"Waiting to get Blown Up" - Interesting Article about Troop Morale in Iraq (Merged)

[Popeman38]

Sarge, I'm curious why you think words can not describe what you have been through. Maybe I am just an unremarkable person, but out of all the words in the English language, I'm pretty sure I could make people understand the worst pain I ever felt, etc. IMO you could make someone understand if you took the time and wrote a book, and the listener was truely receptive.

I feel this way about minorities too. Sometimes people say "you don't understand what it's like to be black" or something to that effect. My response is the same to them as it is to you: help me understand. I will never experience what you've experienced, but I can fathom what it's like to have your life on the line, lose close friends, feel like your so-called allies are betraying you, etc.

Ever heard the phrase "...walk a mile in their shoes"? We can explain to you what a deployment is like. We can explain to you the fear we feel when deployed. But you will never completely understand the feelings until you do it yourself. Why do you think people make the same mistake generation after generation? Because you always say, "they don't know how I will react/what I will do/how I will feel". Then you try to pass on your experience to the next generation and they do the same thing. You have to experience it for yourself before you understand. No matter how amny words there are to explain it.

[waterwagen]

I had the opportunity to speak to a Marine LT back in NOV 05 he was just back from Iraq on leave, he said the place is an unbeleivable mess on the very edge of civil war and we are responsible for it. Also said ( the so called liberal media just scratches the surface of how really bad it is) finally he predicted we will be there for another 10 years.

One man is hardly a representative sample. I know a medic who was over there who says the opposite.

I agree with the soldier in the article who basically said that he's tired of trying to bring democracy to people who can't live together in peace. You can't force democracy on people. THEY need to have the mindset, and it seems clear that the Iraqis don't. Maybe they need to kill each other for a while before they will get to that point. Then again, there's been a lot of bloodshed in the history of the world involving Muslims and there isn't exactly a glut of freedom over there...

[Popeman38]

What's a "turd world country"? Is that the term that conservative thought leaders are using to describe the developing world these days?

Nice spin, Bird. Simply the way the military refers to all the s**holes we are sent to to restore order/peace.

[bird_1972]

Nice spin, Bird. Simply the way the military refers to all the s**holes we are sent to to restore order/peace.

Hmmm ... maybe I should similarly derogatory terms to describe patients I have to see in the clinic who are constantly complaining about being sick ...

[Popeman38]

Hmmm ... maybe I should similarly derogatory terms to describe patients I have to see in the clinic who are constantly complaining about being sick ...

Use logical steps to connect issues. 1+1=2. I spent 15 months in the Balkans. This would constitute a "turd world country" in that they throw their trash in the street, lob grenades at neighbors who piss them off, and are constantly killing over religious beliefs. So how, logically, does this relate to your patients?

[Leonard Washington]

i'm no soldier but the heat alone would destroy my morale.

this sums up my opinon on the war...especially the last line.

Steffey got up to leave the porch and go to bed.

"You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing," he said. "We're far too deep in this now."

[Sarge]

What's a "turd world country"? Is that the term that conservative thought leaders are using to describe the developing world these days?

Nope, that's my description. Is "developing country" the nicey nice term the left uses for Turd World countries where there is no sanitation, no order and few laws?

[Redskins Diehard]

I had the opportunity to speak to a Marine LT back in NOV 05 he was just back from Iraq on leave, he said the place is an unbeleivable mess on the very edge of civil war and we are responsible for it. Also said ( the so called liberal media just scratches the surface of how really bad it is) finally he predicted we will be there for another 10 years.

I know a few Army CPTs, a few Majors, a couple of LTC's, several LTs, some SGTs, SPCs, CPLs, PVTs, soldiers, Marines, very few Airmen or Sailors.

I recommend nobody take a single persons, or even units, thoughts as gospel. The perspective of a rifleman in Ramadi, an MP in Baghdad, a truckdriver in Tikrit, are all most likely going to be a little different. Throw in the difference in perspective among the different ranks, MOS's, services, and you are probably going to get a very narrow glimpse.

