Not every Redskin is a HOFer

[whatmeworry]

just his overall accuracy, and lack of distance range keeps him on the fringe

I agree with your list for the most part. I'd take Joey T off and bump Butz up to the list that belongs.

[grhqofb5]

That 1987 team was probably one of the 5-10 weakest SB winners.

Petey, is that you? You sneaky little devil... You know your friends at SI don't like you coming on these boards. :no:

[OriginalWhizzinator]

Apparently Pete King will reconsider his position on Monk for the coming vote. In all seriousness, I believe Monk, Jacoby, and Butz are GLARING omissions from the HOF.

a couple of my favorite players Monte Coleman and Neil Olkewicz, i personally think are fringe HOF guys, but ive never made a big deal of it, and never will. Redskin lore will suffice thank you!

[pjfootballer]

Outside of Monk, Jacoby, Grimm, and Green (sometimes Clark)... few if any former Redskins are mentioned as HOF worthy, and only Monk is debated regularly here. I'm not sure where your point of contention comes from.... but I never have heard or read any Skins fans harping for any other former Skins, except those few mentioned

I was going to say the same thing

[GrimReefa]

I agree other names aren't mentioned often. But, even mentioning some of them once is amazing. Then again, I remember seeing something completely off the wall and noticed the poster was like 16 years old. Maybe I'm just too critical of youngins.

I stopped at page 1, so excuse me if somebody has already made this point.

There are almost 56,000 members who have started almost 150,000 threads on this site. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as ill-informed as they may be.

Was Stephen Davis mentioned as a potential HOFer? Ya, I saw him mentioned once. And the idea was immediately dismissed by almost every other poster in the thread. You'll have individual posters who claim that Player X or Player Y could be a HOFer, but the majority of posters on this board are quite reasonable. Monk, yes. Jacoby, yes. Davis, no. Williams, no. Rypien, no.

Complaining about individual posters is a waste of your time. When you have so many members, a lot of POVs will be expressed, some silly, others less so. If you don't like something that somebody says, then say so on that thread. Tell them you disagree with them, and why. Try and be respectful; just because somebody is wrong doesn't make them an idiot, maybe it just means they hadn't thought what they were typing through. It happens to the best of us.

But don't assume that because you read something on here once made by one poster the whole community feels that way. No one on here speaks for all of us. if they did, that would defeat the purpose of discussion boards, wouldn't it?

If this came off as preachy, I apologize.

[Hauss]

Grimm was a member of the All Decade team(80's) and isn't in the Hall. Also, when Buges came back to coach, I read things that were written by the media outside of D.C. They called the Hogs the legendary Redskin offensive line. How can a line be legendary and not have one member in the Hall? The most deserving Skins for the Hall are Green. Monk, Grimm and Jacoby. Hopefully, the Seniors committee will one day nominate Chris Hanburger.

[scruffylookin]

I don't remember him while he was playing, but the real headscratcher ommission for me is Chris Hanburger. How someone makes that many pro bowls, is the leader of one of the top defenses of his time (Allen's Skins) and yet is not even sniffing HOF induction is a mystery.

I think everybody has their favorites so you're going to read alot of different names mentioned for HOF especially when it comes to current Skins and projecting them into the Hall. I remember thinking Joe Theismann was a sure bet as a HOF QB back in 84 or 85. With the passage of time, I realized that I was being a homer who was too young (14) to really know any better. I still love Joey T and everything, but no longer consider him as even a fringe HOF QB.

Looking back on the Skins I remember: Monk, Clark (yes he deserves it damnit!!), Green, Butz, Grimm, and Jacoby are the ones that I still feel should get in.

Boderline (I might feel they deserve it but realize there are reasons why they probably will not):

Manley (People say he was one dimensional-I say his run defense is vastly underrated, but even if they are right, what a one dimension! A great great pass rusher who got jobbed from many pro bowls simply because he liked to talk a ton of smack. I think Dexter played a generation too early. Had he played about a decade later in the "ESPN" age. His smack talk would have been rewarded moreso than in the 80's.)

