I think Lebanon is okay with the invasion: am I crazy?

[RLeVan]

Lebanon has always been one of the the Middle East puppets. Not saying that the Lebanese are bad people, but Syria and Iran have played them like a broken fiddle. Why should they engage in war when they can manipulate others and never fear retribution. The same thing can be said about Saudi Arabia. One thing is for certain, these attacks won't solve anything. In addition, Syria's vain attempts at diplomacy should be taken for what they are, hollow.

[Thiebear]

This is how you figure out who the bad guy is:

If Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed and Palestine/Lebanon stopped firing weapons into Israel would there be peace?

If Israel completely disarmed would there be a genocide?

Point 2: IF you fight someone: Which side has military caches where there supposed to be: Which side hides them in a church or school?

________________________________________________

Yusof:

That would be a great point if it was true: Who is the Terrorist state that the US uses to further its terror? Israel? If that's the case see point #1.

[Guest 979guy]

Thanks Thiebear. Good points.

Meanwhile, I would like to commend Ms. Secretary of State for her cojones:

Rice makes surprise visit in Beirut

By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writers

Israeli ground forces pushed deeper into the country in heavy fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas on Monday as U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice made a surprise visit to Lebanon to launch diplomatic efforts aimed at ending 13 days of warfare.

Rice arrived in Beirut in the afternoon and was to meet with Prime Minister Fuad Saniora during the previously unannounced stopover before she heads to Israel, Saniora's office said.

Her mission is the first U.S. effort on the ground to resolve a crisis that has convulsed the Middle East and threatens to engulf other countries in the region. It erupted when Israel began bombing Lebanon in retaliation for Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers last week.

President Bush has opposed an immediate cease-fire, saying the root cause of the conflict — Hezbollah's domination of south Lebanon — must be resolved. His administration has said international peacekeepers might be needed in Lebanon once that issue is dealt with.

An Israeli military helicopter crashed Monday near the Lebanese border, and the military said there were two casualties. It was not immediately clear if the crash was related to fighting around the biggest Lebanese border town, Bint Jbail.

Israel said its troops captured two Hezbollah guerrillas, the first in the current conflict. "The two prisoners are located in Israel and will be held here with the aim of interrogating them," Brig. Gen. Alon Friedman told Israel Army Radio.

Fierce fighting was raging at the border as Israeli troops moved deeper into Lebanon to besiege Bint Jbail, nicknamed the "capital of the resistance" due to its intense support of Hezbollah during Israel's 1982-2000 occupation of the south.

Israeli artillery barrages sent plumes of smoke into the air and the military said soldiers moved in and took control of the area around Bint Jbail, about 2 1/2 miles from the border. But the soldiers did not capture the town, Israeli military officials said.

Ten Israeli soldiers were wounded in the attack, the military said.

Hezbollah claimed to have caused Israeli casualties in hits on five tanks moving on the road to Bint Jbail and around Maroun al-Ras, a hilltop village closer to the border that Israeli ground forces seized in heavy fighting over the weekend.

Bint Jbail holds a strong symbolism for Hezbollah. Signs around the city tout its nickname, earned for vehement backing of the guerrillas even while Israeli troops held the south. A day after Israel troops ended their occupation in 2000, Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah went straight to Bint Jbail for his first celebration rally.

Much of the town's population of 200,000 is believed to have fled, but many are still there. A Red Cross doctor who visited Bint Jbail on Sunday, Dr. Hassan Nasreddine, said he saw families crowded into schools and mosques and other shelters. He could not estimate how many remained.

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said in remarks published Monday that an Israeli ground invasion would not protect Israel from Hezbollah rocket attacks. He said the priority is for a cease-fire and was open to discussing ideas on how to end the crisis.

[nelms]

Well, given that you have a stupid and poorly thought out comeback for something meant to convey a point, count me in the category of folks that classifies you as a dingus.

It was a comeback worthy of an ignorant point you were trying to make.

