Did anti-semitism in Christianity lay the foundation for the Holocaust?

[twa]

Chom ,if you are really interested, research the pagan influences on German (and nieghboring peoples)"christianity" if you wish to understand how Hiltler managed the people and the racial cleansing..

It is way too involved for a message board discusion,but I can recomend some books.

[Popeman38]

If you change anti-Americanism to American Imperialism, then i would agree with you, they speak of it when ever they can.

But the inherent teachings of Islam in no way teaches Muslims to attack "Americans". Just as the inherent teachings of the Bible in no way teach Christians to attack the Jews. Completely the opposite. The Bible speaks of the Jews as God's chosen people. It teaches that there is a special place in God's heart for the Jews. If these are the teachings of God, and the Bible is the inherent Word of God, how could anyone say that Christianity teaches anti-Semitism?

Were the Jews responsible for Jesus' death? No. Jesus would have died had he been born Asian, African or American. He was sent to die. Did he die in Israel, an area controlled by the Jews as part of the Roman Empire? Yes. But think about it. If someone had been born in Boston at the time of the Revolution claiming to be the Son of God, do you think we would have accepted him as such? Or would he be considered blasphemis?

[autographcollector]

But the inherent teachings of Islam in no way teaches Muslims to attack "Americans". Just as the inherent teachings of the Bible in no way teach Christians to attack the Jews. Completely the opposite. The Bible speaks of the Jews as God's chosen people. It teaches that there is a special place in God's heart for the Jews. If these are the teachings of God, and the Bible is the inherent Word of God, how could anyone say that Christianity teaches anti-Semitism?

Were the Jews responsible for Jesus' death? No. Jesus would have died had he been born Asian, African or American. He was sent to die. Did he die in Israel, an area controlled by the Jews as part of the Roman Empire? Yes. But think about it. If someone had been born in Boston at the time of the Revolution claiming to be the Son of God, do you think we would have accepted him as such? Or would he be considered blasphemis?

[iheartskins]

I really wish we'd all read Carroll's book, even those who disagree with its premise...

I think many of you are taking Carroll's tone as antagonistic, when it's not--it's far more conciliatory and discussion based than defamatory and inciteful.

[Cdowwe]

Chom if youre asking if Catholics anti semitism laid the foundation for the Holocuast, you should change your thread title from Christianity to Catholicism. As pointed out, not all Christians are Catholic. But in no way am I saying Catholics are to blame, just pointing this out again.

[rebornempowered]

OK, well where did the anti-Semitism come from then?

20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year." Genesis 17:20-21

Just one thought.

[techboy]

OK, well where did the anti-Semitism come from then? I agree that it was practiced through the centuries, but where does the hatred come from, and why was it ingrained in the culture? I (well, actually many many people beofre me) contended that it was from the killing of Christ.

Several things, probably:

1)Resentment by early Christians (many of them former Jews) that Jews did not accept their Messiah.

2)Resentment that the Jews "killed Christ".

3)Resentment because while Christian theology of the day prevented loaning money at interest, Jews had no such restriction, and so tended to be bankers, and wealthy, and hated for it. Class jealousy is not a new phenomenon. The Merchant of Venice is actually an excellent portrayal of this. In Germany, Jewish bankers were the focus of similar outrage that Hitler exploited.

4)Simple hatred of those who are "different"

5) Lots of other things, I'm sure.

I'm just going of the top of my head, but I think those will do. In short, it was the result of man's sinful nature and willingness to hate. Many Christians (and non-Christians), looking for a reason for their hatred, went looking for one and found it.

In short, when you say "Christianity", the term seems to imply that you mean the teachings of Christ and the Bible. I categorically reject the assertion that the teachings of Christ and the Bible are anti-semitic.

If by "Christianity", you mean the teachings of sinful men, where some Christians have chosen to use the Bible as a prop for their hatred, then you're obviously right. And yes, that obviously includes the Church, which at times pursued very anti-semitic policies.

From what I was taught, they were not Jewish, only Judas was.

