VERDICT in Scooter Libby Trial

[Sarge]

Sarge.

• China was granted permenent most favored nation status under Bush.
  
• China was granted entry into the WTO under Bush.
  
• China's trade deficite to the US has exploded under Bush.
  
• America's foreign debt to china is currently over a trillion dollars because of Bush deficite spending.
  
• The #1 lobiest for China in this country has been and continues to be the Republican Henry Kissinger who has recieved more than a million a year to represent the Chinese for more than two decades.
  

China acquired MERV technology under Klinton

China acquired advanced nuclear technolgy under Klinton, obstensively for a few bucks to the DNC via some Buddist monks

China acquired third stage ICBM launch technology under Klinton

Your point?

Berger was a CHICOM lobbist. He had no background in National Security matters and yet was still made NAtional Security Advisor

It appears even after all that time he still has no concept of chain of custody matters, which is really BASIC stuff.

And he was formulating and advising on national security?

[JMS]

China acquired MERV technology under Klinton

MIRV "Multiple Independently targetable Re-entry Vehicle" has been around since the 1960's. There is no evidence that America much less Clinton is responsible for China aquiring this technology as the Russians who gave China the bomb also have MIRV technology. What China supposedly obtained from Los Alomos, not Clinton, was the ability to shrink a warhead in order to use MIRV technology on missiles small enough to be placed on submarines. This ability to shrink the size of a nuke is key to putting them on submarines as well as allow them to utilize MIRV targeting.

China acquired advanced nuclear technolgy under Klinton, obstensively for a few bucks to the DNC via some Buddist monks

China stole Nuclear technology secrets from Los Alomos nuclear research center. There is no claim that secrets were sold to china out side of right wing conspiricy blogs.

The monks you reffer to were giving money to Al Gore's campagn for the Presidency, not Bill Clintons.

China acquired third stage ICBM launch technology under Klinton

Clinton relaxed certain space technology exports to china it is true. Two American companies.. LORAL and Hughes were prosocuted for exporting even more technology to China than Cliinton had allowed while they worked in China on civilian satalite space programs. This illegally exported technology has been utilized by China's military space program as you state.

Your point?

Clinton was in office as some technology was exported and much more technology was stolen by China. Bush has been in office as our trade deficite has mushroomed, and our dept to china has grown to a trillion dollars. Clinton's relaxing some technology exports, the only thing you can hold him responsible for; is hardly as damaging to national security as Bush's offenses you ignore.

Berger was a CHICOM lobbist. He had no background in National Security matters and yet was still made NAtional Security Advisor

Sandy Berger:

• Undergraduate degree from Cornel
  
• A law degree from Harvard
  
• Special deputy to NY Mayor John Lindsey.
  
• On the staff of senator Harold Hugues and congressman Joseph Resnik
  
• Deputy director of policy planning at the State dept under Carter.
  
• A partner in Hogan and Hartson an international law firm where he was their point man on internatioal law.
  
• A national security advisor to govoner Clinton during the campagn
  
• On the transition team for national security after Clinton won
  
• Deputy national security advisor for four years
  
• National security advisor for four years
  

I think had no background in National security maters before becoming NS Advisor is stretching it a little.

It appears even after all that time he still has no concept of chain of custody matters, which is really BASIC stuff.

Burger's objective was to accurately account for the Clinton administrations moves to secure the country from terrorists to the 911 comittee. When the Bush administration tried to make this task impossible by restricting not his access to documents but how he was able to access them; He ignored the politically imposed restrictions and accomplished his goal anyway. He then was fined for his actions.

And he was formulating and advising on national security?

Spanning four decades.

[Prosperity]

China acquired MERV technology under Klinton

China acquired advanced nuclear technolgy under Klinton, obstensively for a few bucks to the DNC via some Buddist monks

China acquired third stage ICBM launch technology under Klinton

Your point?

Berger was a CHICOM lobbist. He had no background in National Security matters and yet was still made NAtional Security Advisor

It appears even after all that time he still has no concept of chain of custody matters, which is really BASIC stuff.