For those of you that have served you probably are familiar with the statement "if Joe ain't b******g, then Joe ain't happy". Soldiers complain...a lot. In the field, in garrison, deployed, and back home. They also get the job done and put that attitude aside when needed. They live in an anonymous world where rarely are their thoughts/opinions asked for...they simply execute. Give them a stage such as a major newspaper or tv news and you never know what you'll get

[Thanos]

When DOD took over nation -building from the Department of State it was the beginning of the end.But the US must see this thru to some sort of semi-positive conclusion.The world ,especially China(who's been positioning itself globally while we're bogged down in Iraq) wants us to fail.

The Not so sure a change in administration will mean a change in policy though.

[Redskins Diehard]

Sarge, I'm curious why you think words can not describe what you have been through. Maybe I am just an unremarkable person, but out of all the words in the English language, I'm pretty sure I could make people understand the worst pain I ever felt, etc. IMO you could make someone understand if you took the time and wrote a book, and the listener was truely receptive.

I feel this way about minorities too. Sometimes people say "you don't understand what it's like to be black" or something to that effect. My response is the same to them as it is to you: help me understand. I will never experience what you've experienced, but I can fathom what it's like to have your life on the line, lose close friends, feel like your so-called allies are betraying you, etc.

I don't think it is a case of "words can't describe" as much as "I can't use words to describe" what it is like. Certainly not in this forum...and if I thought I had a reasonable chance at being successful, I would publish a book. I could talk for hours and hours about it and maybe give you an idea, unfortunately I can't provide a short summary here.

[Sarge]

Sarge, I'm curious why you think words can not describe what you have been through. Maybe I am just an unremarkable person, but out of all the words in the English language, I'm pretty sure I could make people understand the worst pain I ever felt, etc. IMO you could make someone understand if you took the time and wrote a book, and the listener was truely receptive.

I feel this way about minorities too. Sometimes people say "you don't understand what it's like to be black" or something to that effect. My response is the same to them as it is to you: help me understand. I will never experience what you've experienced, but I can fathom what it's like to have your life on the line, lose close friends, feel like your so-called allies are betraying you, etc.

Man, you don't ask much, do you? :laugh:

I suck badly at writing, but I'll give a few thoughts. Mind you, this is just one man's experiences talking. Do with it as you please.

First, the kiddies have to go through their transition from punk assed kid to the military. That is a world shaking event in and of itself.

Then you end up on a plane going somewhere that you've never heard of before. It's cold on the plane, and you're sitting in a very uncomfortable seat if you're lucky, in cargo net seats if your not.

Now, imagine you and some of your buds had to get on a bus and go across the country to say…………..Chinatown. The real Chinatown. And stay for a year.

Everything is foreign. EVERYTHING. Imagine beaming down to an alien planet. The buildings, the streets, the sights, the sounds, the smells, the smelly people. The way the smelly people talk and act. EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT from what you grew up in.

Welcome to the Turd World. Little sanitation. No just getting a glass of water from the faucet. Well, unless you want a flaming case of the ****s for a week or two. Sidewalk café's where meat hangs in the open for awhile with a ton of flies on it. Garbage piled in the streets. It's nothing to see someone squat down and take a piss or a **** right on the sidewalk. People don't bathe or brush their teeth. You have sanddust in everything you own.

You and your buds stick together and start to become friends, because they are the only thing familiar to you. The only piece of the world that you knew that you have around. In the World, you may not like each other, but in Chinatown you overlook stuff like that, because they are Americans and they are familiar.

You eat together, you shower together, you work together, you sleep together, you hear each other snore loud enough to wake the dead. You see each other each and every day for most of the day and most of your deployment.

And you can't go home. You're STUCK there, and you don't even know when you are going to get to leave. You'd like too have some idea, because you'd love to tell the wife how long she's going to have to hold down the fort by herself, but you can't even do that.

