It's the Front Office--Stupid (or lack thereof)

[skins4eva]

Monte: for the sake of at least one reference to skins4eva's consistency--I've known him well since '95. He's never been positive about the team. But I think your point is a fair one, to wit, that many people can only see as far as our result the previous week--all that I posit is that skins4eva is, generally speaking, not one of those people.

KOD I am a negative fan!

[CGSKINS]

Post

You know what? I have to agree with everything you have just said for RIGHT NOW!. I still think we can turn it around. Question is?????? Can we. We will see. After What this team did last year I cant throw in the towel yet.

Edited to comply with forum rules. ~ihs

[jbooma]

I think the problem with this franchise is and will continue to be the lack of a full commitment to a young blue chip prospect QB.

Look at the Cincinatti Bengals. They drafted Carson Palmer with the 1st overall pick. They start Jon Kitna in 2003 with the plan of having Palmer sit and learn for a year. Kitna plays great and leads the Bengals to an 8-8 record. What does Marvin Lewis do? Immediately start Carson Palmer because he's the franchise. Yeah at the time people were bashing the move. And I guarantee you, nobody is bashing that move now.

Look at the San Diego Chargers. They drafted Phillip Rivers, and then got unexpectedly great play from Drew Brees. Of course Brees had to leave in FA because of his shoulder and coach/FO conflicts. Rivers comes in and has looked great so far. I mean the Chargers didn't go out and sign a "smart and tough veteran QB" to lead the team. They latched onto Rivers and now they're reaping the benefits.

.

How many years did both of those players sit on the bench to learn 1 offense instead of 2

I agree with playing Jason but only if we are out of the playoffs. This team can win if we protect Mark and run the ball.

I think Joe has had this planned all along to go for it this year with Mark and then step down in the offseason and then have Jason be the man. Had we kept the same offense I would not be against playing Jason now but feel with the new O he needs one more year.

[skins4eva]

You know what? I have to agree with everything you have just said for RIGHT NOW!. I still think we can turn it around. Question is?????? Can we. We will see. After What this team did last year I cant throw in the towel yet.

Edited to comply with forum rules. ~ihs

I'm not throwing in the towel either....but, we need a gm and a capable front office...and a qb who can make all the throws.

[bedlamVR]

Yes because a GM worked SO well under the 7 years between Gibbs one and the dredful Snyder years. The thing I hate about these negative posts is they way they imply everything was so much better before Dan the Devil Snyder took over the team and we kept our draft picks and we had a funtional GM ... lets take a walk down memory lane shall we

1993 Richie Pettibon 4-12

1994 Norv Turner 3-13

1995 Norv Turner 6-10

1996 Norv Turner 9-7

1997 Norv Turner 8-7-1

No playoff appearnces 1 season at least 0.500 (just) 2 if you count 1997

Since Snyder

1998 Norv Turner 6-10

1999 Norv Turner 10-6 (the only 2 playoff appearance of the Norv years)

2000 Norv Turner/Terry Robskie 8-8 - Snyders worst hour canning the HC when we still could have made the playoffs

2001 Marty Shottenhimer 8-8

2002 Steve Spurrier 7-9

2003 Steve Spurrier 5-11

2004 Joe Gibbs - 6-10

2005 Joe Gibbs 10-6

2006 Joe Gibbs 2-3 (seasons over right)

4 Playoff games, 4 Sub 0.500, 4 years 0.500 and above

Also building through the draft is over rated the sucessful Redskins team of the 80s which no other team came close to being as competitve for as long always traded draft picks for proven players. Whenever we compare ourselves with a draft first team it is always the Patriots, Eagles or Steelers why not the Jets or the Browns or the Texans or the Cardinals?

Also no one ever compares how good our draft picks are compared to trades FA who would want Westbrook, McCants or Gardner over Moss, Randle El and Thrash say.

Finally Montes point is still valid skins4eva you may be a consistant negative poster but where were you last week ? Being negative is not the same as critical.

[scruffylookin]

Finally Montes point is still valid skins4eva you may be a consistant negative poster but where were you last week ? Being negative is not the same as critical.

I don't think it's a valid point at all unless people feel that skins4eva came to the conclusions he laid out in the beginning of this thread Sunday night after a defeat.