And he was formulating and advising on national security?

except technology can be acquired by oneself but political concessions can't

[Winslowalrob]

MIRV "Multiple Independently targetable Re-entry Vehicle" has been around since the 1960's. There is no evidence that America much less Clinton is responsible for China aquiring this technology as the Russians who gave China the bomb also have MIRV technology. What China supposedly obtained from Los Alomos, not Clinton, was the ability to shrink a warhead in order to use MIRV technology on missiles small enough to be placed on submarines. This ability to shrink the size of a nuke is key to putting them on submarines as well as allow them to utilize MIRV targeting.

China stole Nuclear technology secrets from Los Alomos nuclear research center. There is no claim that secrets were sold to china out side of right wing conspiricy blogs.

The monks you reffer to were giving money to Al Gore's campagn for the Presidency, not Bill Clintons.

Clinton relaxed certain space technology exports to china it is true. Two American companies.. LORAL and Hughes were prosocuted for exporting even more technology to China than Cliinton had allowed while they worked in China on civilian satalite space programs. This illegally exported technology has been utilized by China's military space program as you state.

Clinton was in office as some technology was exported and much more technology was stolen by China. Bush has been in office as our trade deficite has mushroomed, and our dept to china has grown to a trillion dollars. Clinton's relaxing some technology exports, the only thing you can hold him responsible for; is hardly as damaging to national security as Bush's offenses you ignore.

Sandy Berger:

• Undergraduate degree from Cornel
  
• A law degree from Harvard
  
• Special deputy to NY Mayor John Lindsey.
  
• On the staff of senator Harold Hugues and congressman Joseph Resnik
  
• Deputy director of policy planning at the State dept under Carter.
  
• A partner in Hogan and Hartson an international law firm where he was their point man on internatioal law.
  
• A national security advisor to govoner Clinton during the campagn
  
• On the transition team for national security after Clinton won
  
• Deputy national security advisor for four years
  
• National security advisor for four years
  

I think had no background in National security maters before becoming NS Advisor is stretching it a little.

Burger's objective was to accurately account for the Clinton administrations moves to secure the country from terrorists to the 911 comittee. When the Bush administration tried to make this task impossible by restricting not his access to documents but how he was able to access them; He ignored the politically imposed restrictions and accomplished his goal anyway. He then was fined for his actions.

Spanning four decades.

JMS, you are thrashing people with logic, argument, facts, data, and all that crap. But it does not matter, because short of Jesus himself coming down, walking to Sarge's desktop, and saying "quit blaming Clinton" there is nothing that you can do. Same goes for many, many, many posters here. A noble effort, but ultimately moot when people do not even need to argue themselves, just pull up a (possibly dubious) newspaper article to do the talking for them .

[Sarge]

MIRV "Multiple Independently targetable Re-entry Vehicle" has been around since the 1960's. There is no evidence that America much less Clinton is responsible for China aquiring this technology as the Russians who gave China the bomb also have MIRV technology. What China supposedly obtained from Los Alomos, not Clinton, was the ability to shrink a warhead in order to use MIRV technology on missiles small enough to be placed on submarines. This ability to shrink the size of a nuke is key to putting them on submarines as well as allow them to utilize MIRV targeting.

China stole Nuclear technology secrets from Los Alomos nuclear research center. There is no claim that secrets were sold to china out side of right wing conspiricy blogs.

The monks you reffer to were giving money to Al Gore's campagn for the Presidency, not Bill Clintons.

Clinton relaxed certain space technology exports to china it is true. Two American companies.. LORAL and Hughes were prosocuted for exporting even more technology to China than Cliinton had allowed while they worked in China on civilian satalite space programs. This illegally exported technology has been utilized by China's military space program as you state.

Clinton was in office as some technology was exported and much more technology was stolen by China. Bush has been in office as our trade deficite has mushroomed, and our dept to china has grown to a trillion dollars. Clinton's relaxing some technology exports, the only thing you can hold him responsible for; is hardly as damaging to national security as Bush's offenses you ignore.

