Complaining about the officiating in the first game.

[Omnishank]

Vengeance is a dish betts served cold without a bad call and replay booth that took 10 seconds to "examine",i myself never get over wrongs of ignorance,only rights made wrong..such as booting the bucs out of the playoffs with a victory no zebra to dictate the victor,there are still plenty of ticked off players an coaches besides myself that havent forgot and come saturday the repo man will come to collect!

[SkinsFTW]

You have to know Gibbs is telling the players that this game, and the flying to Tampa, living out of a hotel for a week, etc. would have been spent in DC if they had only done a little more and ensured the win against Tampa earlier. Even though the refs were horrible.

The team is going to be pumped up and pissed about that game.

I know I picked a 17-13 Washington win, but I won't be surprised if our defense causes a few more turnovers than normal and we win it by more. Like maybe 27-10.

[EnFoRcEr_uPu]

Also, if we're talking an eye for an eye, Galloway was out of bounds on that first "catch", and was never even touched. The Bucs would have had to punt, meaning no TD, and that only gives you guys 28 points.

Let's also not forget the interception they had when we tried to run a WR screen to Moss and they literally HELD him until they tipped the ball. I went back to watch the replay of it during the game and I couldn't believe that not only did they literally hold him like a little kid trying to run around a toy store, but it was 5 FEET DIRECTLY in front of a referee.

This time its payback, simple as that.

[ntotoro]

Let's also not forget the interception they had when we tried to run a WR screen to Moss and they literally HELD him until they tipped the ball. I went back to watch the replay of it during the game and I couldn't believe that not only did they literally hold him like a little kid trying to run around a toy store, but it was 5 FEET DIRECTLY in front of a referee.

This time its payback, simple as that.

I don't know how I forgot that play. Whoever was defending Moss off-the-line (the same guy who made the INT) had much more than just a handful of his jersey. He got mugged big-time. How any ref missed that is absurd. It was obvious to even Steve Wonder.

[Chief skin]

Whats done is done, and is history. Saturday let the players play the game and decide the outcome

[Thirtyfive2seven]

How about the "offsides" penalty on the BLOCKED extra point?

How about the "pushed out of bounds" ""catch""

Bad calls were made all right

[onedrop]

To say the truth, you're right. There wasn't enough evidence to overturn the play. The problem is the play was called so obviously wrong to begin with -- the official running in, unable to see him across the line until the pile cleared -- that the call deserves some serious questioning.

The presumption on such a play is he did NOT get in unless you SEE it. The official didn't until AFTER the play was over when he raised his hands. The right call, by NFL rulebook, was to call no points and allow replay to evaluate it. By doing what he did he essentially GAVE a team a win on a call that was wrongly made by rule.

The Betts call was obviously the same. The official had to SEE Betts out of bounds. He didn't, so he couldn't presume he was as he did with the Alstott 2-pointer. More importantly, the Bucs were also given another scoring drive with a horrid call on a push out earlier in the game.

The simple fact is had the officials simply made ALL the calls as they should have by the rules of the game the Bucs would not have won. That's ok. It's also not in dispute. Admiting that fact is not a diminishment on a fine effort by your team. Only it was clear without the assistance you'd not have won. How that impacts this game is unknown, but, the fact that we've seen enough on the field with appropriate calls to have confidence in our team at your place is enough for me.

nice Art, i agree. how do you feel about the original extra point attempt? i, during the game, figured we just jumped early. but after seeing it again and again and hearing about it i came to the conclusion that the bucs center actually lifted the ball BEFORE he snapped it and therefore we were not offsides. but obviously i am very biased and usually do not see things as fairly as you. whats your opinion?

[number twenty-eight]

I don't know what this was supposed to mean, but would you mind keeping your comments a bit more football related?

That was regarding Ronde Barber's referee-punching ways. Apologies if it was received in poor taste.

I can only agree regarding the rest of the comments. As has been pointed out, one call gone awry has cost us the second seed. That crew couldn't have possibly seen anything conclusive in realtime.

[fpickering]

Agreed.

The rules of the game forbid the official from making the call he made, yet he made it. The SAME official who made the bogus push-out call I believe. It's very sad the official willfully and KNOWINGLY decided to violate the rules to make a call he's not supposed to make.

You're dead on.

Is there any chance that there is going to be something tangible done to improve officiating in the NFL? I feel that the officiating in college football is much better. Why is that? I feel like they have a better replay system and seem to consistently get the call correct when it is all said and done. In the NFL, I feel that that refs get the call wrong even after a replay fairly often. They hardly ever overturn their calls and it suggests that it is a pride issue or something. When asked about it the head of officials sometimes seems to make excuses.