I don't doubt for a second that he (and many others) felt the same way about the situation with this team after the Jacksonville game. But why post something like that after a win, especially when you know the majority response you'll get is negative and people will dismiss it too quickly and call you brillant things like "fair weather fan" and other such mindless drivel.

I think sometimes just the opposite happens and I'm guilty of it too. After a win, it's very easy to brush aside the potential long term problems with this team and just enjoy the moment.

[skins4eva]

I don't think it's a valid point at all unless people feel that skins4eva came to the conclusions he laid out in the beginning of this thread Sunday night after a defeat.

I don't doubt for a second that he (and many others) felt the same way about the situation with this team after the Jacksonville game. But why post something like that after a win, especially when you know the majority response you'll get is negative and people will dismiss it too quickly and call you brillant things like "fair weather fan" and other such mindless drivel.

I think sometimes just the opposite happens and I'm guilty of it too. After a win, it's very easy to brush aside the potential long term problems with this team and just enjoy the moment.

Exactly--I'm not going to be a complete downer after a victory...I'm gonna enjoy a victory. But after yet another uncompetitive loss to a division opponent, I'm going to express my valid concerns about this team and this franchise.

[Buck812]

Trade TJ Duckett for 3rd round pick! We can get a nickel corner with it!

I would give him to Denver just to let us keep our own 1st round pick!

[skins4eva]

Yes because a GM worked SO well under the 7 years between Gibbs one and the dredful Snyder years. The thing I hate about these negative posts is they way they imply everything was so much better before Dan the Devil Snyder took over the team and we kept our draft picks and we had a funtional GM ... lets take a walk down memory lane shall we

1993 Richie Pettibon 4-12

1994 Norv Turner 3-13

1995 Norv Turner 6-10

1996 Norv Turner 9-7

1997 Norv Turner 8-7-1

No playoff appearnces 1 season at least 0.500 (just) 2 if you count 1997

Since Snyder

1998 Norv Turner 6-10

1999 Norv Turner 10-6 (the only 2 playoff appearance of the Norv years)

2000 Norv Turner/Terry Robskie 8-8 - Snyders worst hour canning the HC when we still could have made the playoffs

2001 Marty Shottenhimer 8-8

2002 Steve Spurrier 7-9

2003 Steve Spurrier 5-11

2004 Joe Gibbs - 6-10

2005 Joe Gibbs 10-6

2006 Joe Gibbs 2-3 (seasons over right)

4 Playoff games, 4 Sub 0.500, 4 years 0.500 and above

Also building through the draft is over rated the sucessful Redskins team of the 80s which no other team came close to being as competitve for as long always traded draft picks for proven players. Whenever we compare ourselves with a draft first team it is always the Patriots, Eagles or Steelers why not the Jets or the Browns or the Texans or the Cardinals?

Also no one ever compares how good our draft picks are compared to trades FA who would want Westbrook, McCants or Gardner over Moss, Randle El and Thrash say.

Finally Montes point is still valid skins4eva you may be a consistant negative poster but where were you last week ? Being negative is not the same as critical.

Are you being serious with this post? I'm being negative and critical. Both. Read the first post in this thread....we need direction...we need a qb who can make all the throws...this really isn't all that complicated. This team needs someone other than Brunell and we need to start addressing our weaknesses and stop ignoring them. Our front office and our coaches are like see-no-evil, hear-no-evil advocates. I mean, it's really upsurd when you think about it...just now, after struggling all last year, all throughout training camp and after missing a potential tying fg in week 1, now Gibbs realizes we need a new kicker? After being told prior to the game that Hall's leg was sore and he couldn't do kickoffs, he sends him out to kick a 42 yarder down 19-3? Joe Gibbs doesn't need us all to kiss his ass. He has completely screwed up several important decisions both personnel-wise and in-game management wise...we need a front office with enough autonomy to operate outside of Synder's sphere of influence...we need a front office not packed with Synder sycophants.

[TankRizzo]

I've been a front office apologist until the Duckett Trade....that move is just absurd.

[skins4eva]

I've been a front office apologist until the Duckett Trade....that move is just absurd.

That move should not be ignored...it should be called-out and used as evidence of the lack of coherent decision-making on this team. That move is indefensible. It's ridiculous.

[TankRizzo]

That move should not be ignored...it should be called-out and used as evidence of the lack of coherent decision-making on this team. That move is indefensible. It's ridiculous.

It really is...especially since they don't have him re-signed.

