The Elephant in the room

[desertfox59]

I hate to disagree, but I think the O-Line looks just fine this year, in very, very limited play time. The pass protection has been generally very good, and the lack of run production is more to do with the lack of CP running the ball with the injury. I think it does highlight the fact that, while I have loved and supported Betts and Cartwright for a number of seasons now, they aren't CP. I have high hopes for the double backfield possibilities of CP and Duckett.

You seem like a nice person.

[bubba9497]

Didn't here that show. That maybe so. I'm going by what Gibbs said after viewing the tape of the jets game.

Maybe they don't agree, or maybe they do, or maybe they both are just protecting players. Who knows.

But I do know that I would listen to Gibbs over Bugel every time.

I didn't here Gibbs saying anything negative about the backup OL in his press conference

[desertfox59]

I didn't here Gibbs saying anything negative about the backup OL in his press conference

I heard Gibbs say that they had concerns all the way across the board.

...Are you saying that the o-line isn't on the board (or boards)?

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Um...not sure I should respond...but I'm not talking about last year. Sorry about the confusion.

Yes but the point [from the person who mentioned Portis' 1500+ yards] is that we still have a strong running game. Our O-line should be judged on it's performance in REAL games not hinged on preseason glorified rehearsals/practices. I know this has been said [mainly by GW about the defense], but it bears repeating...A good poker player never shows his cards, EVER We have a complex running scheme and we don't need to give opponents film on how to defend it before week one. For cryin' out loud Portis' first carry was an 8 yard gain in Cinnci. There is no Elephant in the room with regard to our O-line's ability to block in the run game. Depth is an issue, but all and all I'd say our running game is the least of our concerns barring Portis' healthy return. :2cents:

HTTR!

[Jordash]

A line of reasoning I'm more comfortable with:

The combination of our OLine being very much a stout, finesse group and the fact the we are showing very simple playcalls does not add up to great performance. If we had straight up bruisers on the OL we might see productivity, but Randy, he's a finesse guy. Casey, he's a finesse guy. Doc, he's quite powerful but has lost weight and has been really focusing on his technique. The OT's don't even fit the bruiser mold. Jon is a great hard-nosed player and Chris is an incredible all-around tackle but neither of them are point of attack champions. Get some pulling and blocking schemes going and we will see our boys back.

There's my excuse.

[bubba9497]

I heard Gibbs say that they had concerns all the way across the board.

...Are you saying that the o-line isn't on the board (or boards)?

I am saying straight up, Gibbs mentioned several areas, Special teams, Starting OL, Defense giving up yards, Penalties... but never mentioned the second team OL.

In another article it was even mentioned the back up OL being improved over the Bengals game.

and Buges on the Riggo show pointed out how the OL showed improvement.

The backups, didn't give up a sack, Blocked for 16 carries for 68 yards, or 4.25 yard YPC

not bad

[desertfox59]

I am saying straight up, Gibbs mentioned several areas, Special teams, Starting OL, Defense giving up yards, Penalties... but never mentioned the second team OL.

In another article it was even mentioned the back up OL being improved over the Bengals game.

and Buges on the Riggo show pointed out how the OL showed improvement.

The backups, didn't give up a sack, Blocked for 16 carries for 68 yards, or 4.25 yard YPC

not bad

I know you are not saying that the Back up O-line is better than the starting O-line. I don't believe that and I think you do not either.

the points you make suggest what then? Maybe that the effort by the backups was better the starters? I wasn't trying to micro-critique all sections of our O-line. I was just commenting on how people were missing a rather important weakness (the o-line as a total unit) in our failure of a running game this preseason. You are only as strong as your weakest player/unit/coach.

Those are good stats, and good points you make, I agree not bad. They also suggest another elephant in the room (That's the third....it's a stamped!)

Why such poor effort by our starting o-line? If it "just the preseason" is the argument, then that begs another question: The preseason performance is important to Gibbs from an execution standpoint yet these guys didn't execute so is that lack of respect for Gibbs by our starters?

I know this has been said [mainly by GW about the defense], but it bears repeating...A good poker player never shows his cards, EVER We have a complex running scheme and we don't need to give opponents film on how to defend it before week one.

Agreed. You don't want to show your more complicated blocking plays. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the effort of the unit as a whole. The lack of execution of the fundamentals. This is not poker. You are giving away "tells" by just performing a vinilla play aren't you?

A line of reasoning I'm more comfortable with:

The combination of our OLine being very much a stout, finesse group and the fact the we are showing very simple playcalls does not add up to great performance. If we had straight up bruisers on the OL we might see productivity, but Randy, he's a finesse guy. Casey, he's a finesse guy. Doc, he's quite powerful but has lost weight and has been really focusing on his technique. The OT's don't even fit the bruiser mold. Jon is a great hard-nosed player and Chris is an incredible all-around tackle but neither of them are point of attack champions. Get some pulling and blocking schemes going and we will see our boys back.

There's my excuse.

This is a very thought provoking answer...I hope you are right. Never thought of a lineman as a finesse position .