Sandy Berger:

• Undergraduate degree from Cornel
  
• A law degree from Harvard
  
• Special deputy to NY Mayor John Lindsey.
  
• On the staff of senator Harold Hugues and congressman Joseph Resnik
  
• Deputy director of policy planning at the State dept under Carter.
  
• A partner in Hogan and Hartson an international law firm where he was their point man on internatioal law.
  
• A national security advisor to govoner Clinton during the campagn
  
• On the transition team for national security after Clinton won
  
• Deputy national security advisor for four years
  
• National security advisor for four years
  

I think had no background in National security maters before becoming NS Advisor is stretching it a little.

Burger's objective was to accurately account for the Clinton administrations moves to secure the country from terrorists to the 911 comittee. When the Bush administration tried to make this task impossible by restricting not his access to documents but how he was able to access them; He ignored the politically imposed restrictions and accomplished his goal anyway. He then was fined for his actions.

Spanning four decades.

Nice link here, from the Compost no less

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/missile/keystories.htm

Before Klinton came to office, the CHICOMS could barely launch a firecracker more than a hundred feet in the air. Follow the Compost summary, especially these links. In a matter of a few years, the CHICOMS went from barely launching firecrackers to launching multi-staged ICBM's, obstenively for commercial use but knowing full well of the military use as well.

Klinton relaxed export standards of technology for Loral Space and took away control of export technology from State and gave it to Ron Brown in Commerce. In turn, Loral Space made massive contributions to the DNC

Klinont gave the CHICOMS the ablity to advance 40 years in rocket tech inside of 10 years, and simultaneously gave the CHICOMS to the ability to launch nuclear ICBM's at the US

PAy attention to these articles

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/satellite123198.htm

Chinese Missile Allegations: Key Stories

Panel Faults Space Aid to China

December 31, 1998

Two American aerospace companies damaged U.S. national security when they provided Chinese space engineers with technical rocketry data that could have assisted Beijing's ballistic missile program, a House committee concluded in a classified 700-page report.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/hughes120998.htm

Report Faults Hughes on Data Given China

By Walter Pincus and John Mintz

Washington Post Staff Writers

Wednesday, December 9, 1998; Page A22

A preliminary Defense Department assessment has concluded that Hughes Electronics Corp. provided China with information potentially damaging to U.S. national security following the 1995 crash of a Chinese rocket carrying a Hughes-built commercial satellite, administration officials said yesterday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/satellite091998.htm

Conferees on Hill Agree to Return Satellite Export Licensing to State

By Walter Pincus

Washington Post Staff Writer

Saturday, September 19, 1998; Page A07

A House-Senate conference has agreed to transfer export licensing for all commercial communications satellites from the Commerce Department to the State Department and toughen rules governing such transactions involving China. The move would reverse a 1996 decision by President Clinton that came under fire this year amid allegations of unauthorized technology transfers to China and favoritism to a big campaign contributor.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/mcdonnell060798.htm

Sale of Aircraft Machinery to China

Shows Perils of Exporting Technology

By John Mintz

Washington Post Staff Writer

Sunday, June 7, 1998; Page A08

Angry already that their factory was closing, some employees at the McDonnell Douglas Corp. aircraft plant in Columbus, Ohio, lost their tempers one day in August 1993 when dark-suited Chinese officials arrived to inspect the surplus machinery put up for sale. Some workers yelled epithets, blocked the Chinese visitors' video cameras or moved filing cabinets in their path.

The visitors, from a Chinese government aircraft company, were eager to buy the plant's colossal computer-controlled machines, which had made parts for the B-1 bomber and the C-17 transport. Soon they struck a deal for $5.4 million and, after the U.S. Commerce Department secured a promise that the machines would be used only to build jetliners, the Chinese trundled the equipment into trucks and shipped it to China.