[nelms]

I agree Israel is acting in self defense to this situation but bombing the whole country is not the right way to get back. Frankly these knee jerk reactions is what ends of making it harder in the long run to accomplish what you've set off to do. Articles are coming out now how our arrogrant way of behaving with the Iraqi public by certain regiments in the Army has increased the insurgency against us.

They are bombing exactly where the Hezbollah rockets are coming from. You can blame Hezbollah for that. As I've said before, Hezbollah is no different than any other Islamic terrorist group - they hide behind the skirts of women and the toys of children. They are cowards.

[Larry]

I still maintain that when someone continually spits in your face you eventually get to a point where you get sick and tired of it and want to take care of the douchebag that won't leave you alone.

Don't take it personally. Nelms does that to everybody.

[AlexRS]

Gee, I don't see the difference of what Israel is doing to what hezzbolah does which is killing innocent people.

Yes, innocent people are dying on both sides...

But seriously now, you see no difference between what Israel and what Hizbollah are doing?

Frankly these knee jerk reactions is what ends of making it harder in the long run to accomplish what you've set off to do.

This is not a knee-jerk reaction. This is an operation to achieve an objective. Israel's objective is to prevent attacks on Israel.

How long do you think Hizbollah has been preparing for this conflict?

[dockeryfan]

Is Lebanon OK with being invaded?

Seriously, even the implication is completely ridiculous.

OK with innocent people being killed.

OK with civilian targets being destroyed- runways, bridges, buildings, roads.

I'm sure they're OK with no fuel, electricity or water. Hospitals don't need those to run.

Many countries are syaing Israel is using excessive force, but you really aren't reading this in any of the papers. And you certainly don't hear it on the nightly news.

Most people don't know that the day after Israel attacked, there was a resolution drafted by the UN renouncing Israel's attack on Lebanon. It never made it to the floor because the US threatened to use it's veto. (Qatar was the country that drafted the resolution)

Israel's response is way over the top. I honestly do not see how people can defend Israel in it's use of force to kill so many civilians.

[AlexRS]

Israel's response is way over the top. I honestly do not see how people can defend Israel in it's use of force to kill so many civilians.

How do you feel about USA invading Afganistan after 9/11?

War sucks, no question about it. Yet do keep in mind that Hizbollah has been planning this conflict for the last 6 years.

I will readily agree that Israel's response is disproportionate to the action Hizbollah did to initiate the conflict. But if we look at the bigger picture....

We are not talking about action-response balance here. We are talking about Israel being forced to completely dismantle a terrorist organization created, supplied, and maintained with a sole purpose to attack Israel.

[Guest 979guy]

Israel's response is way over the top. I honestly do not see how people can defend Israel in it's use of force to kill so many civilians.

I wonder - in the papers that you read, do they mention the thousands of rockets launched from Lebanon on Israeli civilians?

Do they mention that this has been going on since ever, not only during the past couple of weeks of fighting?

Do they mention that Israel has done NOTHING to instigate it? That it occupies not a square inch of Lebanese land?

I don't know what papers you have been reading, so as a service, I give you this...

Give war a chance

Hezbollah starts a fight, so it's

time to teach terror a lesson

The scenes are heartbreaking. Mangled civilians, wailing children and wholesale destruction fills the landscape. Lebanon is being shredded by the whirlwind of Israeli bombs.

"Stop the violence" is the natural human response to these grisly images. It's how most of us feel and it's how United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan reacted, saying forcefully, "hostilities must stop." Thank God for that, for if it were easy to accept such suffering, all mankind would be doomed. It's the job of the UN to make sure that never happens.

Yet now is not the time to stop this brutal war. Human nature notwithstanding, peace is not always the best answer. Not when wrongs have to be righted. Sometimes, deadly force is the righteous option.

Like a schoolyard bully who deserves a thorough butt-kicking, Hezbollah needs to be taught a lesson. It can either learn to live in peace, or it can die. But it cannot win by playing the terror card and it cannot be allowed to think it's going to.

Most civilized countries acknowledge that Hezbollah started the fight by crossing the border to kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two. But a growing chorus of international critics and much of the American media are saying, as Annan did, that Israel's response has been "disproportionate."