You were taught wrong. All Jewish. For instance, look at Acts 15: 6-11

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Notice the contrast between the Gentiles (non-Jews) and "us" including Peter, the Apostles, and the elders (Jews)?

Did they teachings of the church and their anti-Semitic stance create the culture for the Holocaust to happen?

I addressed this question above.

[techboy]

20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year." Genesis 17:20-21

Just one thought.

I don't think he's talking about anti-semitism in the Islamic world.

[Predicto]

Couple of questions for those who immediately bashed on Chomerics for even raising this issue.

1) Do you think that anti-semitism primarily was invented by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, or do you think that Hitler's twisted ideology somehow "tapped in" to a deep pre-existing vein of anti-semitism in the German culture?

2) If you think that anti-semitism is primary a German problem, how do you explain the pograms in Russia or the Inquistion in Spain, both of which predate the rise of Hitler?

3) I have a good friend who was a child in a primarily Jewish neighborhood in Boston in the 1950-60s. He used to have to deal with roving gangs of Irish Catholic schoolboy thugs who would come into his neighborhood with the express purpose of beating up some Jews as punishment for "killing Christ." Where do you think they might have gotten this impression?

[Seabee1973]

I think you have to look farther than the book. Hitlers and the germans main hatred for the Jews started and really grew after WW1 as we know it. The germans blamed the Jews for there Loss in WW1 that is what really inspired Hitler.

I dont blame the jews for killing Christ he was sent here he knew what was going to happen even tried to not have it happen but had it not where would we be today?

The crucifying of christ does not rest with the jews alone anyone that did not stop it was to blame that includes pilate and the roman emperor.

There is a good magazine to read it is called Isreal, my god my my glory A lot of people are under the assumptions because Jews rejected jesus as the messiah and put him to death that they are no longer Gods chosen one That is simply not true

[Popeman38]

Couple of questions for those who immediately bashed on Chomerics for even raising this issue.

1) Do you think that anti-semitism primarily was invented by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, or do you think that Hitler's twisted ideology somehow "tapped in" to a deep pre-existing vein of anti-semitism in the German culture?

No, Hitler did not invent anti-Semitism. No where on here is it claimed he did.

2) If you think that anti-semitism is primary a German problem, how do you explain the pograms in Russia or the Inquistion in Spain, both of which predate the rise of Hitler?

Never claimed it was solely a German problem. Thread title refers to the Holocaust, which happened to be perpetrated by Nazi-Germany.

3) I have a good friend who was a child in a primarily Jewish neighborhood in Boston in the 1950-60s. He used to have to deal with roving gangs of Irish Catholic schoolboy thugs who would come into his neighborhood with the express purpose of beating up some Jews as punishment for "killing Christ." Where do you think they might have gotten this impression?

No where on this thread does it say man did not teach anti-Semitism. Simply rebutting the claim the Christianity laid the foundation for the Holocaust.

[dreamingwolf]

Predicto I would suggest group hatred of people other than your own group has existed longer than any religion, and sometimes people twist peoples religion to aid in fanning that hatred to meet other goals.

[Predicto]

Chom if youre asking if Catholics anti semitism laid the foundation for the Holocuast, you should change your thread title from Christianity to Catholicism. As pointed out, not all Christians are Catholic. But in no way am I saying Catholics are to blame, just pointing this out again.

I agree that the discussion is properly directed not at the teachings of Christ himself, but at the actions of the "Church," however that is defined.

I would point out that anti-semitism has been a major factor in Russia and other areas of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has been split apart from the Roman Catholic Church for over a thousand years. It has also been prevalent in many areas where various Protestant sects are dominant, and it has an unfortunate history in the USA as well. The KKK, for example, is both anti-semetic and anti-Catholic to the extreme.

It appears that there is a common thread underlying this phenomenon that transcends the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Understanding that thread is a valuable exercise.

