WP:Manassas Changes Definition Of Family

[sumodat]

I don't know about unsanitary, at the dorm in my school they manage to fit 2 sometimes even 3 people in a room half the size of the one I have at my home. Some rooms are really clean and tidy, my room looks like crap, but that is because my roommate and I are messy, unorganized assholes. Thanks to modern technology (indoor plumbing) sanitation is not a problem. There are 4 bathrooms for 24 people yet somehow all the waste gets flushed away (well, best case scenario anyway).

If 20 people can live in a house and NOT produce these "byfactors" would you have a problem with it?

The alternative solution of dealing with just the byfactors will only target the people who are causing problems for their neighbors (noise, trash, cars) and will leave alone those who are not causing the problems for their neighbors.

The bathrooms are community bathrooms! I was in the Air Force. I understand utilizing all the space available. This does not apply to this conversation.

All of these people are not immediate family. Most are not family at all. Just immigrants who coordinate with each other before coming here.

Listen, I live next to it. I don't like it and I feel it should be illegal.

This is just my opinion. If you want to live next to 20 people living in a 3 BR house, go for it. There are a lot of houses like this in Edgewater, Md. If you want, I will show you where they are. That way you can move in nice and close to them.

Maybe you need to see it to understand what it's like. But for me, it sucks, and I am looking to get the hell out of there. Which sadly happens to people all too often!

[Ignatius J.]

all of a sudden this is a left versus right thing? Wow.

Tons of leftists support zoning laws, and tons of conservatives hate them, but whatever. Dreamingwolf, you're still carrying on because you misread liberty's post, so go back and reread it, he was saying the law should be involved in cases where damage is done, but not when the "crime" is victimless. That's it.

And no, it's not less property tax, it's exactly the same. A family of seven and a group of seven unrelated people pay the same taxes per person. Why does the relation of the people affect property taxes?

[Prosperity]

If I wanted to be completely idealistic I would probably be against all zoning laws in general, but for the sake of this argument and practicality I will not have a problem with zoning laws in general as long as they accurately fix a real problem.

20 people a house is not a real problem

trash, noise, cars are real problems

well liberty your upset about people using law, then you say people should use law. which is it? I know you dont/arent willing to understand why there are zoning laws, even though suprising you understand when I say if you fly below the radar you get away with it.

I am upset about using stupid laws, stupid laws ought to be changed into smart laws or be done with all together. I said this is a stupid law, and I presented a smarter law.

I can't make it any more clear for you, sorry.

City of Manassas does how ever chalk tires, and will ticket cars that dont move over a 24 hour period but thats about all they can do.

Problem solved, atleast legally. If that doesn't work then all you have to do is look at the house over a period of a week if the same cars are there then you can use that suspicion to check to see who the owners are. If the owners all belong to one house then there is a problem.

Trash. it is almost impossible to attribute spread debris to its owner even if everyone including the police agree to the source. what are you gonna finger print the trash? Unless you have video tape of the lose trash leaving the culprits lawn.

Somehow I doubt it is hard as you make it sound. Clean up your front yard or there will be problems. That would be a sensible zoning law.

So you see its not so easy, so people get frustrated and use zoning laws to curb the behavior.

You keep challenging me on my points but Im saying why people are getting called up on zoning infractions and you attack me on the legal point of it. You then said the law shouldnt be involved, but then you said the law should be involved. Your not making sense, your big brain is out thinking yourself. Instead of just trying to break down someone else, how about just make a consistant point.

I didn't attack you on the legal point of it, the law enforcement in this case probably have the law behind them. I have a problem with the law itself, it ought to be changed.

[sumodat]

all of a sudden this is a left versus right thing? Wow.

Tons of leftists support zoning laws, and tons of conservatives hate them, but whatever. Dreamingwolf, you're still carrying on because you misread liberty's post, so go back and reread it, he was saying the law should be involved in cases where damage is done, but not when the "crime" is victimless. That's it.

And no, it's not less property tax, it's exactly the same. A family of seven and a group of seven unrelated people pay the same taxes per person. Why does the relation of the people affect property taxes?

You are right in the fact that the relation should have nothing to do with it. x number of people to y number of rooms, period.

If you get it on a lot and have a lot of kids, be able to afford a place to house them all!

[Ignatius J.]

For the record I still don't like that law, but it's way more sensible to me than this bullhonkey.

[DeanCollins]

here's the explanation, they changed on out of three definitions?

Under the city's old zoning ordinance' date=' there were three definitions of who could share a house: three unrelated people; two unrelated people and their children; or any combination of relatives, however extended, plus one unrelated person. It is the third definition that was changed under the new law.

"What we tried to do is define it in a way that was traditional, to make sure these peripheral people start to be winnowed out," Smith said.

According to the new definition, one unrelated person is still allowed. But everyone else must fall within the "second degree of consanguinity" from the person declared to be the head of household. Significantly, relationships are traced through the parents.