Does it make sense to have old refs? I know it is a passage or a tradition or something but when can NFL fans expect some accountability from what can only be described as critical mistakes in officiating?

[redskins55]

The officiating was horrible, no pass interference calls, no holding calls , and you forgot about the " phantom force out pass" in which the ref called Shephard's reception a catch and a force out even though noone ever touched him!

That game was officiated horribly and if it happeneds again some heads will roll up in NFL Headquarters.

[Whiskey17]

Gruden is no slouch when it comes to the X’s and O’s either. And there is no way the Skins put up 42 on the Bucs’ D.

Yep, but only one of them is in the Hall of Fame.

[mcb4]

You're dead on.

Is there any chance that there is going to be something tangible done to improve officiating in the NFL? I feel that the officiating in college football is much better. Why is that? I feel like they have a better replay system and seem to consistently get the call correct when it is all said and done. In the NFL, I feel that that refs get the call wrong even after a replay fairly often. They hardly ever overturn their calls and it suggests that it is a pride issue or something. When asked about it the head of officials sometimes seems to make excuses.

Does it make sense to have old refs? I know it is a passage or a tradition or something but when can NFL fans expect some accountability from what can only be described as critical mistakes in officiating?

Look at that picture. You can't say with 100% certainty that the ball is not across the plane

[Art]

Look at that picture. You can't say with 100% certainty that the ball is not across the plane

Uh, how have you missed the point. No human could have seen the ball CROSS the goal line at any point. No camera. No review. No official. The official didn't see it. He ran in. Let Alstott wiggle. Then saw a portion of his body over and called him in. He never adhered to his obligation as an official to SEE the ball cross the plane. By league mandate to the officials the presumption on any play requires the actual official to SEE the play. He can't guess. This guy did.

There was a more clear view on replay that showed the high improbability of the ball crossing the plane due to body position, but, the official was forced to ignore that because his fellow official made the wrong call in the first place.

[mcb4]

Uh, how have you missed the point. No human could have seen the ball CROSS the goal line at any point. No camera. No review. No official. The official didn't see it. He ran in. Let Alstott wiggle. Then saw a portion of his body over and called him in. He never adhered to his obligation as an official to SEE the ball cross the plane. By league mandate to the officials the presumption on any play requires the actual official to SEE the play. He can't guess. This guy did.

There was a more clear view on replay that showed the high improbability of the ball crossing the plane due to body position, but, the official was forced to ignore that because his fellow official made the wrong call in the first place.

So you're saying that even though the correct call was made, the official shouldn't have made it because you dont think he could have seen it?

[saubouin]

It took 5 straight wins to overcome what that call cost our teams. I'm over it now that we're in the playoffs.

I hope the don't use the same bozo's to officiate the game!:mad: :mad:

[Art]

So you're saying that even though the correct call was made, the official shouldn't have made it because you dont think he could have seen it?

Again, why is this difficult for you?

The words are simple.

The correct call on REPLAY was made because the official had no clear evidence the ball didn't cross the plane. He had no clear evidence it did. The ball was NEVER visible at any point of the play until the play was over. The official on the field made the wrong call because he didn't see the ball. As you point out, he couldn't have. By NFL rule and official mandate, the ref CAN'T advance the ball beyond the point he can SEE it. Here, he did. He automatically has to default to the last spot he could physically, clearly see the ball. He can't presume it was further or back further. This official -- the same one who gave the Bucs a first and goal with a horrible call earlier -- decided to break the rules he's supposed to abide by and make a call he's not allowed to make. The head ref did the right thing. You can't overrule a call without clear evidence. The issue is the first official made a call without any evidence himself, which was incorrect.

And, of course, the Redskins didn't jump offside on the play before. They were moving, but not into the zone. So there were MULTIPLE efforts to help you with that point there. You needed it because you didn't make the kick or get in the end zone for the two pointer on your own.

[mcb4]

Again, why is this difficult for you?

The words are simple.

The correct call on REPLAY was made because the official had no clear evidence the ball didn't cross the plane. He had no clear evidence it did. The ball was NEVER visible at any point of the play until the play was over. The official on the field made the wrong call because he didn't see the ball. As you point out, he couldn't have. By NFL rule and official mandate, the ref CAN'T advance the ball beyond the point he can SEE it. Here, he did. He automatically has to default to the last spot he could physically, clearly see the ball. He can't presume it was further or back further. This official -- the same one who gave the Bucs a first and goal with a horrible call earlier -- decided to break the rules he's supposed to abide by and make a call he's not allowed to make. The head ref did the right thing. You can't overrule a call without clear evidence. The issue is the first official made a call without any evidence himself, which was incorrect.