The extra picks given away (mainly to deals with denver) here and there, I didn't like them one bit...but I shrugged them off because they got the deals done. But sometimes you have to play hardball. We could have easily had Portis for Bailey straight up. Moving a bunch of picks to move up in the draft to draft a QB that they refuse to play...here a pick, there a pick, everywhere we're giving away picks and it needs to stop. We've screwed ourselves in the long haul and we're not even getting short term results! It's maddening.

[XxSpearheadxX]

Next year the Redskins have one 1st round pick, one 5th round pick and one 7th rounder.

When you really write it out like that, and really look at the junk heap the Skins have left after all these "moves" it makes me sick. Yay.

The least the team could do for us fans is lose every game with JC at QB, so at least they can get the #1 over all pick with our only 1st day draft pick.

Maybe they'll draft another QB so Campbell can have some competition for the 3rd inactive QB spot.

[TankRizzo]

Next year the Redskins have one first round pick, one 5th round pick and one7th rounder.

Yay.

Whaoh, whoah, whoah....easy there champ....there's still plenty of time between now and April to piss them away too! :applause:

[skins4eva]

It really is...especially since they don't have him re-signed.

The extra picks given away (mainly to deals with denver) here and there, I didn't like them one bit...but I shrugged them off because they got the deals done. But sometimes you have to play hardball. We could have easily had Portis for Bailey straight up. Moving a bunch of picks to move up in the draft to draft a QB that they refuse to play...here a pick, there a pick, everywhere we're giving away picks and it needs to stop. We've screwed ourselves in the long haul and we're not even getting short term results! It's maddening.

That's the worst part. And since Snyder-boy and his cadre of yes-men never learn, we'll make the same exact mistakes next season. My mother is convinced that we will never win a SB under Synder's reign, and there are times when I just can't disagree.

[bedlamVR]

skins4eva : "Are you being serious with this post? I'm being negative and critical. Both".

Really ? What are your solutions then to the poblems you highlight that are based on rational critizism and not some httr rantings.

"Read the first post in this thread....we need direction... "

I get from your posts that the first thing we need to do toget direction is abanondon what we are trying to do now? Get rid of Gibbs, get rid of Brunell just for the sake of change and do what ? Start a rookie before he is ready hand the reigns back over to Marty - themostborringmanintheworldwhowill nevergetpasttheplayoffs - Shottenhiemer and tear apart our team and coaching staff again for the hell of it.

"We need adress our weaknesses and stop ignoring them".

Comming off last year our weakness was the lack of WR talent, outdated offence and possibly the OLB. The kicking game did need adressing but with Hall apparnetly on the road to recovary it wasn't pressing - Which (with the exception of Hall) area was not addressed ?

"Our front office and our coaches are like see-no-evil, hear-no-evil advocates."

The team has changed things up throughout the year the long ball wasn't working so we had to try something else they haven't blindly kept doing the same thing over and over.

"After being told prior to the game that Hall's leg was sore and he couldn't do kickoffs he sends him out to kick a 42 yarder down 19-3?"

You need to score points to try and get things going you would rather we got stuffed on 4th and 1 and turned over on downs or punt from the 35 yard line - it would have been great to sub in Novak who has never made a kick longer than 40 yards in his career but that wasn't the option. Yes now it seems we need a new kicker but had Hall totally recovered and was back to his best any one we picked up in preseason would most likely have been a down grade.

"Joe Gibbs doesn't need us all to kiss his ass." - Actually a point I agree with

"He has completely screwed up several important decisions both personnel-wise and in-game management wise..." - I would love to hear those occasions based on the facts known at the time of the decision and not with the benifit of hindsight.

"we need a front office with enough autonomy to operate outside of Synder's sphere of influence...we need a front office not packed with Synder sycophants"

Where does that work - seriously name me one team whos general manager picks players without input from the owner, HC or coaching staff. The personel decisions are made here by the coaching staff and defacto GM Joe Gibbs - Vince gets together the information on the players - Snyder pays the money and thats it.

Okay heres the thing a negitve peron looks in hindsight and sees problems and constantly harps on and on and on about ...except when he thinks no one will listen.

I know skins you have hated several personel moves from the get go but you have done irrationally based on the hatred of Dan Snyder and his millions .

