WP:Manassas Changes Definition Of Family

[Ignatius J.]

There aren't many forms of law that I hate more than zoning laws. They are often among the most assinine ideas I have ever heard of. If a group of people buy a house, why can't they live there? 7 people in a five bedroom house is unreasonable? Dumb.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/27/AR2005122701216_pf.html

Manassas Changes Definition Of Family

Activists Criticize New Housing Limits As Anti-Immigrant

By Stephanie McCrummen

Washington Post Staff Writer

Wednesday, December 28, 2005; A01

The inspector slid into his Crown Victoria, a police radio on his belt, addresses in hand. It was after 5 p.m., and he and his interpreter rolled into Manassas, down a street of benign ranch houses strung with lights. They parked, walked to a door and knocked.

"Mrs. Chavez?" Victor Purchase asked in the quiet evening.

There had been a complaint, he said. The city needed to know not just how many people lived there but how they were related. He handed Leyla Chavez a form and explained that she could be prosecuted for lying.

"Okay," she said and, in a mild state of shock, began filling it out.

There was Chavez and her husband. Their two sons. A nephew. The man who rented downstairs. His girlfriend.

"Your nephew, under our law, is considered unrelated," Purchase said, then delivered the verdict: Two people had to go.

[dreamingwolf]

theres a flip side to this. Think about a town house community or an apartment complex in a not so urban area like manassas. Pretty much to navigate arround manassas you still need a car, busses are pretty good but the place is pretty spread out still and its not so easy to get arround sometimes.

So now you have 5 or 6 cars living in one house that figures at max would have 3 cars. Causes some problems.

Another sad thing that I have noticed in some neighborhoods is you can find 4 or 5 hispanics sitting in a car outside their house. When I first started noticing it I thought they were just picking someone up, but then I noticed that they havent moved in hours. Their car became their den, cause of not enough space due to over sharring.

As much as HOA's and zoning laws suck, the one good thing they do is maintain a standard for the area. I think the major reason most of these zoning laws are put into place is cause of parking rather then most peoples knee jerk reaction claim of racism or hate of immigrants.

I remember awhile back I was in a townhouse and I rented two rooms out to friends, and my little sister was going away to college in the spring and I was letting her stay there till she left for school. Well that was four cars in a town house environment, multiplied by when they or myself would have guests visit. Sure enough zoning came to me, not cause Im hispanic(which Im not) but cause someone complained about too many people living in the house(which could easily house 4 people, 3 bedrooms 3 full baths one of which was in the basement with its own exit). The law was 3 unrelateds, or relateds plus one unrelated.

So I doubt that zoning officials list was a list of hispanic sounding names, to sate some racist government officials needs of harrassing hispanics. I wager that list was a list of complaints of zoning infractions spurred from parking situations. When they came after me I understood why they were there and I didnt cry about it. I would have complied but they were nice enough to say if she was out when I said all was good(the complaint came in november and she was out in january).

Its all about parking. Try to make it out to be the white man hating everyone, but trust me zoning hits everyone regardless of race or the legality of their citizenship.

[Destino]

Nephew is unrelated? Good ol' family values. :doh:

If the problem is parking they should write zoning laws demanding builders make more damn parking. One thing I have noticed in stupid townhouse and apartment areas is that the morons building it assume people never come to visit and that kids don't drive. I've even seen places that have ONE car permit for homes clearly large enough for 2-3 people.

I have friends that live in nice areas where the nearest visiter parking spot is 2 blocks away. That's retarded.

[DeanCollins]

theres a flip side to this. Think about a town house community or an apartment complex in a not so urban area like manassas. Pretty much to navigate arround manassas you still need a car, busses are pretty good but the place is pretty spread out still and its not so easy to get arround sometimes.

So now you have 5 or 6 cars living in one house that figures at max would have 3 cars. Causes some problems.

Another sad thing that I have noticed in some neighborhoods is you can find 4 or 5 hispanics sitting in a car outside their house. When I first started noticing it I thought they were just picking someone up, but then I noticed that they havent moved in hours. Their car became their den, cause of not enough space due to over sharring.

As much as HOA's and zoning laws suck, the one good thing they do is maintain a standard for the area. I think the major reason most of these zoning laws are put into place is cause of parking rather then most peoples knee jerk reaction claim of racism or hate of immigrants.

Its all about parking. Try to make it out to be the white man hating everyone, but trust me zoning hits everyone regardless of race or the legality of their citizenship.

Excellent post.