You wait in line with 400 dudes to talk on the phone for a few precious moments. You'd love to be able to say something to your four year old daughter, who asks, "Daddy, are you coming home in a couple of days?" and all you can say is "I'll be home as soon as I can, sweetie" and it tears you up inside.

You're stuck.

You try to do things to pass the time, but that's all it is, is passing time. You can't even look at what we call a "countdown calender" to see when you are leaving. You think, "Maybe I'll get home for Christmas". You miss your daughters birthday and the touchdown your son made on the first play of the game

All that stuff you missed. It's gone forever and you can never get it back. EVER. Maybe someone took some pictures, you hope.

Then you venture out further into Chinatown. It's hot as hell.You have no map, you don't speak the langauge. You have to watch everything. You have your local taking you around, but you've heard the stories about how some of our "good guys" aren't so good afterall. You saw how we let some of our new "good guys" come on base and eat in the chow hall, and how the next day the shelling that you usually take got a lot closer to the chow hall or anything on base than it had before, and right around lunch too. This happened because one of our "good guys" had a GPS unit and recorded the location of the chow hall and gave that info to the bad guys.

Then something goes down. Time slows to a crawl, your system is shocked, but hopefully your training kicks in. A thousand things go through your mind in no particular order. Did Achmed get the drop on me? I'm pretty sure he did. I might die here. I might get something shot up so bad they have to cut something off. Are we outnumbered here? How many are there?

It seemingly takes a lifetime to get your weapon. Your buds are beginning to fire back or are closing in.

And then it's over. Your heart is doing a thousand miles per hour. You sweat like a pig. So does everyone else. You look to see if everyone is still OK

I thought, "Man, this was a lot easier putting a laser on some *******s and calling in an A-10!"

Then you thik of your family and ask, "Why the hell an I doing this?" yet again. You think you could orphan your kids and widow your wife. You think of your kids growing up without a Dad, or with another "Dad"

You do and think like this for a few months or a year.

Meanwhile, back home, the car breaks down. The toilet backs up. The washer breaks and puts water all over the floor. The door won't shut right. And your wife has to deal with all of that and the kids and the bills and being alone.

I don't even want to get into what the guys with maritial problems go through :doh:

Then, the day comes when you can leave Chinatown……..maybe

Next week

OK OK Saturday…….maybe

This time Wednesday for sure

If you've done this before, you know nothing is certain until you are on the plane and the wheels are up

And you come home to the airport. There's ballons and hugs and kisses, and everthing is right again.

Or is it?

You see, since you left, things have changed. The wife is used to doing things by herself now. The kids have their routine that doesn’t include Dad. "No Daddy, Mommy reads me my bedtime book" "I traded away that Gamecube game we used to play,Dad"

You're a stranger to your family. And it's nice that you're back and all, but we've been doing things without you and you're kinda messing up our routine.

It takes time to be a family again, and for awhile you find yourself back in Chinatown, sort of, but it's in your own house.

Meanwhile, you think about your buds, some of who may not have come back on the bus with you.

And you think, "I killed someone" "I killed a lot of someone's with the help of A-10's and F-15's"

99% of me has no problem with that. But sometimes, especially when I sit in church, I wonder, "Am I going to hell for taking a life?".

All you can do is ask forgiveness.

And you no longer like it when you daughter comes up behind and yells "BOO! Daddy!" because it startles you

And if you're lucky, a few weeks or months down the road, your life and family comes back together again. Some guys aren't that lucky. They drink, they smoke, they cuss, they wake up at night with nightmares. Their families can't handle it. Fortunately, theres a lot of good help nowdays for guys and their families with issues.

But if you are lucky that way, things get back to normal

Usually just in time to pack and go somewhere else

[Redskins Diehard]

Sarge

Sarge does a pretty good job here:applause: . And that is the high level, very general gist of it. Get into the day to day deployment experience, day to day return. It isn't easy, and it certainly isn't easy to explain. Hats off to Sarge, he did a pretty good job.

[CounterTrey]

Nope, that's my description. Is "developing country" the nicey nice term the left uses for Turd World countries where there is no sanitation, no order and few laws?