Mann (A complete defensive end. Was never a Bruce Smith or Reggie White in terms of dominance, but for an extended period of time 85-91, he was one of the best after those two guys)

Lachey (I think his play earns him a spot, but he was hurt too much at the end of his career so longevity may be an issue)

[dgreen]

Your mistake in this post is to condemn the group by noting the exception(s).

I don't think I did that. If I did, I apologize.

[dgreen]

Petey, is that you? You sneaky little devil... You know your friends at SI don't like you coming on these boards. :no:

If you seriously look at each SB winner, you'll have a tough time ranking the '87 Skins any higher than 30th. Of course, many are going to take that as an insult. It's not. It's like saying being worth $200M isn't as good as being worth $300M. They are both great; one is just better than the other.

[dgreen]

I stopped at page 1, so excuse me if somebody has already made this point.

There are almost 56,000 members who have started almost 150,000 threads on this site.

Wow. I didn't know there were that many members. Cool. That would definitely result in a few extra absurd posts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as ill-informed as they may be.

Good thing nobody has said anything to the contrary.

Complaining about individual posters is a waste of your time.

With all due respect, I'm perfectly capable of deciding what is and isnt' a waste of my time. Clearly, I don't find it to be a waste of my time.

When you have so many members, a lot of POVs will be expressed, some silly, others less so. If you don't like something that somebody says, then say so on that thread. Tell them you disagree with them, and why. Try and be respectful; just because somebody is wrong doesn't make them an idiot, maybe it just means they hadn't thought what they were typing through. It happens to the best of us.

Good points. Yes, my first reaction to reading something I disagree with is, "That's stupid." My first reaction should be, "Hmm, I wonder why they think that," and try to get more information. Then, if they give a stupid explanation, I'm in the clear to think they're stupid.

But don't assume that because you read something on here once made by one poster the whole community feels that way. No one on here speaks for all of us. if they did, that would defeat the purpose of discussion boards, wouldn't it?

I don't think I did that. I didn't start this thread after reading just one post. I've seen a ton of nonsense, according to me. I responded directly to some of them. But, I didn't keep track of all the posts, so I can't link to them all.

Maybe it's just he offseason. It gets to all of us.

If this came off as preachy, I apologize.

No problem. :thumbsup:

[Henry]

If you seriously look at each SB winner, you'll have a tough time ranking the '87 Skins any higher than 30th. Of course, many are going to take that as an insult. It's not. It's like saying being worth $200M isn't as good as being worth $300M. They are both great; one is just better than the other.

Of course it's not an insult. the 30th best team out of 1108 is pretty darn good. I'd be suprised if there wasn't at least one HOFer on a team that good.

[TallyHo]

Ali Haji-Sheikh for HOF

[iceman330]

I only remember seeing Doug here in DC. And, I'm impressed with his numbers and the team's accomplishments in TB. If you are simply arguing that he is better than I give him credit for, you might be right. But, while I love the guy, he's a far cry from HOF material in my book.

Well, check your books. Again, his time in DC was literally the last couple of years of his career. NO QB would get into the HOF based on the numbers from the last 2 years of their career. Montana is remembered for his years in SF not KC. But anyone who watched Tampa from it's birth knows that Doug, virtually by himself, made that team legit. Moreover, numbers don't tell the whole story. If you play QB and I play receiver and you hit me in my chest with the ball and I drop it, that is an incomplete pass on your stat sheet. So again, again, you're correct about the others but Doug is not in that group.

[dgreen]

Well, check your books. Again, his time in DC was literally the last couple of years of his career. NO QB would get into the HOF based on the numbers from the last 2 years of their career. Montana is remembered for his years in SF not KC. But anyone who watched Tampa from it's birth knows that Doug, virtually by himself, made that team legit. Moreover, numbers don't tell the whole story. If you play QB and I play receiver and you hit me in my chest with the ball and I drop it, that is an incomplete pass on your stat sheet. So again, again, you're correct about the others but Doug is not in that group.

So you thing Doug should be in the HOF?

[iceman330]

So you thing Doug should be in the HOF?

Yesssir, Tampa was about 3 years old when Doug led them to a 10-6 season and beat Philly, (who won the NFC championship the next year) in the playoffs. Heck, you put Doug (when he was w/ Tampa) w/ San Diego (from back then) and it would be more clear why I say he was as good as it gets. He just had no receivers and a shabby Oline.....Shoot, look at what he did during his last year in the NFL as an insurance QB w/ 2 bad knees but had guys who could catch the ball.