It's very easy to feel "singled out" when code inforcement comes calling with zoning violations. Our constitution gives local goverment "special police powers" which includes zoning. We do have a choice. Zoning laws generally exist in cities and suburban counties. If you don't like them, then move out to the country. But if you are considering buying a house/dwelling, then you should first go online and look at that city/county's zoning ordinance to see if it agrees with your intended use of the property. Zoning rules are not discriminatory as they apply to everyone within that jurisdiction.

Being a contractor, I run into not only zoning rules but deed restricitions,

Home owners association rules. Once again the people who bought into those developments did so because the wanted uniformity and that needs to respected.

I do laugh when I hear about HOA backfires, such as the gated community in Socal that didn't allow motorcycles inside the gates, only to be made by the court to provide a parking lot just outside the gate, so now all the Harleys etc... are there for everyone to see when entering the development :laugh:

[Ignatius J.]

dreamingwolf, parking has nothing to do with it. If you want to limit the number of cars, limit the number of cars.

Keep the home looking nice. Fine. It affects other people's housing values.

Keep the streets clear enough so that people can park, also fine, just limit the number of parking permits per household. This policy has nothing to do with the number of cars parked outside since a "family" of five can park six automobiles on the street in these places.

And dreamingwolf, it was just as dumb when they came calling for you. I know it's the law, but it's a dumb law.

Markets are good things.

[dreamingwolf]

I agree markets are good things, and I agree with Dean collins about how markets do correct this. If you want to cram a house full of people, move to where it suits you or fly under the radar. I still contend parking is the reason behind the enforcement someone had to report them and something spurred them to do so and Im willing to wager it wasnt out of some civic duty to uphold every law.

Im sure there are some people somewhere that are so racist that they will use any legal weapon out there to f with a neighbor of another race, but I wager you that the majority of the complaints were over parking. I know for a fact the reason I got complained on was over parking, and its easy to see from my experience living arround "crowded houses" how it would spur people into it.

I remember way back when I lived in kings park, and there was a vietnamese family living next door. Had to be atleast 15 people living there, but you would never know it. there werent many cars, the place was clean as could be, and the noise was non existant. I doubt that house ever got called up on. I contend that these actions are not about singling out a particular race, but something those people did to rile up a neighbor enough to complain about their zoning infraction. Wether it be parking, putting lose trash out that blows all over the place, or raising hell at all hours. I would wager those are the causes of them being on a list wether they are hispanic or a bunch of white kids sharing a house.

I see no problem with townships and countys even developements creating laws defining what situations are acceptable. I know I have some friends who hate my stance on this cause they have a landlord who suspects that they are breaking zoning laws(which they are), and hes been trying to catch them. I understand that people have sympathy for people who want to crowd a house to make the rent and mortage easier to pay, but there are other dynamics that occur with that we have to understand. I still contend there are plenty of people infracting on zoning laws who never have to worry about it, cause they arent raising their neighbors ire. So again Im back to I wager its over parking those people are on the list.

[Prosperity]

dreamingwolf, parking has nothing to do with it. If you want to limit the number of cars, limit the number of cars.

Keep the home looking nice. Fine. It affects other people's housing values.

Keep the streets clear enough so that people can park, also fine, just limit the number of parking permits per household. This policy has nothing to do with the number of cars parked outside since a "family" of five can park six automobiles on the street in these places.

And dreamingwolf, it was just as dumb when they came calling for you. I know it's the law, but it's a dumb law.

Markets are good things.

Cars are obviously not the motivation behind this law, or else they would limit the number of cars, duh... Now that leaves us wondering what is the motivation behind this law? Is it to encourage large families to rent more apartments instead of buying a large house? Is it based in racism? I don't know. I would like the legislators to give their reason and hopefully have some logical explanation as to why their reason is good, because the explanation is anything but obvious.

[Prosperity]

I agree markets are good things, and I agree with Dean collins about how markets do correct this. If you want to cram a house full of people, move to where it suits you or fly under the radar. I still contend parking is the reason behind the enforcement someone had to report them and something spurred them to do so and Im willing to wager it wasnt out of some civic duty to uphold every law.

Im sure there are some people somewhere that are so racist that they will use any legal weapon out there to f with a neighbor of another race, but I wager you that the majority of the complaints were over parking. I know for a fact the reason I got complained on was over parking, and its easy to see from my experience living arround "crowded houses" how it would spur people into it.

I remember way back when I lived in kings park, and there was a vietnamese family living next door. Had to be atleast 15 people living there, but you would never know it. there werent many cars, the place was clean as could be, and the noise was non existant. I doubt that house ever got called up on. I contend that these actions are not about singling out a particular race, but something those people did to rile up a neighbor enough to complain about their zoning infraction. Wether it be parking, putting lose trash out that blows all over the place, or raising hell at all hours. I would wager those are the causes of them being on a list wether they are hispanic or a bunch of white kids sharing a house.