You have third World Countries and then you have developing nations which are actually NOT 3rd World Countries, these are countries that aredepp in an expansion phase of their economy like India which was third World but is rapidly becoming a developing nation now.

SO pls don't confuse those two terms. And say what you want but we've helped the Civil War in Iraq. Our policies esp in the Middle East enacted by Bush and his Administartion will do the eact opposite of what we wanted to achieve. There is now more hatred towards our soldeirs, they are simply targets wherever they go. Heck, if you wanna kill an American soldeir, now you know where to go - Go to Iraq. We stuck in this damn country, with no end in site, with foreign policies though of in a rush but no long term thinking at all. And now the the rest of the Middle East under turmoil, the heat is coming onto Bush big time.

In a way I do feel sorry for him, he had a lot happen under his 2nd term, and news isn't getter better, just worse everyday. I know the other Republicans are getting sick of his antics esp with the elections coming up in Nov.

SO Sarge, my dad was a Tank Commander and last year I was invited to fire some rounds from my favorite tand the M1A1 Abrams. Boy, was it an experience....I never knew how much information a Tank Commander has to dissiminate in a fraction of seconds. When did you serve and where?? ANd info on your service would be nice to hear from!

:2cents:

[@DCGoldPants]

Heh, heh, heh....take THAT, liberal media.

[Jumbo]

Thanks for that, Sarge. For me, there are reasons to give people personal respect as a choice, independent of common or differing POV's. You very effectively describe the kind of reasons I make that choice for many of the people I know. It's my privilege as a civilian to be able to frequently provide services to personnel from Ft. Lewis AB and McChord AFB these days. I meet so many admirable people. And the challenges and struggles faced over there are often replaced by formidable new ones when they return.

While I don't simply lionize one group of people over another as a rule, I always have believed that having a better understanding of what a person really has to deal with in their experiences can make us all wiser. IMO, we all have a debt to people who put their lives on the line as part of their choice.

[Sarge]

Thanks for that, Sarge. For me, there are reasons to give people personal respect as a choice, independent of common or differing POV's. You very effectively describe the kind of reasons I make that choice for many of the people I know. It's my privilege as a civilian to be able to frequently provide services to personnel from Ft. Lewis AB and McChord AFB these days. I meet so many admirable people. And the challenges and struggles faced over there are often replaced by formidable new ones when they return.

While I don't simply lionize one group of people over another as a rule, I always have believed that having a better understanding of what a person really has to deal with in their experiences can make us all wiser. IMO, we all have a debt to people who put their lives on the line as part of their choice.

Thanks for what you do, bud. It's really important, especially nowadays, to have the support back home, especially when we can 't be there. It means a lot.

I only hit the tip of the iceburg with my experiences. I wish I could put them all to words as elequently as Om, but thtat's just not my thing

But I believe the more folks know about what the military goes through from a personnal perspective, the better a choice they can make as to who and what to believe. :applause:

[The 12th Commandment]

:notworthy

Sarge, I hope you think we were worthy. Writing isn't grammer and spelling (at least not mostly) it's conveying thoughts. You did that exceedingly well. Other than that...what Jumbo said.

[swaroopm]

Heh, heh, heh....take THAT, liberal media.

I don't see your point.

[Sarge]

You have third World Countries and then you have developing nations which are actually NOT 3rd World Countries, these are countries that aredepp in an expansion phase of their economy like India which was third World but is rapidly becoming a developing nation now.

SO pls don't confuse those two terms. And say what you want but we've helped the Civil War in Iraq. Our policies esp in the Middle East enacted by Bush and his Administartion will do the eact opposite of what we wanted to achieve.

:2cents:

Semantics. I was in India just last Dec. Sure, they are getting an influx of jobs from Dell for all the Indian guys named "John", and there is some developement going on. But it's still a toilet

There is now more hatred towards our soldeirs, they are simply targets wherever they go. Heck, if you wanna kill an American soldeir, now you know where to go - Go to Iraq. We stuck in this damn country, with no end in site, with foreign policies though of in a rush but no long term thinking at all. And now the the rest of the Middle East under turmoil, the heat is coming onto Bush big time.