[Beaudry]

No, its overly-sensitive, "us against the world" Christian responses like this one that turn this into a bashing thread. Chom started a perfectly reasonable thread for discussion, and you and the other zealots instantly turned it into something negative.

Like it or not, history is history.

As usual, jrockster, you couldn't be more wrong. You could try, but you would be unsuccessful.

Chom started a thread titled "Was the Holocaust a result of Christianity?" That wasn't even the point he was trying to argue. Chom himself (and everybody else in the thread) agrees that at best christianity contributing or should have done more to stop. Certainly nobody is stepping up to the plate to say "yes, the holocaust was CAUSED by christianity."

iheartskins- I'll start a spinoff thread titled "Is AIDS a result of black people?" I'm sure I can find one source who says that it originated in Africa. How long will that one fly?

Why is it that only the Bible can cause people to have racist beliefs? I hate all people from Madagascar, but I didn't get that from the bible. I got that from that movie, "Madagascar".

[Predicto]

Predicto I would suggest group hatred of people other than your own group has existed longer than any religion, and sometimes people twist peoples religion to aid in fanning that hatred to meet other goals.

Absolutely. Just ask the Tutsis in Rwanda.

But it sure seems like the Jews got more than their fair share of this treatment over the centuries in Christian countries, and I think it is not illegitimate to ask why.

Let's put Chomerics' question another way that may not rub people so wrong: If Hitler had primarily directed his hateful idology toward any other group than the Jews, do you think it would have been so successful and do you think it could have led to a Holocaust?

I don't think so, myself, and I wonder why the ground was so fertile for these seeds of hatred with regard to the Jews. It is a fair topic of dicussion.

[iheartskins]

iheartskins- I'll start a spinoff thread titled "Is AIDS a result of black people?" I'm sure I can find one source who says that it originated in Africa. How long will that one fly?

Beaudry,

If you have a source that's been peer-reviewed as well as James Carroll's book that posits that "AIDS is a result of black people," then feel free to start such a thread, otherwise, I'd advise against it.

-ihs.

[Popeman38]

Beaudry,

If you have a source that's been peer-reviewed as well as James Carroll's book that posits that "AIDS is a result of black people," then feel free to start such a thread, otherwise, I'd advise against it.

-ihs.

IHS,

While I agree 100% with your statement, I think the point Beaudry is trying to make is that he would be crucified for starting such a thread. I think he could have chosen a better topic to illustrate the inflammatory subject that this thread could be seen as containing....

[Predicto]

Chom started a thread titled "Was the Holocaust a result of Christianity?" That wasn't even the point he was trying to argue. Chom himself (and everybody else in the thread) agrees that at best christianity contributing or should have done more to stop. Certainly nobody is stepping up to the plate to say "yes, the holocaust was CAUSED by christianity."

Actually, plenty of people are asking whether there is something in traditional Christian teachings or early Church history that fostered anti-semitism and made the Holocaust possible. I know I am. I'm not trying to attack Christions by doing so, but I am asking that question. Maybe it is just a matter of how the question is phrased.

iheartskins- I'll start a spinoff thread titled "Is AIDS a result of black people?" I'm sure I can find one source who says that it originated in Africa. How long will that one fly?

I don't understand what you are saying here.

Why is it that only the Bible can cause people to have racist beliefs? I hate all people from Madagascar, but I didn't get that from the bible. I got that from that movie, "Madagascar".

Who said "only the Bible" and who is talking about "racism?" Racism is common the world over and throughout history. The question here is about the remarkable depth of anti-semitic feeling in 1930s Germany and where that came from.

[Zguy28]

Couple of questions for those who immediately bashed on Chomerics for even raising this issue.

1) Do you think that anti-semitism primarily was invented by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, or do you think that Hitler's twisted ideology somehow "tapped in" to a deep pre-existing vein of anti-semitism in the German culture?

No, but he was unarguably the catalyst for the Holocaust during the war.