I remember Tampa's first couple years in the league. You have never seen an NFL team soooooo bad. Their highlight film looked like it belonged on America's Funniest Videos. At school, we'd make reference to the Bucs when someone was sorry. Then they got Doug and he made alot of things happen in spite of being beat up so badly. Yep, I think he belongs.

[Monkart]

So you thing Doug should be in the HOF?

I don't know about him, but Timmy Smith should have been a first round ballot, for crying out loud he has a SB record (STILL). just kidding.

[Butz65]

If you seriously look at each SB winner, you'll have a tough time ranking the '87 Skins any higher than 30th. Of course, many are going to take that as an insult. It's not. It's like saying being worth $200M isn't as good as being worth $300M. They are both great; one is just better than the other.

I'm not so sure about that. Perhaps taken over the season as a whole. Yet they beat some pretty good teams to get to the Super Bowl then dismantled the prohibitive favorite in the big game. I'd put that Skins team up against last season's winner - how many people would have predicted that the Steelers would win during the regular season? I'd also put them up against two of the three New England teams - who were all gutsy but hardly dominant. How about '87 vs. the Ravens? That's just a quick list. I'd list the 87 team in at least the middle of Super Bowl winners.

[dgreen]

I'm not so sure about that. Perhaps taken over the season as a whole.

Yes, considering the whole season. I'm not sure why you would do it any other way.

Yet they beat some pretty good teams to get to the Super Bowl then dismantled the prohibitive favorite in the big game.

Not really. They had a great road win in Chicago then were fortunate to play the Championship game at RFK vs. Minnesota. Minny was 8-7 that year. (Although, three of their losses were in scab games. The Skins won all three of theirs. So, each of them were pretty evenly matched; further evidence being the Skins 27-24 win at MIN to finish the regular season.) The Vikings were able to win at SF with Montana going down and Young appearing in his first playoff game. That was a 13-2 49ers team that led the league in total offense and defense. Also, they won the next two SBs.

I'd put that Skins team up against last season's winner - how many people would have predicted that the Steelers would win during the regular season? I'd also put them up against two of the three New England teams - who were all gutsy but hardly dominant. How about '87 vs. the Ravens? That's just a quick list. I'd list the 87 team in at least the middle of Super Bowl winners.

I've seen plenty of lists ranking SB winners. The 87 Skins are usually near the bottom and, while looking at these lists, I've never been able to figure out an argument for them to be higher. The fact is, most SB winners were pretty dominant. Other than one quarter, that team just didn't dominate very much.

[dgreen]

Yesssir, Tampa was about 3 years old when Doug led them to a 10-6 season and beat Philly, (who won the NFC championship the next year) in the playoffs. Heck, you put Doug (when he was w/ Tampa) w/ San Diego (from back then) and it would be more clear why I say he was as good as it gets. He just had no receivers and a shabby Oline.....Shoot, look at what he did during his last year in the NFL as an insurance QB w/ 2 bad knees but had guys who could catch the ball.

I remember Tampa's first couple years in the league. You have never seen an NFL team soooooo bad. Their highlight film looked like it belonged on America's Funniest Videos. At school, we'd make reference to the Bucs when someone was sorry. Then they got Doug and he made alot of things happen in spite of being beat up so badly. Yep, I think he belongs.

I'm not the biggest fan of simply looking at who's in the HOF and deciding if player X is better than someone already in the HOF and using that as evidence for induction. However, it can legitimately be one piece to the puzzle. Looking at the modern-era QBs in the HOF, I can only even consider Doug over one of them: Joe Namath. As best I can tell, Namath is in the HOF because of who he was, not what he did. So, in that regard, Doug has a shot I guess.

For a QB to get in the HOF, he must have gaudy numbers or be a winner or both. Aside from Namath, I think you'll find that to be true of the guys already in the HOF.

Doug has respectable numbers. From 79-82, you can argue he has good numbers. In 87-88, his per game numbers are good, but he didn't play a whole lot. He simply didn't have enough numbers over the long haul. Maybe if he had stayed in the NFL from 83-85, he would have put up great numbers and improved his case. But, he didn't. And the result is that his numbers don't come close.