And, of course, the Redskins didn't jump offside on the play before. They were moving, but not into the zone. So there were MULTIPLE efforts to help you with that point there. You needed it because you didn't make the kick or get in the end zone for the two pointer on your own.

I've never heard of this "NFL rule and official mandate." Do you have the NFL rulebook? Or is there a site you can link me to which says this?

[cjcdaman]

I believe you mean the paloffs. :doh:

Huh??????????

[Art]

I've never heard of this "NFL rule and official mandate." Do you have the NFL rulebook? Or is there a site you can link me to which says this?

I have the NFL case book provided to me by Ed Hoculi and it's there. But, it's also in your own brain. Trust me. You don't have had to have heard of anything to KNOW an official can't make a call he can't SEE. He can't say two feet were in if he couldn't tell. He can ask for help. Where there is no help, the presumption is the play was not successful. This is on ALL plays.

Mistakes are easy to make where you clearly see the ball and feet and an official can't process the information fast enough. But, this was a case by your own admission where NO ONE on earth could see where the ball was at that angle. The upper angle clearly showed the ball never advanced that far by the law of physics, but, absent physical sight of the ball the lead official couldn't do anything.

The presumption is ALSO supposed to be on "live" play when an official clearly doesn't see something. So a QB who's arm is moving forward shouldn't immediately be ruled an incompletion unless the official sees where the ball lands and assures its not a lateral as an example. There are lots of guidelines for various plays, but the commonality for all is an official has to SEE CLEARLY something has happened before he can make an action. He can't whistle a play dead until he clearly sees the body down, player out of bounds or play to have stopped. He can't say a ball breaks the plane of the goal line when no one on earth could see the ball, given it was tucked away. Only the law of physics tells us he didn't get it over. But the official doesn't have to worry about that. He just has to worry about seeing the ball.

[mcb4]

I have the NFL case book provided to me by Ed Hoculi and it's there. But, it's also in your own brain. Trust me. You don't have had to have heard of anything to KNOW an official can't make a call he can't SEE. He can't say two feet were in if he couldn't tell. He can ask for help. Where there is no help, the presumption is the play was not successful. This is on ALL plays.

Mistakes are easy to make where you clearly see the ball and feet and an official can't process the information fast enough. But, this was a case by your own admission where NO ONE on earth could see where the ball was at that angle. The upper angle clearly showed the ball never advanced that far by the law of physics, but, absent physical sight of the ball the lead official couldn't do anything.

The presumption is ALSO supposed to be on "live" play when an official clearly doesn't see something. So a QB who's arm is moving forward shouldn't immediately be ruled an incompletion unless the official sees where the ball lands and assures its not a lateral as an example. There are lots of guidelines for various plays, but the commonality for all is an official has to SEE CLEARLY something has happened before he can make an action. He can't whistle a play dead until he clearly sees the body down, player out of bounds or play to have stopped. He can't say a ball breaks the plane of the goal line when no one on earth could see the ball, given it was tucked away. Only the law of physics tells us he didn't get it over. But the official doesn't have to worry about that. He just has to worry about seeing the ball.

So you have the book, can you possibly quote what you're referring to for me?

Also, aren't you contradicting yourself? You said the ref "can't whistle a play dead until he clearly sees the body down." He couldn't see Alstott's elbow. So didn't he do the proper thing in running toward the pile and seeing if the ball had crossed the line?

EDIT: Also, how did you get this book?

[mikeyf316]

Gruden is no slouch when it comes to the X’s and O’s either. And there is no way the Skins put up 42 on the Bucs’ D.

Why not? They put up 35, and this was before they started running hot!

Here's to a good game (the Bucs' last of the season:silly: )!

[#1AZRedskinfan]

Karma is a beautiful thing.

[PetePierson]

Yep, but only one of them is in the Hall of Fame.

Not really a fair comparison considering the age difference. When it is all said and done, Gruden will be there as well.

[s0crates]

Not really a fair comparison considering the age difference. When it is all said and done, Gruden will be there as well.

Hardly a fair comparison? Gibbs had won 3 NFC titles and 2 Super Bowls at the same point in his career that Gruden is at now. It only took Gibbs 10 years to win 3 Super Bowls with three different teams. If Gruden is going to turn in a comparable career he has some seious catching up to do. Heck, Gruden's only Championship was won with another guy's team (Dungy's).

Gruden as a hall of famer? Lets just say I'll take a wait and see on that one.

[MustangSteve]

So you're saying that even though the correct call was made, the official shouldn't have made it because you dont think he could have seen it?

The correct call wasnt made because there was nothing to see except his elbow down at the 1 yard line. Thats Ok though, the Refs cant help you this time!!!! :point2sky