The criticism, and its attendant calls for an immediate ceasefire, have three flaws.

First, to urge restraint is to suggest Israel should play by different rules than its enemies. Hezbollah, Hamas and the other Muslim terror groups don't warn Jewish civilians to leave a pizza store or a bus before they blow it up. They aim to kill as many as possible in order to terrorize the entire population. Israel, on the other hand, has dropped thousands of leaflets telling Lebanese civilians to leave and has taken precautions to limit civilian casualties. That about 300 are dead and thousands of others are displaced is tragic, but the blame belongs mostly to Hezbollah, which hides fighters and weapons in civilian areas precisely to deter attack.

Second, expecting Israel to limit itself to a tit-for-tat board-game response delegitimizes Israeli suffering, as though its individuals should not grieve for their dead or fear for their safety because Israel possesses more military punch. But with Hezbollah continuing to fire rockets indiscriminately into population centers, it has no moral standing to determine Israel's response. War is war.

Third, and most important, the call for restraint reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of terrorists. Their barbarism, including the beheadings of hostages, sets them apart from mankind. They have proven they are not subject to rational approaches. They are not interested in compromise any more than a mad dog will share its bone. Hezbollah and its Iranian patrons don't want to make a deal with Israel. They want to destroy Israel. And then America and Europe and Christians and ... .

From European capitals to American living rooms, one of the great debates today is whether we can talk to Islamic terrorists. Is there something we can say or do that will entice them to rejoin the human race?

Personally, I don't think so.

The only hope I see is that they must first be defeated and, like murderous Germany and Japan after World War II, they will then adopt civilized norms of behavior.

That is why Israel deserves our support and our gratitude. It is fighting for its own survival, and much, much more. It is fighting for the survival of the civilized world against the darkness.

Originally published by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Michael Goodwin on July 23, 2006

[dockeryfan]

I wonder - in the papers that you read, do they mention the ...

Then I guess you think the coverage is fair.

I haven't really been reading that kind of commentary until recently in daily papers.

Do a search for the UN resolution. It didn't show up on web searches until recently-like the 22nd . And the AP story was July 13th. You had to dig harder to find it before. Now it's on yahoo and cnn.

And yes, I feel Israel's reaction was disproportionate. Those Hezbollah rockets you speak of. Don't make it seem like Israel and Lebanon are losing the same amount of people. It is like slingshots vs guns and it is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

[twa]

What is it now, over 2200 missles launched at Israel in less than two weeks?

Two ships,a few tanks, a couple of Hummers...That must be a hell of a slingshot.

Sorry if they aren't getting killed fast enough for ya

[herrmag]

Then I guess you think the coverage is fair.

I haven't really been reading that kind of commentary until recently in daily papers.

Do a search for the UN resolution. It didn't show up on web searches until recently-like the 22nd . And the AP story was July 13th. You had to dig harder to find it before. Now it's on yahoo and cnn.

And yes, I feel Israel's reaction was disproportionate. Those Hezbollah rockets you speak of. Don't make it seem like Israel and Lebanon are losing the same amount of people. It is like slingshots vs guns and it is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

Sigh......Israel has made every effort to tell the Lebanese civilians to get out of Southern Lebanon.. They've dropped leaflets, they've made television announcements, et al. Perhaps they should just respond by firing a couple of rockets at Hezbollah and call it a day? That's worked so well in the past. You're right! Israel must leave Hezbollah intact so that in 6 months we can do this all over again.

[dreamingwolf]

one thing I always wondered, all these people glom onto the disproportionate use of force pill never mention the disproportionate morallity the muslim terrorists employ. Also, if my guys ever engage some other guy's guys I always want a disproportionate use of force to be employed by my guys, I want my guys to make it seem like they brought a knife to a gun fight.

[Guest 979guy]

Those Hezbollah rockets you speak of. Don't make it seem like Israel and Lebanon are losing the same amount of people. It is like slingshots vs guns and it is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

So you think that we should maybe lose on purpose? Maybe you think this is golf - to be played with a handicap?