Doug's winning is better than his numbers, but not by leaps and bounds. He took TB to the playoffs, even the NFC Championship game. That's awesome. He won a SB with arguably the best SB performance for a QB to that point and maybe ever. That's awesome. But, four or five years of winning just doesn't stack up against his contemporaries. Plus, in TB, he had some really good defenses on his side a couple of those years, anchored by a HOF at DE.

I understand your point about him having success in TB with a crappy offense. But, it just wasn't for a long enough period of time. Gale Sayers is the poster boy for making the HOF on a short career. But, he was, in most minds, the best at his position, and maybe the best in the game, during those years. Doug can't come close to claiming that. Dwight Stephenson made the HOF despite only eight years. But, again, he was considered the best at his position during that time and made five straight Pro Bowls.

[whatmeworry]

Apparently Pete King will reconsider his position on Monk for the coming vote. In all seriousness, I believe Monk, Jacoby, and Butz are GLARING omissions from the HOF.

a couple of my favorite players Monte Coleman and Neil Olkewicz, i personally think are fringe HOF guys, but ive never made a big deal of it, and never will. Redskin lore will suffice thank you!

I forgot abot Coleman. He could have been an LT type player but stayed within the system. Undoubtedly one of the most underrated players of all time.

[betsy thurman]

My List of HOF worthy Gibbs' Redskins not in the HOF yet

1. Art Monk (He broke all the team records of two former Redskin HOFer WR Mitchell & Taylor)

2. Green (not eligible yet)

3.(tie) Grimm & Jacoby... The leaders of probably the greatest OL in recent NFL history, Helped lead the way to several impressive offensives stats, and 4 superbowl apperances. Comparable to previous great OL in other decades Packers of the 60's, and Steelers of the 70's both of those teams have players from the OL in the HOF

Just outside HOF worthy

1. Joey T.

2. Gary Clark

3. Mark Mosely

4. Dexter Manley

5. Jeff Bostic

6. Dave Butz

7. Wilbur Marshall

i think you must have been reading my mind when you wrote this so i'll just say ditto

[spanishomelette]

Doug William's performance in the Super Bowl was a Hall of Fame one. Should that qualify as being an inductee? I suppose it could be argued so. At least something about his performance in that game should be displayed there IMO.

[Stew]

More appropriate? I don't know.

This thread (topic) is actually only pet peeve #2 about Extremeskinners. #1 is the constant complaining about what someone else said or didn't say about the Skins.

I dont think anyone is twisting your arm to come around here. Your thread is pointless, and its just your mindless complaining that NOONE wants on the front page. If you have "pet peeves" about the board, then go play on the myspace redskins fan site. Oh, and I dont feel like finding links blah blah blah, then dont say anything if you cant back it up. I love these threads where these Pelicans open their wide jaws and leave themselves to be shredded in their own thread.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

Monk will get in this year, Green will be a first-balloter, and Hanburger will eventually get in. If Grimm gets a head coaching job he'll get in, and then Jacoby will follow.

Just for fun, future HOF'ers from this generation are Portis and Taylor.

[Buck812]

I'm a Redskins fan. I love Redskins fans. I love this message board. However, I'm continually amazed at many poster's inability to see players for what they were. Everyone who ever wore a Skins uniform does not need to be propped up above Joe Montana, Jim Brown, and Jerry Rice.

This nonsense is usually seen in questions about which Redskins should be in the HOF. I've seen questions about Doug Williams, Stephen Davis, Ernest Byner, Gerald Riggs, and even Chris Cooley. Seriously, 99% of the players mentioned for the HOF are totally mind-boggling.

Please stop. It's embarrassing. I encourage everyone to take a look at the current HOFers and learn about what they did and who they were.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Like I said, I love this board. However, some of the stuff I read here is amazing. I believe the more knowledgeable our fans become about the game (and not just the Skins), the better off we'll all be.

Leave the crappy analysis and inflated egos to the Cowgirls fans. That is all. Carry on.

This is exactly why we have this message board....If we all agreed on everything we wouldnt need it.