Our soldiers are hardly targets. When the brave islamic jihadis come out of their holes and decide to fight, we hand them their asses.

As for me, I just finsihed 22 years in the Air Force. Now enjoying the cakey civilan life

[skinthemboys]

Our soldiers are hardly targets. Whe the brave islamic jihadis coe out of their holes and decide to fight, we hand them their asses.

:applause:

Thanks for your service sarge.

[rtbasye]

Keep in mind the source of the article

yes, as g. gordon liddy would say the washington "bleep"

I concur with airborne skins- troop morale isnt fantastic over there but troops ALWAYS complain, and perhaps some of the comments are taken out of context. I would go back a second time if needed, any many of my friends have volunteered to do just that. I'd estimate that 70% or more of Soldiers know that we as a country can't just pull out of Iraq immediately and to do so would be to disregard the hard work, blood, sweat, tears, and deaths that our country has given to this point.

As Sarge Pointed out- this is just one newspaper's point of view.

[Midnight Judges]

Man, you don't ask much, do you? :laugh:

I suck badly at writing, but I'll give a few thoughts. Mind you, this is just one man's experiences talking. Do with it as you please.

First, the kiddies have to go through their transition from punk assed kid to the military. That is a world shaking event in and of itself.

Then you end up on a plane going somewhere that you've never heard of before. It's cold on the plane, and you're sitting in a very uncomfortable seat if you're lucky, in cargo net seats if your not.

Now, imagine you and some of your buds had to get on a bus and go across the country to say…………..Chinatown. The real Chinatown. And stay for a year.

Everything is foreign. EVERYTHING. Imagine beaming down to an alien planet. The buildings, the streets, the sights, the sounds, the smells, the smelly people. The way the smelly people talk and act. EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT from what you grew up in.

Welcome to the Turd World. Little sanitation. No just getting a glass of water from the faucet. Well, unless you want a flaming case of the ****s for a week or two. Sidewalk café's where meat hangs in the open for awhile with a ton of flies on it. Garbage piled in the streets. It's nothing to see someone squat down and take a piss or a **** right on the sidewalk. People don't bathe or brush their teeth. You have sanddust in everything you own.

You and your buds stick together and start to become friends, because they are the only thing familiar to you. The only piece of the world that you knew that you have around. In the World, you may not like each other, but in Chinatown you overlook stuff like that, because they are Americans and they are familiar.

You eat together, you shower together, you work together, you sleep together, you hear each other snore loud enough to wake the dead. You see each other each and every day for most of the day and most of your deployment.

And you can't go home. You're STUCK there, and you don't even know when you are going to get to leave. You'd like too have some idea, because you'd love to tell the wife how long she's going to have to hold down the fort by herself, but you can't even do that.

You wait in line with 400 dudes to talk on the phone for a few precious moments. You'd love to be able to say something to your four year old daughter, who asks, "Daddy, are you coming home in a couple of days?" and all you can say is "I'll be home as soon as I can, sweetie" and it tears you up inside.

You're stuck.

You try to do things to pass the time, but that's all it is, is passing time. You can't even look at what we call a "countdown calender" to see when you are leaving. You think, "Maybe I'll get home for Christmas". You miss your daughters birthday and the touchdown your son made on the first play of the game

All that stuff you missed. It's gone forever and you can never get it back. EVER. Maybe someone took some pictures, you hope.

Then you venture out further into Chinatown. It's hot as hell.You have no map, you don't speak the langauge. You have to watch everything. You have your local taking you around, but you've heard the stories about how some of our "good guys" aren't so good afterall. You saw how we let some of our new "good guys" come on base and eat in the chow hall, and how the next day the shelling that you usually take got a lot closer to the chow hall or anything on base than it had before, and right around lunch too. This happened because one of our "good guys" had a GPS unit and recorded the location of the chow hall and gave that info to the bad guys.

