim Russert as he contends. He did hold meetings in the WH where Valary and Joe Wilson were the only topics. He knew her name was secret because it was pointed out to him in the secret documents and by people he interviewed. He lied about it because he knew he broke the law. He was convicted of lieing about it because the case was clear that he did in fact lie.

But was she covert? Looks like she wasn't. If outing a covert agent was the original charge, why didn't Fitzgerald simply access that information and conclude that no crime was committed?

I don't disagree with your other points, Libby did in fact perjure himself which comes as no surprise from one of the most dishonest administrations this side of communist Russia. But the entire investigation should have been halted upon learning of Plame's presumably non-covert status.

[JMS]

Yeah, he wa so in the right he hid the stolen documents under a trailer.

Just like every honest person does

trailer? He pulled a Fawn Hall and stuffed them into his pants and jacket. Then walked out of the building with them. Wasn't allowed to carry a brief case in the room where the documents were handed to him one at a time by a librarian.

Are you suggesting the National Security advisor should have the athority to handle secret documents? Any TS cleared person has that right. The National Security Adviser is and should be at the top of the food chain in having access to secure documents.

And he is except when politics comes to bare.

He didnt' have original documents. He had copies. He wasn't trying to cover anything up, He was trying to prepare for 911 hearings. I doubt he could have destroyed all the copies of a secrete document even if he was still in office, much less by smuggling them out one at a time in his underpants.

[@DCGoldPants]

Who in this thread has dedicated their posts in attempt to change subjects, or to say "Well, this other guy is a criminal also....."?

Show of hands

[JMS]

But was she covert? Looks like she wasn't. If outing a covert agent was the original charge, why didn't Fitzgerald simply access that information and conclude that no crime was committed?

I don't disagree with your other points, Libby did in fact perjure himself which comes as no surprise from one of the most dishonest administrations this side of communist Russia. But the entire investigation should have been halted upon learning of Plame's presumably non-covert status.

She was covert. And again changing the definition of what covert means doesn't help them. She maintained a covert identity. It wasn't common knowledge that she in the CIA. She had a job working on Arms Proliferation which did and would take her out of the country. Her husband was an ambasidor and his job likewise took them out of the country.

Everybody who works at the CIA tells people they work at State. Tell their kids they work at State or Agriculture or somewhere else in DC. The CIA tells you to do that when you begin working for them. I know this first hand, as I used to work for State...

why didn't Fitzgerald simply access that information and conclude that no crime was committed?

Because outing a covert agent is a crime and Vallary was covert. It's just a much harder case to make than purjury which was straight forward. All Scooter had to do to beat the leaking Valaries name charge was to say Cheney told him to do it. Then all Cheney had to do was say, I don't remember. Case dismissed..... So Fitz went with purjury.

Both Bush and Cheney have the authority to declassify information verbally. Bush signed an executive order which grant's Cheney this right usually reserved for the President.

[Midnight Judges]

She was covert. And again changing the definition of what covert means doesn't help them. She maintained a covert identity. It wasn't common knowledge that she in the CIA. She had a job working on Arms Proliferation which did and would take her out of the country. Her husband was an ambasidor and his job likewise took them out of the country.

Everybody who works at the CIA tells people they work at State. Tell their kids they work at State or Agriculture or somewhere else in DC. The CIA tells you to do that when you begin working for them. I know this first hand, as I used to work for State...

Because outing a covert agent is a crime and Vallary was covert. It's just a much harder case to make than purjury which was straight forward.

That's the thing, I haven't seen any evidence that she was covert, and simply not telling neighbors or working on certain cases does not make somebody covert. I would think it's more of an official status.

Then again, I know people who work at the CIA and everyone knows.

[Chump Bailey]

Who in this thread has dedicated their posts in attempt to change subjects, or to say "Well, this other guy is a criminal also....."?

Show of hands

Not guilty Buff - just thinking aloud with a generalization WRT the Berger stuff. That seemed more alarming:2cents: . Berger was convicted but got a sweetheart deal it seems...

[@DCGoldPants]

So, you use that to judge this? Instead of judging it on its own issues?

Start a Berger thread if that's what's been on your mind lately.

[JMS]

That's the thing, I haven't seen any evidence that she was covert, and simply not telling neighbors or working on certain cases does not make somebody covert. I would think it's more of an official status.

It's not an official status. Nor do they publish lists of "covert" agents. You are covert if you take steps to keep your CIA offiliation secret. There is good reason to do this because CIA agents do get targeted by foreign inteligence agencies even in the US. They also can and have been murdered just because of the affiliation when traveling abroad. That's why the senate passed the law. Because a CIA officer was murdered in Lebonon in the early Regan days. Kidnapped off the streets. They sent a video to the whitehouse of the torture.

That's why it's a crime. That's why Scooter should go to jail.

[Chump Bailey]

trailer? He pulled a Fawn Hall and stuffed them into his pants and jacket. Then walked out of the building with them. Wasn't allowed to carry a brief case in the room where the documents were handed to him one at a time by a librarian.

Are you suggesting the National Security advisor should have the athority to handle secret documents? Any TS cleared person has that right. The National Security Adviser is and should be at the top of the food chain in having access to secure documents.

And he is except when politics comes to bare.

He didnt' have original documents. He had copies. He wasn't trying to cover anything up, He was trying to prepare for 911 hearings. I doubt he could have destroyed all the copies of a secrete document even if he was still in office, much less by smuggling them out one at a time in his underpants.

Do a Google search with Berger, documents and trailer JMS - I've heard the same accounting...

Too lazy to do any 'exhaustive' research on the matter. He's an ex trial lawyer anyway so I doubt I would find anything he says in response to be credible in the first place:D

[chomerics]

2 years of appeals keep him out of jail, then Bush pulls a Clintonesque pardon on his way out.

How much did this exercise in futility cost the Govt? All payback for Monicagate.

Yet monica was about a BJ, this was about outing a CIA official in a manner of revenge that possibly cost peoples lives and decades of work.

Why am I not surprised the righties are defending this scum.

One more thing, what would the righties have said if Clinton did this?

[stevenaa]

Yet monica was about a BJ, this was about outing a CIA official in a manner of revenge that possibly cost peoples lives and decades of work.

Why am I not surprised the righties are defending this scum.

It was about perjury, as this was. Libby should do the time. There isn't any excusing any of this in the name of politics. He lied. He got busted for it.

[Chump Bailey]

So, you use that to judge this? Instead of judging it on its own issues?

Start a Berger thread if that's what's been on your mind lately.

Excuse me all over the place...

[Kilmer17]

Libby committed the exact same crime as Bill Clinton PERJURY.

Neither will do a day in jail for it.