But some of the sensitive U.S. equipment turned up at a Chinese factory that makes Silkworm missiles, and in 1996 the Justice Department launched a criminal investigation into whether Chinese officials lied by pledging they would not use the machinery to make weapons, and whether McDonnell Douglas knew or should have known that the Chinese commitment was bogus. The investigation, which is ongoing, could result in charges against both parties of violating the terms of their export license

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/missiles060598.htm

CIA Director Is Quiet on Technology Transfer

By Walter Pincus and Roberto Suro

Washington Post Staff Writers

Friday, June 5, 1998; Page A04

CIA Director George J. Tenet refused yesterday to discuss with the Senate Intelligence Committee a secret report about an unauthorized U.S. transfer of information to Chinese missile officials, citing a last-minute request by Attorney General Janet Reno to reserve comment on the case, congressional and administration sources said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/loral052598.htm

Big Donor Calls Favorable Treatment a 'Coincidence'

By Ruth Marcus and John Mintz

Washington Post Staff Writers

Monday, May 25, 1998; Page A1

In June 1994, Bernard L. Schwartz, the chairman of Loral Corp., wrote his first six-figure check to the Democratic Party, donating $100,000 to the Democratic National Committee.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/cf051698.htm

Johnny Chung (AP File Photo)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Related Links

Chung Makes Deal With Prosecutors (Washington Post, March 6)

Key Player: Johnny Chung

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Chung Ties Funds

To DNC

By Roberto Suro and Bob Woodward

Washington Post Staff Writers

Saturday, May 16, 1998; Page A01

Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told Justice Department investigators that a Chinese military officer who is an executive with a state-owned aerospace company gave him $300,000 to donate to the Democrats' 1996 campaign, according to federal officials who said that financial records back up key aspects of his account.

[Rocky21]

Sarge,

You need to get out more.

[JMS]

Sarge,

If China wanted to destroy the US they wouldn't need to take any military action. They wouldn't need to take any offensive action. All they would have to do is stop buying dollars. Our economy would collapse. If they took a further step of actually selling some of the dollars that they currently have, some 1 TRILLION of them. The US economy would be similar to post WWI Germany.

Clinton did not give China this power over us. Bush did by running record deficites along with record one sided trade policy. Our only defense from this Chinese economic power we've given to them under the Bush administration is the US currency China currently own is in the hands of comunists who are likewise benifiting from their economic boom. If they sink us, they stop their forward economic movement and return to a third world country status, where most of China currently resides anyway. I'll leave it up to you to decide if communist good will/greed is a sufficient counterbalance to the destruction of the American Economy.

Again, Loral and Hughes were prosecuted for their technology transfers to china. The miniturized warhead China aquired under Clinton was stolen from the Los Alomos nuclear research facility. The relaxation of exports to China are small potatos to these other transfers. Bush's making the US economy subservient to the Chinese economy is much more of a security concern than Clinton allowing them to purchase pentium computers directly from the US rather than from a Taiwan middleman.

note.. I haven't read all your articles yet, I will. Thank you for posting them. They look like a good read.

[PiLfan]

If China wanted to destroy the US they wouldn't need to take any military action. They wouldn't need to take any offensive action. All they would have to do is stop buying dollars. Our economy would collapse. If they took a further step of actually selling some of the dollars that they currently have, some 1 TRILLION of them. The US economy would be similar to post WWI Germany.

Clinton did not give China this power over us. Bush did by running record deficites along with record one sided trade policy. Our only defense from this Chinese economic power we've given to them under the Bush administration is the US currency China currently own is in the hands of comunists who are likewise benifiting from their economic boom. If they sink us, they stop their forward economic movement and return to a third world country status, where most of China currently resides anyway. I'll leave it up to you to decide if communist good will/greed is a sufficient counterbalance to the destruction of the American Economy.

:applause:

Very, very good summary.

And alas, very, very true as well.

[Prosperity]

If China does that it bought a bunch of useless dollars and its economy collapses too.

That's the beauty of globalization, interdependence makes wars unprofitable

[Larry]

If China does that it bought a bunch of useless dollars and its economy collapses too.

That's the beauty of globalization, interdependence makes wars unprofitable

I agree with you that that scenario is unlikely.