We are fighting for our lives and existance.

Seriously, though, I don't expect you to get that.

[Taylor 36]

Then I guess you think the coverage is fair.

I haven't really been reading that kind of commentary until recently in daily papers.

Do a search for the UN resolution. It didn't show up on web searches until recently-like the 22nd . And the AP story was July 13th. You had to dig harder to find it before. Now it's on yahoo and cnn.

And yes, I feel Israel's reaction was disproportionate. Those Hezbollah rockets you speak of. Don't make it seem like Israel and Lebanon are losing the same amount of people. It is like slingshots vs guns and it is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

So let me get this straight, if a group of thugs or a gang didn't like the fact that you and your family lived in "their" neighborhood, regardless of the fact that it was one of their very own gang members who sold to you, legally and at a great market value, their house, you wouldn't do anything to help yourself out when they tried to terrorize you???

Scenario:

You move in with all of your family members, and let us just say, for arguments sake, that you have a very large family and several pets. Your entire family is now living under this great big roof, and you have invested everything you have into this house. Everyone is excited about his or her new house and bedrooms and the yard to play in, which is a great thing, because after making this investment you cannot move or go anywhere else for many years, even if your life depended on it.

After you have been in the house for a few days, in the middle of the night, a brick goes flying through your oldest daughter's bedroom window. She gets minor cuts and bruises from the glass and brick, but otherwise is physically ok. Mentally, however, she is scared to sleep in her room now by herself. You call the police, report the incident, they come out, look at the brick, read the message written on the brick telling you to leave or die, and say they will talk to the gang for you.

Two nights later, you wake up to find your back porch on fire. The fire department puts it out, says it was definitely started by your friendly neighborhood gang to warn you to leave, but not to worry, no real structural damage was done to your house, and so you can stay in there and be fine. They, of course, report it to the police, who tell you they will once again talk to the gang for you.

Two nights later, a firecracker comes through your youngest son's window. Your son is burned very badly and may not survive. You get the same response from the police that you've been getting all week. Therefore, you go out and buy your own firecrackers and start throwing them at anyone who appears to be a gang member coming on to your property.

A week later, a gun shot rings out, and your oldest son is hit by a bullet that went through the door. He is killed instantly. You grieve but get nothing more as far as help is concerned from the police than you did before. All of your children and your spouse are scared to be in the house, never mind go and play in the wonderful yard that they have waiting for them outside.

Three nights later, you awake to find that someone has broken into your house, killed both your dogs by slitting their throats, killed your second son, and kidnapped your oldest and youngest daughters. Once again, the police tell you they will investigate and talk to he gang and try to convince them to free your daughters and stop the senseless violence and killing.

At this point, I guess you just curl up in a corner, let your family get terrorized, and die as the days creep on, right???

Or, does the situation actually end with you standing up for your family:

Now, you finally realize that you can't just hope and wait for the police to take action, you can't just play tit-for-tat by throwing bricks and firecrackers at the gang members, and by God, you want your daughters back, unharmed.

The next day you receive your oldest daughters head in a parcel.

You go out and by guns, you equip your family members and yourself, and you tell them enough is enough. You are all going to die if you do not take a stand and do something once and for all. So, you all sneak out in the night, you find your daughter and rescue her, killing every gang member that comes between you and her along the way.

When you get home, you find that the gang has stepped it up, and has put landmines in your yard. They have also left you threats and have told you that no matter where you go, they will hunt you and your family down and kill you. You realize that the only way to actually have peace for you, your family, and for future generations of good, honest, hard-working families that don't want to be terrorized, threatened, injured, maimed, and/or killed for doing nothing more than trying to keep to yourselves in their own homes, is to eliminated this gang. It is too late to try to teach them, to reach them with understanding, and of course, the police will do nothing to stop them or help you.

So, you go out with your family, and other family members who actually have the intelligence and foresight to understand the situation for what it truly is, and you start fighting and destroying these gang members.

Some of them hide behind their own family members, whom some consider innocent, though they have never done one thing to stop the killing that the gang has been doing. The police and media say that you are going over the top, though they did NOTHING to help you or try to prevent this from happening.