Don't let the Dirtbags hear you say that. :laugh:

[Bang]

Vanilla vanilla vanilla.. the elephant to me is the lack of depth behind the starting five. One nick and it could be disaster.

But as far as listening to Gibbs yelling about how awful things are... I guess you bought his line of BS last year about the 49ers being a good team, too?

You can't trust a single thing that comes out of a coach's mouth in August.

And as far as an early post goes, the only thing stopping you from getting a show like Skinscast is a single click of the mouse.

It's free, it's Redskins, and it's available 24/7

http://www.bangcartoon.com/podcasts/index.cfm/fa/skinscast

Check it out, you'll like it.

~Bang

[Om]

Due respect, deserfox, but if you're seriously thinking that what we've seen from the running game in the 2 preseason scrums to date has any meaningful correlation to what we'll see come opening night, you're falling prey to the annual preseason hype machine.

Motion, scheme, targeted defensive players and tendencies, play sequencing, audibling and a WHOLE lot more ... we've seen nary a hint of that. All we've seen is guys lining up in whatever basic set is called in the huddle and running the basic, straight-ahead play as called, regardless of game situation, what the defense is doing, or anything else. And all this with a constant shuffling of personnel.

I think the term "vanilla" has been so overused it's largely lost it's meaning. What we are seeing on TV is NOT the "Redskins running game." Not even remotely. And what we see the REST of preseason won't be, either. We won't get a sniff until 9/11. Bottom line, the Redskins State of the Running Game cannot even begin to be judged based on what they have shown---or better, NOT shown---this preseason.

So, I see your baby elephant and raise you its daddy, linked below.

[Peregrine]

Its easy for a defense to stop the run when its seen the play 20 times already. A vanilla offense really helps the opposing defense. I wouldnt worry about it to much, at least till the minnesota game is over with.

[ouvan59]

You may be right but I thought they would be running these plays the way they are going to be run in the regular season... I mean why would you not?

Teams very rarely show their full offense in the preseason. And as for the running game do you think the fact that our #1 and #2 backs have a total of 4 carries this preseason has anything to do with it? Portis played 1 series in week 1. Betts played 2 series in week 2.

[budski]

And as for the running game do you think the fact that our #1 and #2 backs have a total of 4 carries this preseason has anything to do with it? Portis played 1 series in week 1. Betts played 2 series in week 2.

You see right there is the answer we are never going to be contenders with a running game like, much less win any games.

[3DaysLatr]

So, I see your baby elephant and raise you its daddy, linked below.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151096

Excellant read, thanks for the link. That is truly an elephant that is simply comical to see the media ignoring. Om, the eye-opener!!!

[50GutCheck]

Where's the 900lb Gorilla ???

[budski]

Where's the 900lb Gorilla ???

That would be TJ Duckett

[allskinz]

I thought this thread was about Bill Parcells.. based upon the title..

[bubba9497]

I know you are not saying that the Back up O-line is better than the starting O-line. I don't believe that and I think you do not either.

the points you make suggest what then? Maybe that the effort by the backups was better the starters? I wasn't trying to micro-critique all sections of our O-line. I was just commenting on how people were missing a rather important weakness (the o-line as a total unit) in our failure of a running game this preseason. You are only as strong as your weakest player/unit/coach.

:laugh: So back up OL played well against backup Defense means they played better than the starters????

Dude you don't even believe that :doh:

First off the starting OL had very limited amount of plays, plus the plays weren't done to gain yardage as much as too see some things how players did in certain situations.

your argument has jumped around a bit, but still you are saying that an OL that was considered one of the best last season with the same five starters that has the same coaching, that was 7th in rushing yards last season suddenly has forgotten how to block??? That in about a dozen run plays (in preseason) you can tell that they have regressed so much that it is now a point of concern?

:laugh: Your elephant must be pink... cause it sounds like you been :40oz:

OL is not a worry, one of our strengths, the backups are coming along, and Buges thinks he has found a couple keepers who could fill in if needed.

[desertfox59]

Vanilla vanilla vanilla.. the elephant to me is the lack of depth behind the starting five. One nick and it could be disaster.

But as far as listening to Gibbs yelling about how awful things are... I guess you bought his line of BS last year about the 49ers being a good team, too?

You can't trust a single thing that comes out of a coach's mouth in August.

And as far as an early post goes, the only thing stopping you from getting a show like Skinscast is a single click of the mouse.

It's free, it's Redskins, and it's available 24/7

http://www.bangcartoon.com/podcasts/index.cfm/fa/skinscast

Check it out, you'll like it.

~Bang

Hey that link was awsome. Thanks that's a pretty good show. Is there anyway I can upload that to my Mpio mp3 player?...I have 512Mb SD strorage?

I did buy his line that the 9ers were good. I think that Gibbs thinks that all teams in the league are good. I guess I just find it hard to believe that Gibbs would act like something other than he's not....unless it was for strategic reasons. If that is the case, he is a pretty good actor because he looked real ******!

[Stew]

I'm not so worried about the dirtbags (starting 5) as much as I am the dust bunnies (all the rest)

Well you wont see our back ups play together as a unit in the regular season. What you will see is a back up coming in when needed and stepping up their game to play with the rest of the starters. There have been good reports about Rabchs back up... Pucillo I think his name is, and good evaluations of Tyson Walter as well. Im more worried about our secondary without Springs.