Thus, in Chavez's case, her nephew is three degrees: He is her parents' son's son and thus is considered unrelated. Under the old rule, Chavez had two unrelated people living with her -- the tenant and his girlfriend -- and one would have had to go. Under the new rule, though, she has three unrelated people under her roof.

here's the definition

Family means:

(1) An individual;

(2) Two or more persons related to the second degree of collateral consanguinity

by blood, marriage, adoption or guardianship, or otherwise duly authorized

custodial relationship, as verified by official public records such as drivers

licenses, birth or marriage certificates, court orders or notarized affidavits,

living and cooking together as a single housekeeping unit, exclusive of not

more than one additional nonrelated person; (Amended 12/5/05)

(3) A number of persons, not exceeding three, living and cooking together as a

single housekeeping unit though not related by blood, marriage, adoption or

guardianship; or

(4) Not more than two unrelated persons and their dependent children living and

cooking together as a single housekeeping unit.

City of Manassas Zoning Ordinance

ARTICLE II P-6

[BlueTalon]

And no, it's not less property tax, it's exactly the same. A family of seven and a group of seven unrelated people pay the same taxes per person. Why does the relation of the people affect property taxes?

Yes, it's less property tax. Any number of people (in this case, seven), who are living in one house in violation of a zoning law, are going to have to either split up into smaller groups and occupy two or more dwellings (paying more property taxes), or move in its entirety to a different place where the makeup of their group isn't prohibited, allowing a smaller family or group to inhabit the original dwelling (paying more property tax per person, at a minimum). And of course, neighborhoods without overloaded houses tend to increase/keep their value more than those with such overloaded houses, and that increase in value will eventually be assessed, resulting in higher property taxes being paid.

[Prosperity]

The bathrooms are community bathrooms! I was in the Air Force. I understand utilizing all the space available. This does not apply to this conversation.

All of these people are not immediate family. Most are not family at all. Just immigrants who coordinate with each other before coming here.

Listen, I live next to it. I don't like it and I feel it should be illegal.

This is just my opinion. If you want to live next to 20 people living in a 3 BR house, go for it. There are a lot of houses like this in Edgewater, Md. If you want, I will show you where they are. That way you can move in nice and close to them.

Maybe you need to see it to understand what it's like. But for me, it sucks, and I am looking to get the hell out of there. Which sadly happens to people all too often!

I presented my case as best as I could and it looks like I can't change your mind. For what it's worth I do live across from a home with about 10+ people living in it and they do a fine job of maintaining the outside appearance. I still woudln't be in favor of the law if the place was a total pig sty, I would want them to clean up the place however.

[Sarge]

There was actually a pretty good article inthe Compost about a year or so ago about this exact situation. It was written from the POV of an elderly couple that built a single family home in the 50's in Arlington or Alexandria in what used to be the suburbs of DC. Obviously now it's part of the city.

However, all those formerly nice, single family homes are now being bought by immigrants, and 10-20 people are moving into a home meant for 4. Now there are 20 cars parked in what used to be the front yard, but is now a parking lot. There is 20 people's worth of trash both in cans and in the yard. The logistical problems go on and on

Thing is, this is an acceptable standard of living in most Turd World countries, so the immigrants don't see the big deal.

Fortunately, it's not the standard in America, at least not until the government let's a few million more illegals in here and brings the standard of living down to Turd World levels for all of us.

Obvvously it's already happening or laws like this would be un-necessary

[bearrock]

My problem with the ordinance is that it appears to be incredibly poorly written. If they want to put a cap on the total number of people that could live under one house, that's fine, but the law goes far beyond that. For example, three unrelated people could not share a house as roommates. (Happened a lot where I went to college) Or if my mom wanted to let my two cousins live in the house while they attend nearby schools, she couldn't do that if she lived in Manasas.

If they have a problem with 20 people to a house, then why didn't they legislate the total number of people in the house rather than say no more than two unrelated people could live together (at least create an exemption for situations where total number of people falls below a certain number). If they have a problem with cars, then they legislate the number of cars to a house (good luck passing that over the objection of wealthy constituents). The bottom line is that the law is very poorly written.

[Ignatius J.]

It's not poorly written at all bearock, because it achieves it's intended consequences. These neighborhoods don't want poor people living in thier neighborhoods if they can help it, so they come up with ordinances like this one so that they can keep out the kind of people they don't want without having to sacrifice thier right to park 5 cars on the street.

It's not poorly worded at all. It's pinpointed.

[DeanCollins]

My problem with the ordinance is that it appears to be incredibly poorly written. If they want to put a cap on the total number of people that could live under one house, that's fine, but the law goes far beyond that. For example, three unrelated people could not share a house as roommates. (Happened a lot where I went to college) Or if my mom wanted to let my two cousins live in the house while they attend nearby schools, she couldn't do that if she lived in Manasas.

If they have a problem with 20 people to a house, then why didn't they legislate the total number of people in the house rather than say no more than two unrelated people could live together (at least create an exemption for situations where total number of people falls below a certain number). If they have a problem with cars, then they legislate the number of cars to a house (good luck passing that over the objection of wealthy constituents). The bottom line is that the law is very poorly written.

They do have limits on total number of residents, 2 per bedroom max.

I don't see the big change, the term "single family" is not a new one.