I cannot remember exactly but where were you on -

Bailey & Bell for Portis & Springs

Moss for Coles

Gibbs for Spurrier

Ramsey for Brunell - though i can guess that last one

[Hooper]

Patten and Duckett were both inactive last week because we have so much depth at running back and wide receiver. Think about what we invested in those guys.

Meanwhile, our secondary is a complete disaster while Ryan Clark and Walt Harris -- two guys we could have brought back for 1/3rd of Archuleta's deal -- shine for their new teams.

Unbelievable.

[skins4eva]

skins4eva : "Are you being serious with this post? I'm being negative and critical. Both".

Really ? What are your solutions then to the poblems you highlight that are based on rational critizism and not some httr rantings.

"Read the first post in this thread....we need direction... "

I get from your posts that the first thing we need to do toget direction is abanondon what we are trying to do now? Get rid of Gibbs, get rid of Brunell just for the sake of change and do what ? Start a rookie before he is ready hand the reigns back over to Marty - themostborringmanintheworldwhowill nevergetpasttheplayoffs - Shottenhiemer and tear apart our team and coaching staff again for the hell of it.

"We need adress our weaknesses and stop ignoring them".

Comming off last year our weakness was the lack of WR talent, outdated offence and possibly the OLB. The kicking game did need adressing but with Hall apparnetly on the road to recovary it wasn't pressing - Which (with the exception of Hall) area was not addressed ?

"Our front office and our coaches are like see-no-evil, hear-no-evil advocates."

The team has changed things up throughout the year the long ball wasn't working so we had to try something else they haven't blindly kept doing the same thing over and over.

"After being told prior to the game that Hall's leg was sore and he couldn't do kickoffs he sends him out to kick a 42 yarder down 19-3?"

You need to score points to try and get things going you would rather we got stuffed on 4th and 1 and turned over on downs or punt from the 35 yard line - it would have been great to sub in Novak who has never made a kick longer than 40 yards in his career but that wasn't the option. Yes now it seems we need a new kicker but had Hall totally recovered and was back to his best any one we picked up in preseason would most likely have been a down grade.

"Joe Gibbs doesn't need us all to kiss his ass." - Actually a point I agree with

"He has completely screwed up several important decisions both personnel-wise and in-game management wise..." - I would love to hear those occasions based on the facts known at the time of the decision and not with the benifit of hindsight.

"we need a front office with enough autonomy to operate outside of Synder's sphere of influence...we need a front office not packed with Synder sycophants"

Where does that work - seriously name me one team whos general manager picks players without input from the owner, HC or coaching staff. The personel decisions are made here by the coaching staff and defacto GM Joe Gibbs - Vince gets together the information on the players - Snyder pays the money and thats it.

Okay heres the thing a negitve peron looks in hindsight and sees problems and constantly harps on and on and on about ...except when he thinks no one will listen.

I know skins you have hated several personel moves from the get go but you have done irrationally based on the hatred of Dan Snyder and his millions .

I cannot remember exactly but where were you on -

Bailey & Bell for Portis & Springs

Moss for Coles

Gibbs for Spurrier

Ramsey for Brunell - though i can guess that last one

Where do I ever say we should get rid of Gibbs? Look through every post I've ever written--I do not say it once. If you're going to deconstruct my posts, at least do so accurately.

When I say we need direction, I mean we need direction. We need to have a plan, a long-term strategy and we need to implement it. I don't know what Brunell is, but he was washed up before he got here, and he is washed up now. He has got the weakest arm in the league bar none. We will not win anything with him at the helm.

The long-ball wasn't working??? How do you know that? How many times have we thrown it? Neither you nor I have any idea what Saunders may be saying to Gibbs behind closed doors. But, I guarantee you he's not singing the praises of Mark Brunell.

Name a team where the GM picks without the imput of the owner??? Philly, the Steelers, Cincy...just to name a few. The teams where the owner does have imput, Washington, Dallas, you see the problems that occur. Synder doesn't know football and he's always looking for the quick fix...he has no patience and does not seem willing to learn it. He is an absolute control-freak and cannot stand the thought of abdicating power to someone who actually knows what they are doing. He's involved in everything, personnel included. And that's a mistake.

Your comments about the 4th and 1 decision are absurd. Yes, I would have rather gone for it and NOT MADE it...at least that shows the offense that Gibbs has faith in them. Kicking the fg was gutless...absolutely gutless. Gibbs knew Hall's leg was bothering him, that's why he wasn't doing kickoffs. IT was a terrible decision and there is nothing you can say that can support it.