2) If you think that anti-semitism is primary a German problem, how do you explain the pograms in Russia or the Inquistion in Spain, both of which predate the rise of Hitler?[/Quote]I don't. The thread is about the holocaust. The Spanish Inquisition was started by the King of Spain to discover Muslims and Jews who had falsely converted to Christianity. They were afraid these folks would open the doors to their cities to Turkish invaders. The Turks in 1480 attacked the south Italian city of Otranto. 12,000 people were killed, the rest made slaves. The Turks killed every cleric in the city and sawed the archbishop in two.

It had no jurisdiction over openly professing Muslims and Jews.

3) I have a good friend who was a child in a primarily Jewish neighborhood in Boston in the 1950-60s. He used to have to deal with roving gangs of Irish Catholic schoolboy thugs who would come into his neighborhood with the express purpose of beating up some Jews as punishment for "killing Christ." Where do you think they might have gotten this impression?

That's just ugly and pure hate. "Killing Christ" was and still is just an excuse to bully on someone who's different.

I've got my own comparable story. I used to work for an HVAC company and did work in DC occasionally. One day my friend/coworker goes to a section of SE Washington to install equipment. When he and his helper get out of the truck, they immediately notice a group of men 1 block away drinking 40 oz beers in front of a liquor store. One says rather loudly "what are these white mother******s doing down here?" as he gestures at them. They just got in the truck and left. :2cents:

[Air Force Cane]

did you just make up that "Judas" means "Jew"?

it certainly does not in Hebrew..

[Air Force Cane]

As a Jew and a military historian who has studied the Nazi regime for 15 years this is an issue which has many aspects of investigation.

You can not say there is simply ONE explanation for the genocide against the Jews- Adolf Hitler was Austrian after all.

Clearly, the official anti-semitism of the Church played a very large role in the ability of the Germans to get away with their actions- Poland and France were extremely anti-semitic and collaborated in many instances.

On the other hand, many Priests and Christians were righteous and defended the Jews, at the cost of their own lives. Aryan mythology, grievances from the Versailles Treaty, Church malice towards those who committed deicide, and the need for a scapegoat for the Great Depression all added up to a murderous mix.

[rebornempowered]

did you just make up that "Judas" means "Jew"?

it certainly does not in Hebrew..

It isn't in Greek either. The closest it gets is that it is translated Judah when referencing the tribe of Judah.

[Zguy28]

did you just make up that "Judas" means "Jew"?

it certainly does not in Hebrew..

It isn't in Greek either. The closest it gets is that it is translated Judah when referencing the tribe of Judah.

Is "Judah" where the English word "Jew" came from?

[rebornempowered]

Is "Judah" where the English word "Jew" came from?

Strongs Greek #2453 is translated Jew = Judean

[dreamingwolf]

Absolutely. Just ask the Tutsis in Rwanda.

But it sure seems like the Jews got more than their fair share of this treatment over the centuries in Christian countries, and I think it is not illegitimate to ask why.

Let's put Chomerics' question another way that may not rub people so wrong: If hitler had primarily directed his hateful idology toward any other group than the Jews, do you think it would have been so successful and do you think it could have led to a Holocaust?

I don't think so, myself, and I wonder why the ground was so fertile for these seeds of hatred with regard to the Jews. It is a fair topic of dicussion.

I would say yes, and I think the persecution of the Templars would be a good example of it. They were christians, but they had a resource a king wanted and he used "christianity" as a way to take it. I think what some people overlook when they want to shame another persons faith is that while yes men will use religion to abuse other groups, its not the religion that is the motivating cause itself its the greed and other sins of the man or men that manipulate the religion/government/tribe whatever to achieve their own goals.

Aslong as people like hitler can come to power, and theres a small group with a lot of resources that the he cant reach he will seize them in the same fashion. concentration camps, siberia and the other horrific punishments that maniacal leaders levy on small groups has a profound impact on the other small groups under his rule.

Also I think one of the reasons the Jews have been the victim so many times across Europe over the years is cause they were always one of the smallest groups, with few or no allies to give ruthless leaders pause when contemplating abusing them for their own personal gain.