[Thiebear]

I have 10-12 people living in the house 11oclock from me.. They actually had electricity run to the shed in the back yard. They've added a 2nd story to the house now and are working on moving the front door.

I called the police once when they were all drunk walking back and forth from the shed to the house and it was provable (No children live there). The cops told me to call Health and Human Services.. They were busy 3 times in the next hour...

Never called back.

Unlike what you hear about in the news... Most cases should be handled on an individual basis..

*Note I already put up a picture of the neighbor with 8 cars.. I'd never call about him either (but he also has a lift in his garage and I get everything done there )

[Art Monk Fan]

I think everyone here is missing the "other" reason for such zoning laws: overcrowding creates unsafe living conditions. Every week there is a news story about someone dying in an accident in one of these overcrowded homes.

In a fire, there are too many people trying to make their way through too few exits -- where time is of the essence some will die. There was a fire in a townhouse just this week, where the family of five in the basement all died, while the two other families upstairs all made it out -- it didn't help that none of the fire alarms in the home were working.

This particular law may be poorly written, but there are legitimate reasons for zoning ordinances against overcrowding.

[bearrock]

They do have limits on total number of residents, 2 per bedroom max.

I don't see the big change, the term "single family" is not a new one.

If they have a total limit on number of residents, then why do they need this change?

[Kilmer17]

My neighborhood HOA has a bylaw limiting the number of unrelated roommates to 2!!!

If it bothered me, I wouldnt live there. I'd love to have a built in pit BBQ in my backyard, but the HOA prohibits that as well.

The solution is for people to-

A- obey the law

or

B- elect people to change the law

[Art Monk Fan]

The solution is for people to-

A- obey the law

or

B- elect people to change the law

That was the old America.

In the new America you sue and argue that the Right to Build Barbeque Pits is written upside down and backwards in between the fifth and sixth lines of the Consitution -- just tilt your head and squint and you can see it there clear as day.

[HOF44]

I think everyone here is missing the "other" reason for such zoning laws: overcrowding creates unsafe living conditions. Every week there is a news story about someone dying in an accident in one of these overcrowded homes.

In a fire, there are too many people trying to make their way through too few exits -- where time is of the essence some will die. There was a fire in a townhouse just this week, where the family of five in the basement all died, while the two other families upstairs all made it out -- it didn't help that none of the fire alarms in the home were working.

This particular law may be poorly written, but there are legitimate reasons for zoning ordinances against overcrowding.

AMF is spot on with this facet of the issue. Also when you have overcrowding alot of times it puts a strain on the electrical system in the home. This too can lead to fires.

[DeanCollins]

My neighborhood HOA has a bylaw limiting the number of unrelated roommates to 2!!!

If it bothered me, I wouldnt live there. I'd love to have a built in pit BBQ in my backyard, but the HOA prohibits that as well.

The solution is for people to-

A- obey the law

or

B- elect people to change the law

or

C- take your @$$ out to the country where nobody cares

[Prosperity]

My neighborhood HOA has a bylaw limiting the number of unrelated roommates to 2!!!

If it bothered me, I wouldnt live there. I'd love to have a built in pit BBQ in my backyard, but the HOA prohibits that as well.

The solution is for people to-

A- obey the law

or

B- elect people to change the law

The law doesn't change unless people know why it is stupid

[Rocky21]

Fortunately, it's not the standard in America, at least not until the government let's a few million more illegals in here and brings the standard of living down to Turd World levels for all of us.

Obvvously it's already happening or laws like this would be un-necessary

What government are you talking about? George Bush's administration?

[DeanCollins]

The law doesn't change unless people know why it is stupid

actually this is the type of issue that you should be able to get onto a ballot with enough names on a petition. But once work is involved, people's

opinions generally soften.

[stevenaa]

There are other ramifications to over loading houses then just the immediate neighborhood effects. Let's consider local schooling. School districts are zoned based on the expected number of attendees from the surrounding neighborhoods. If houses are over loaded, then the local schools may have more attendees than space.

What about the local public infrastructure. Roads, sewer, water supply. Increase the demand on these commodities by overloading houses and you could face a shortage.

These may seem extreme, but I think they are valid considerations when limiting the number of residents to the number the house was designed to hold, within reason.

Now deciding the number of occupants based on family relationship is assnine. This is absolutely racially motivated, IMO. If 6 friends want to share a house, there should be no problem.

[DeanCollins]

There are other ramifications to over loading houses then just the immediate neighborhood effects. Let's consider local schooling. School districts are zoned based on the expected number of attendees from the surrounding neighborhoods. If houses are over loaded, then the local schools may have more attendees than space.

What about the local public infrastructure. Roads, sewer, water supply. Increase the demand on these commodities by overloading houses and you could face a shortage.

These may seem extreme, but I think they are valid considerations when limiting the number of residents to the number the house was designed to hold, within reason.

Now deciding the number of occupants based on family relationship is assnine. This is absolutely racially motivated, IMO. If 6 friends want to share a house, there should be no problem.

This is big problem in south florida with migrant workers kids overpopulating the schools, health care, and welfare systems

[Riggo-toni]

Chalk up another victory for big government fascism.