The Portis bailey trade was nice, but we didn't need to give up the 2nd rounder...that was ridiculous...our front office is a joke. We traded the BEST cover corner in the league for a great running back...it was an even trade on its face, we didn't need to sweeten the deal, but since our Front office appreciate draft picks we did.

Bringing Gibbs back was great, and I love that he's our coach, but I'd like to see more from him in terms of tenacity and in-game adjustment and personnel decision-making. The brunell decision will haunt this franchise--he's a terrible Qb.

[Hail Gibbs]

I have been very pleased with the personnel moves made by Gibbs & Company up until this past offseason.

Andre Carter, Adam Archuletta, TJ Duckett, and Brandon Lloyd have been flat out embarassing additions to this franchise. :mad:

....

I agree and would also add Brunell to that list. Paying what we did to get him at that stage of his career was a bad decision IMO.

Also the Skins have to start valuing their draft picks. I realize they are FA first, but why not go FA instead of trading draft picks to acquire people. Why give up 2 picks for B.Lloyd? There were FA WR who were out there that didn't cost picks. A 3rd/4th or possible swap of a 1st rounder W/ Denver for Duckett who has 1 year left on his deal, and appears only to be an insurance policy acquisition. Not very shrewd decisions.

Not sure who is to blame for these decisions, but they have to stop. We need our draft picks.

[DCMONEY]

Time to recalibrate the expectations everyone. I may be known by some as a pessimistic fan, but there's a reason for it. Ever since Dan Snyder took the reigns, we've been waiting for the big payday, thinking that with all the money Synder will spend, we'll be able to reclaim glory. Sorry to be negative, but it ain't gonna happen--I'll give you a few key reasons why.

1) Our front office has officially reached joke status.

a) Think about it: we give up a 3rd round pick (and potentially much more) for a running back, who even when he's active, we don't use.

We have guys on this roster who literally do nothing for the team: Duckett, and Patton, just to name two.

c) Our offseason acquisitions were some of the worst I have ever seen: We give up Ryan Clark, when it would have behooved us to keep him, if for no other reason than consistency, and we give a ton of money to a safety who couldn't cover an old man in a wheelchair. We give a ton of money to a reject from San Franciso, who can't stop the run and can't rush the passer. We sign two WR when one would have done fine, giving up two draft picks for one of them and we don't have a QB who can utilize them with enough frequency to make a difference.

d) We consistently give away our draft picks (read depth) for overpriced free agents.

2) Mark Brunell.

a) If any of you think there's a chance in hell that we can win the big game with this guy, you don't know football. He's way too inconsistent. Some weeks he looks good, other weeks he looks absolutely terrible, most weeks he just looks lifeless. We have no intermediate passing game...defenders don't even need to respect the middle of the field...everything he throws is to the sidelines, unless it's a screen or an 8 yrd roll-out.

3) Talent

a) What I really took from yesterday's unbelievably horrendous display of defense was that we just don't have the talent.

We have 4 quality nfl starters on defense right now. That's right 4: Griffin, Washingon, Taylor, and potentially Arch. in the right spot. Rogers, Rumph, Wright, Burns, etc. These guys might not even make other NFL rosters, that's how bad they are. Rogers could be a decent number two or nickel, but I've seen enough to know he doesn't have the god-given talent to be a real number 1 corner. He's just not athletic enough, and has no fluidity in his movements...oh yeah, and he's got some of the worst game speed I've seen.

c) Our D-line play and our LB-play is just as bad as the secondary. Yesterday, we played a real running team. You think other teams are gonna run it to Carter and Holdman's side? I think so too. Holdman and his disappearing act have returned. He doesn't have the physical talent. He's a completely useless player. No impact at all. Rocky needs to start asap, and I believe he will this week. Lemar Marshall--he's a decent backup, but this guy is not a quality MLB starter...are you kidding???? He's a C-level player. We could use a serious upgrade. And the D-line? Well, really, what is there to say. Griffin is having a poor year. Carter absolutely sucks. Daniels is an average at best player. The D-line is a joke. We have no true pass rusher, and our run defense at the corners is horrendous.

4) Coaching.

a) Sorry--I know it's a cardinal sin to call-out Gibbs. But, if this is the Gibbs that you guys remember, than we must not have been watching the same team. What I see these days is a coach on the sideline, who often looks confused.