Then something goes down. Time slows to a crawl, your system is shocked, but hopefully your training kicks in. A thousand things go through your mind in no particular order. Did Achmed get the drop on me? I'm pretty sure he did. I might die here. I might get something shot up so bad they have to cut something off. Are we outnumbered here? How many are there?

It seemingly takes a lifetime to get your weapon. Your buds are beginning to fire back or are closing in.

And then it's over. Your heart is doing a thousand miles per hour. You sweat like a pig. So does everyone else. You look to see if everyone is still OK

I thought, "Man, this was a lot easier putting a laser on some *******s and calling in an A-10!"

Then you thik of your family and ask, "Why the hell an I doing this?" yet again. You think you could orphan your kids and widow your wife. You think of your kids growing up without a Dad, or with another "Dad"

You do and think like this for a few months or a year.

Meanwhile, back home, the car breaks down. The toilet backs up. The washer breaks and puts water all over the floor. The door won't shut right. And your wife has to deal with all of that and the kids and the bills and being alone.

I don't even want to get into what the guys with maritial problems go through :doh:

Then, the day comes when you can leave Chinatown……..maybe

Next week

OK OK Saturday…….maybe

This time Wednesday for sure

If you've done this before, you know nothing is certain until you are on the plane and the wheels are up

And you come home to the airport. There's ballons and hugs and kisses, and everthing is right again.

Or is it?

You see, since you left, things have changed. The wife is used to doing things by herself now. The kids have their routine that doesn’t include Dad. "No Daddy, Mommy reads me my bedtime book" "I traded away that Gamecube game we used to play,Dad"

You're a stranger to your family. And it's nice that you're back and all, but we've been doing things without you and you're kinda messing up our routine.

It takes time to be a family again, and for awhile you find yourself back in Chinatown, sort of, but it's in your own house.

Meanwhile, you think about your buds, some of who may not have come back on the bus with you.

And you think, "I killed someone" "I killed a lot of someone's with the help of A-10's and F-15's"

99% of me has no problem with that. But sometimes, especially when I sit in church, I wonder, "Am I going to hell for taking a life?".

All you can do is ask forgiveness.

And you no longer like it when you daughter comes up behind and yells "BOO! Daddy!" because it startles you

And if you're lucky, a few weeks or months down the road, your life and family comes back together again. Some guys aren't that lucky. They drink, they smoke, they cuss, they wake up at night with nightmares. Their families can't handle it. Fortunately, theres a lot of good help nowdays for guys and their families with issues.

But if you are lucky that way, things get back to normal

Usually just in time to pack and go somewhere else

Thank you for your service and thank you for the detailed, thoughtful response. I read every word carefully and slowly. You went above and beyond in answering my question, and you truely helped me to understand. What ever they pay you guys, it ain't enough. Thanks again for sharing.

[Popeman38]

Thank you for your service and thank you for the detailed, thoughtful response. I read every word carefully and slowly. You went above and beyond in answering my question, and you truely helped me to understand. What ever they pay you guys, it ain't enough. Thanks again for sharing.

Contact your Congressman/woman and tell him/her to give the military as large, if not larger, a raise as they gave themselves this year. Then have all your friends do the same....

[Redskins Diehard]

Contact your Congressman/woman and tell him/her to give the military as large, if not larger, a raise as they gave themselves this year. Then have all your friends do the same....

Here is what they are getting paid.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

Keep in mind that this is base pay. There are some variations based on different skill incentive pays(150 a month for jump pay for instance) and there is a housing allowance etc.

[Popeman38]

Here is what they are getting paid.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

Keep in mind that this is base pay. There are some variations based on different skill incentive pays(150 a month for jump pay for instance) and there is a housing allowance etc.

Oh, I know. I just got out on 02 Nov 2005 (Reserves) and 01 Nov 2004 (Active). But most people think we live the good life because we have housing (way worse than freshman dorms) and food (way worse than college cafeteria) provided for us....