I'm just not certain that "Mutual Assured Economic Destruction" is a viable threat when the decisions in China are being made by folks who don't give an eff about their people.

Bear in mind, for example, that to the "Communist mullahs", if you will, that run China, this same growth that's happening in China is also a threat to them.

I'll also point out that if a stampede to dump the dollar does occur, the country that starts it will be the country that suffers least. The #1 and #2 owners of dollars are China and Japan. Good thing those two have such a history of getting along well with each other.

[JMS]

If China does that it bought a bunch of useless dollars and its economy collapses too.

That's the beauty of globalization, interdependence makes wars unprofitable

Well in this case War is unnecessary. You put forward the popular counter argument. Problem is that the vast majority of the at risk Chinese have no say in their governments policies.

When Moa instituted "the great leap forward" and the "cultural revolution" tens of millions of Chinese died. Moa could have cared less. Price of progress. I suggest to you that the people who have a say in Chinese economic policy are not likely to either loose power, loose sleep, or loose calories over adoption of a new economic policy towards the US.

I think a stronger argument for Chinese restraint can be made. Why should China opose us today. Tommorrow they will only be stronger, and we will only be weaker.

[Sarge]

Sarge,

If China wanted to destroy the US they wouldn't need to take any military action. They wouldn't need to take any offensive action. All they would have to do is stop buying dollars. Our economy would collapse. If they took a further step of actually selling some of the dollars that they currently have, some 1 TRILLION of them. The US economy would be similar to post WWI Germany.

Clinton did not give China this power over us. Bush did by running record deficites along with record one sided trade policy. Our only defense from this Chinese economic power we've given to them under the Bush administration is the US currency China currently own is in the hands of comunists who are likewise benifiting from their economic boom. If they sink us, they stop their forward economic movement and return to a third world country status, where most of China currently resides anyway. I'll leave it up to you to decide if communist good will/greed is a sufficient counterbalance to the destruction of the American Economy.

Again, Loral and Hughes were prosecuted for their technology transfers to china. The miniturized warhead China aquired under Clinton was stolen from the Los Alomos nuclear research facility. The relaxation of exports to China are small potatos to these other transfers. Bush's making the US economy subservient to the Chinese economy is much more of a security concern than Clinton allowing them to purchase pentium computers directly from the US rather than from a Taiwan middleman.

note.. I haven't read all your articles yet, I will. Thank you for posting them. They look like a good read.

Conversely, if we quit buying rubber dog **** from China, or more likely inplement tarriffs, there goes their economy as well.

That's when things will get dangerous, especially now that they can rech us with the technology Klinton sold them for campaign contributions

Thanks Bill :doh:

[JMS]

Conversely, if we quit buying rubber dog **** from China, or more likely inplement tarriffs, there goes their economy as well.

That's when things will get dangerous, especially now that they can rech us with the technology Klinton sold them for campaign contributions

Thanks Bill :doh:

It's not the rubber dog excrement that China sells us. It's all the clothes you're wearing purchased from Gap, Walmart and Target. It's the computers which we are communicating on. It's electronics which lock and unlock our automobiles and homes. It's everything Wall Mart, the largest American retailer sells.

Sure China makes plastic stuff too. But you can't dismiss them as only doing as such. I remember when Japan's products were seen as cheap and inferior. I remember in the late 1970's when they made their move on our auto industry. How overnight in the early 1980's they had jumped from the low end, to the high end automobiles.

While your assertion is a valid one. Who is in the power position the seller or the buyer. The buyer right. Change that around now under Bush. Who is in the power position the seller or the buyer, who also owes the seller more than his entire yearly income? The buyer who borrows about 250 billion from the seller each and every year, and growing? The buyer isn't driving this bus, the communist sellers are.

[Prosperity]

I agree with you that that scenario is unlikely.

I'm just not certain that "Mutual Assured Economic Destruction" is a viable threat when the decisions in China are being made by folks who don't give an eff about their people.

I don't think its ok to assume that the Western powers are the only sane human beings left in the world. The Chinese government may not be nice, but it has done its best to make China prosper economically.