A 42-yrd fg on the road, against a team our defense hasn't stopped all day????????????????????? That did it for me guys. It really did. One of the most gutless calls I've ever seen on a football field. It made me ashamed and embarrassed that this was my team--can you imagine how the players felt? That was the game right there, even if we had made the fg.

What's the future???

a) We need to start building the way successful teams like Philly, NE and Steelers build. Through the draft, and limited uses of free agency to plug obvious holes. In this offseason, LB and Secondary and D-line were the obvious holes...Arch and Carter, were not, however, the answers.

We need to see what Campbell can do. I'd rather go 8-8 with Campbell and have him learn and see what we have, then go 8-8 with a washed-up brunell.

:notworthy :applause: I agree with all you've said. I do think Marshall with Salve and Griffin in front of him, he's been decent though. You left out the Bears as far as Building a team throught the draft sprinkled with a few free agents. Lovie Smith in the same season as Gibbs. The Bears are rolling.

Al Koken made great statement to me yesterday. Bobby Beathard is some what disrespected by his name not being brought up enough with the success of the early Skins teams back in the 80's. That being said the Skins need a real GM and build through the draft instead of using free agency 1st to build. This method has been a joke for a long time now. :2cents:

[skins4eva]

:notworthy :applause: I agree with all you've said. I do think Marshall with Salve and Griffin in front of him, he's been decent though. You left out the Bears as far as Building a team throught the draft sprinkled with a few free agents. Lovie Smith in the same season as Gibbs. The Bears are rolling.

Al Koken made great statement to me yesterday. Bobby Beathard is some what disrespected by his name not being brought up enough with the success of the early Skins teams back in the 80's. That being said the Skins need a real GM and build through the draft instead of using free agency 1st to build. This method has been a joke for a long time now. :2cents:

Thanks for the response. Beathard is extremely deserving of praise, and definitely does not get his fair share. I would love a GM like Ozzie with a coach like Gibbs. But, the point is, we need a real GM. Vinny Cerato disgusts me.

[flylikeaneagle]

Bringing Gibbs back was great, and I love that he's our coach, but I'd like to see more from him in terms of tenacity and in-game adjustment and personnel decision-making. The brunell decision will haunt this franchise--he's a terrible Qb.

Thanks for taking the time to articulate what many of us have been thinking and wanting to share. This forum is supposed to be a dialogue about the team we love. Unfortunately, there too many people here don't want to hear constructive criticism. :eaglesuck

[G-Prime]

Our coaches suck!!! Point Blank!!! Joe Gibbs was a great coach just as Evander Holyfeild was a great boxer. I think he spends too much time managing his money from auto racing and the 5.7 million us fans are paying him. We are the people paying these coaches and they suck.

Dude.. throw yourself out a window. You say something atleast have the balls and/or brains to back it up with something..

Gibbs suck yuck yuck yuck, he's too busy counting money yuck yuck.

Uninsightful yet retarded... I LOVE IT!.

[dwills1]

I agree that the front office has made some terrible decisions.

Picture this:

Keeping anotio peirce and fred smoot, walt harris, ryan clark....I can understand that they didn't feel like Lavar wanted to learn the scheme....but if we would have kept those guys......and just signed a Dwight Howard or Abraham to come off the edge...this defense would be nasty....

but instead we let go of peirce, clarck, harris, smoot.....paid big money to carter and archuletta.....and now we are having trouble ......and ladies and gentleman...it's only going to get worse. I think our defense was better during the spurrier era.

I'm not shooting anything down....just stating the facts!

[kylecoursey]

Its totally the FOs fault.

Bad

WE lossed Ryan Clark for Archuleta

Robert Royal for Fauria

Matt Bowen for Doughtey

Ramsey (yes I said it) for Collins

Omar Stoutmire for Curry Burns

Joe Gibbs for Al Saunders (If it aint broke dont fix it) all it needed was a few aftermarket parts ARE and Bloyd

Good

Antonio Brown for ARE

Andre Carter added depth I think

Taylor Jacobs for Mike Rumph

Not Proven

B Lloyd

Not given a chance

TJ Duckett

Now you might hang me for the top 4 but team chemistry is huge and thats what we lost there.Hindsight is also 20/20. I will also say I am not jumping off the bw cause ive been a fan of the skins since I was a little boy so I should have come to expect it from this team.