[skinny21]

Some good arguments here... when I look at it from both sides.

One argument I have against the preseason position comes from something brunell said in postgame. I'm sure you all saw it, but his point that if you're running vanilla play calls then they should be that much easier to execute really got me. I'd always been of the mindset that its preseason, who the hell cares how good we look yet. Its all about talent evaluation etc.

I feel like our running game has been pretty bad, but the pass protection gives me hope. The fact that this aspect is (from my understanding) much more difficult for o-linemen than running plays, has eased most of the concerns I've had in this area.

The one concern I do have is the massive increase in 'protections', I wonder if learning all of these does anything to slow the progress of our line. Were we running the same offense as last year I wouldn't be concerned in the least, these guys played great together.

Last point... everyone talks about how high octane the rams and chiefs offenses were under saunders, but didn't they traditionally have terrible defenses? Not to knock Saundsers cause he sounds like a genius, but isn't this a little bit like praising arizona' passing game last year? Sure warner is pretty good and he's got great receivers, but how many yards would he have thrown for if their defense or running game had been top 10?

[Bang]

Hey that link was awsome. Thanks that's a pretty good show. Is there anyway I can upload that to my Mpio mp3 player?...I have 512Mb SD strorage?

I did buy his line that the 9ers were good. I think that Gibbs thinks that all teams in the league are good. I guess I just find it hard to believe that Gibbs would act like something other than he's not....unless it was for strategic reasons. If that is the case, he is a pretty good actor because he looked real ******!

Gibbs is always doom and gloom. while i agree with you we do have some rather large elephants trying to be inconspicuous, I think the biggest is the lack of depth on the lines. Hopefully we're not done making moves and manage to pull in another guy or two.

And as to Skinscast, yes, you absolutely can listen to that on your Ipod, that is what it's designed for. You can subscribe to it (FREE) thru Itunes, and download it directly to your ipod.

I'd also recommend you check out the rest of that www.bangcartoon.com site

Some good stuff there, if i do say so myself.

~Bang

[desertfox59]

Due respect, deserfox, but if you're seriously thinking that what we've seen from the running game in the 2 preseason scrums to date has any meaningful correlation to what we'll see come opening night, you're falling prey to the annual preseason hype machine.

Motion, scheme, targeted defensive players and tendencies, play sequencing, audibling and a WHOLE lot more ... we've seen nary a hint of that. All we've seen is guys lining up in whatever basic set is called in the huddle and running the basic, straight-ahead play as called, regardless of game situation, what the defense is doing, or anything else. And all this with a constant shuffling of personnel.

I agree with you about the plays we run... I'm talking about the effort. And I do think that has a correlation to what we will see in the regular season. These guys seem to think that you can turn the effort on and off and be successful, Gibbs knows better, hence his reaction (unless like Bang says Gibbs's reaction was BS).

After all....Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. --Redskin head coach Vince Lombardi.--

I think the term "vanilla" has been so overused it's largely lost it's meaning.

I don't even understant that phrase...I'm sick of it too. I don't even know what it means....either you have a successful play or you don't. it has nothing to do with ice cream or flavoring. And everything to do with the execution of the fundamentals, no matter what play you are running.

So, I see your baby elephant and raise you its daddy, linked below.

Thanks for the link....good stuff.

[desertfox59]

I thought this thread was about Bill Parcells.. based upon the title..

Where's the 900lb Gorilla ???

That would be TJ Duckett

:laugh: good stuff all the way around.

[skinstzar]

CLINTON PORTIS HAS THREE CARRIES IN THE PRESEASON, WHY WOULD YOU JUDGE OUR RUNNING GAME WHEN OUR RUNNING BACK HASN'T PLAYED YET???????

[Stew]

Some good arguments here... when I look at it from both sides.

One argument I have against the preseason position comes from something brunell said in postgame. I'm sure you all saw it, but his point that if you're running vanilla play calls then they should be that much easier to execute really got me. I'd always been of the mindset that its preseason, who the hell cares how good we look yet. Its all about talent evaluation etc.

I feel like our running game has been pretty bad, but the pass protection gives me hope. The fact that this aspect is (from my understanding) much more difficult for o-linemen than running plays, has eased most of the concerns I've had in this area.

The one concern I do have is the massive increase in 'protections', I wonder if learning all of these does anything to slow the progress of our line. Were we running the same offense as last year I wouldn't be concerned in the least, these guys played great together.

Last point... everyone talks about how high octane the rams and chiefs offenses were under saunders, but didn't they traditionally have terrible defenses? Not to knock Saundsers cause he sounds like a genius, but isn't this a little bit like praising arizona' passing game last year? Sure warner is pretty good and he's got great receivers, but how many yards would he have thrown for if their defense or running game had been top 10?

Not the same at all. SAunders didnt have Greg Williams in KC or with the Rams. What would Saunders offense do that would negatively impact the defense on the teams he was previously on???? Those other teams just didnt have as quality defensive coordinators as we do here in Washington.