Now, truly which plan of action do you take??????

[dockeryfan]

What is it now, over 2200 missles launched at Israel in less than two weeks?

Two ships,a few tanks, a couple of Hummers...That must be a hell of a slingshot.

Sorry if they aren't getting killed fast enough for ya

Wow.

I'm pointing out the other side of the story.

The I've been attacked and I'm not gonna take it any more side is pretty well covered in the press.

[dockeryfan]

Some analogy of moving into a neighborhood...

If you want to make the analogy truer, you have to evict people out of their homes, so I can move in. Then you have to set up a secure border around my house, with checkpoints in and out, remember people work in my house.

Occasionally, I'll go over my own wall to go attack the neighbors.

I'll get lots of money from an outside source.

In short, I won't do anything to help the neighborhood. And there will always be somebody who wants their house back or just wants to show he's strong enough to take me down.

Your analogy points out some things. When certain people move into the hood, they don't get targeted as much, because gangs know they are there to do some good. Sometimes the korean store doesn't get targeted because eventually nobody else will set up a store.

It's not like Israel is setting up bodegas to help the neighborhood.

[Taylor 36]

If you want to make the analogy truer, you have to evict people out of their homes, so I can move in. Then you have to set up a secure border around my house, with checkpoints in and out, remember people work in my house.

Occasionally, I'll go over my own wall to go attack the neighbors.

I'll get lots of money from an outside source.

In short, I won't do anything to help the neighborhood. And there will always be somebody who wants their house back or just wants to show he's strong enough to take me down.

Your analogy points out some things. When certain people move into the hood, they don't get targeted as much, because gangs know they are there to do some good. Sometimes the korean store doesn't get targeted because eventually nobody else will set up a store.

It's not like Israel is setting up bodegas to help the neighborhood.

Why can't you answer the question???

Don't try to over analyze the analogy with your perverted sense of history. Israel did not evict one person when it was re-established. It did not steal or take one inch of land that was not purchased for from these same Muslim governments that are trying to "evict" them now.

Check points and fences were put up and estblished due to the tensions growing in the area. The tensions were not a result of them.

Israel, had it been allowed to would have done a lot more to "help the neighborhood" than it already has. When everyone in your neighborhood wants to kill you just being alive, it is hard to really do a whole lot to help out the neighborhood.

Stop being such a tool and a media puppet about this situation. Or, is that your Muslim or anti-sematic, and you find this personal? Answer the question about my original post!!!

[The Sisko]

I don’t necessarily have a problem with them protecting themselves. Any country is within their rights to do whatever they can to achieve that goal (within international law). However, if self defense was really their goal they’d be limiting their bombing to Hezbollah related targets and preparing to send in ground troops to eliminate the threat as they did the last time.

However, what their bombing campaign is actually designed to do is to bring all of Lebanon to its knees to punish it for “harboring” Hezbollah and more importantly to intentionally create a humanitarian crisis so as to force other countries to step in and create the buffer zone they (Israel) want. This is a morally bankrupt policy and one that ironically has little chances of success.

That many of you seem to think we and/or the Israelis can bomb our way out of this is tragically comical. I will go on record as saying that if the Israelis continue to pursue this strategy of collective punishment and international coercion, what they will ultimately end up with is another failed state on their northern border in which either Hezbollah remains powerful or some other Islamic extremist group replaces them.

[dockeryfan]

Why can't you answer the question???

...

Stop being such a tool and a media puppet about this situation. Or, is that your Muslim or anti-sematic, and you find this personal? Answer the question about my original post!!!

You are getting very defensive and are resorting to name calling.

Your question is a loaded one. It's like answering the question "When did you last rape your daughter?" when you never did any such thing. Your question is based on a poor analogy.

It seems like you are the one who is buying into the media on this one. In complete support of the current military attacks. You know, the I'm fed up and I'm not going to take it anymore defense.

I like your comments about how Israel is handcuffed and that Israel "had it been allowed" would have done much more.

I would like to hear the facts to justify such a statement.

[luckydevil]

one thing I always wondered, all these people glom onto the disproportionate use of force pill never mention the disproportionate morallity the muslim terrorists employ. Also, if my guys ever engage some other guy's guys I always want a disproportionate use of force to be employed by my guys, I want my guys to make it seem like they brought a knife to a gun fight.

So you are ok with targeting innocent people? Because that is what Hezbollah does

[Air Force Cane]

Some decent analysis there Ignatius...

Here is the real deal- you only have to watch Hebrew Israeli Mabat News to follow things. There are incursions into Hizbullah strongholds (Bint Jubail, Manour A-Raz) and other raids to take out their Katyushas.

there is not a 1982 style ground invasion- that would have the IDF pinned down on the roads, and only lead to them pulling out with Hizbullah taking credit a few months down the line.

Of course most of the Lebanese government wants Hizbullah to be destroyed- they are not stooges of syria and Iran. but they are too weak to do it themselves (see what happens to those who dissent from Assad= Rafik Harriri)

Saudi Arabia, the GCC, Egypt and Jordan are SUNNI regimes. Hizbullah is Iranian backed SHIA. therefore the Sunni would like to destroy Hizbullah and stop Iran, because they are next on the chopping block after Israel is destroyed.

[herrmag]

I don’t necessarily have a problem with them protecting themselves. Any country is within their rights to do whatever they can to achieve that goal (within international law). However, if self defense was really their goal they’d be limiting their bombing to Hezbollah related targets and preparing to send in ground troops to eliminate the threat as they did the last time.

However, what their bombing campaign is actually designed to do is to bring all of Lebanon to its knees to punish it for “harboring” Hezbollah and more importantly to intentionally create a humanitarian crisis so as to force other countries to step in and create the buffer zone they (Israel) want. This is a morally bankrupt policy and one that ironically has little chances of success.

That many of you seem to think we and/or the Israelis can bomb our way out of this is tragically comical. I will go on record as saying that if the Israelis continue to pursue this strategy of collective punishment and international coercion, what they will ultimately end up with is another failed state on their northern border in which either Hezbollah remains powerful or some other Islamic extremist group replaces them.

Examples please. I'd like to know what Israel has attacked to inflict "collective punishment". I keep hearing people say this, yet nobody can provide concrete examples. Again, Israel has told the Lebanese people to get out of certain areas or they will end up dead. 4 members of my family were fortunate enough to return from Lebanon last week. It was WELL KNOWN where in Lebanon to go and not go. Certain roads heading towards Syria were a no-no. Southern Lebanon in general is not a place anyone was heading (unless they sided with Hezbollah). Terrorists use "civilians" (although I question how many of these civilians dying are actually members of Hezbollah) as a way to garner international empathy. Well, I for one am not buying it anymore.

P.S. The Israeli's have crossed the border with ground troops now. They have taken over a Lebanese village that is a stronghold for Hezbollah. In fact, they started a ground assault at least a week ago, didn't they?

[Ignatius J.]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I think one thing that I would be more clear about is that I think Lebanon is probably a lot more pissed off about the bombings than about the invasion. The ground forces in the south of lebanon probably don't bother your average lebanese citizen so much, especially when comapared to the destruction in Beirut.

Now I might be wrong here, but is beirut really part of the hezbollah stronghold? I am under the impression that it is not, and yet it is being attacked. i think the images of beirut are where the international community is getting really fired up. Many people go to beirut and in thier everyday interactions with the place, hezbollah is probably not the first thing that springs to mind. So in "disproportionate response" I think they are referring to the bombings in beirut. I understand that the lebanese are pissed, but I imagine israel is attacking legitimate targets. Perhaps they could have been more careful, perhaps not. I don't know.

I guess that the point of my post here is that the ground invasion is probably not something that most lebanese are wholeheartedly against. If it could have come without the damage in beirut it probably would have served as a better chance to turn the lebanese against hezbollah, but for now, I trust that israel could not succeed in the south without damaging logistics centers in the north.