Then why aren't those other problems the legal cause instead of this seemingly BS law? If they were being loud then why isn't THAT the reason the situation is being 'corrected'?

[sumodat]

Cars are obviously not the motivation behind this law, or else they would limit the number of cars, duh... Now that leaves us wondering what is the motivation behind this law? Is it to encourage large families to rent more apartments instead of buying a large house? Is it based in racism? I don't know. I would like the legislators to give their reason and hopefully have some logical explanation as to why their reason is good, because the explanation is anything but obvious.

Uhhh....it is to keep 20 illegal immigrants from living in a three BR house! Am I exagerating? No! This is the story with my neigbors. And it is aggrivating as hell. They no longer have a driveway. They use the whole yard to park because there are about 7 cars.

This girl, who's dad owns a very large construction company, bought up a lot of houses in our area. She rents them to the immigrants who work for her dads construction co. This way they get cheap labor and high dollar rent. Being that there are so many people living in the house it is easy to afford high rent.

It is terrible! Loud music, sitting out in the yard drinking all the time. Cars coming in and out all the time.

I am all for this. :applause:

[Prosperity]

Uhhh....it is to keep 20 illegal immigrants from living in a three BR house! Am I exagerating? No! This is the story with my neigbors. And it is aggrivating as hell. They no longer have a driveway. They use the whole yard to park because there are about 7 cars.

This girl, who's dad owns a very large construction company, bought up a lot of houses in our area. She rents them to the immigrants who work for her dads construction co. This way they get cheap labor and high dollar rent. Being that there are so many people living in the house it is easy to afford high rent.

It is terrible! Loud music, sitting out in the yard drinking all the time. Cars coming in and out all the time.

I am all for this. :applause:

I know this happens a lot, in fact it is popular thing for large immigrant families to do because it saves money, and those families tend be closer together because of cultural reasons (compared to most Americans).

My solution:

Limit number of cars per house and limit the noise, those are good reasons to get the law involved, and it is a more accurate form of justice.

EDITED FOR CLARITY

[dreamingwolf]

I know this happens a lot, in fact it is popular thing for large immigrant families to do because it saves money, and those families tend be closer together because of cultural reasons (compared to most Americans).

My solution:

Limit number of cars per house and limit the noise, otherwise I see no need to get the Law involved. That is a more accurate form of justice.

how do you limit the cars and limit the noise without getting the law involved?

[Prosperity]

how do you limit the cars and limit the noise without getting the law involved?

Huh? I said you do get the law involved. If the noise and the number of cars aren't the problem then the law has no business butting in, unless I am somehow missing something.

[dreamingwolf]

Huh? You do get the law involved. If the noise and the number of cars aren't the problem then the law has no business butting in, unless I am somehow missing something.

but if they are infraction of zoning laws the law has no reason butting in?

your not making much sense. It sounds like your saying the law has the right to be applied only when its supposed to be applied but not when its supposed to be applied.

[sumodat]

I know this happens a lot, in fact it is popular thing for large immigrant families to do because it saves money, and those families tend be closer together because of cultural reasons (compared to most Americans).

My solution:

Limit number of cars per house and limit the noise, otherwise I see no need to get the Law involved. That is a more accurate form of justice.

Limiting the cars will not work. They will buy vans! You have to limit the amount of people who can live in a house.

I hope Anne Arundel county will adopt this law!

[Ignatius J.]

It's actually not racism at all. It's about rich people not wanting poor people living in thier neighborhoods.

sumodat, that also has nothing to do with the law. The law makes no statement prohibiting 20 illegal immigrants from living in a house, so you're wrong again.

I'm not debating that these communities have a right to make these laws. Of course they do. I'm just saying that they are stupid.

[sumodat]

It's actually not racism at all. It's about rich people not wanting poor people living in thier neighborhoods.

sumodat, that also has nothing to do with the law. The law makes no statement prohibiting 20 illegal immigrants from living in a house, so you're wrong again.

I'm not debating that these communities have a right to make these laws. Of course they do. I'm just saying that they are stupid.

I am wrong again? That was the first thing I said!

I know the law does not say that, obviously. I wish it did. That is what I want. I don't want 20 immigrants living next to me in a 3 BR house. It is not big enough for them all. There is too much trash, too many cars, too much traffic, too much noise, etc...

And the fact that they are "stupid" is strictly YOUR opinion. I do not think they are stupid!

[Prosperity]

but if they are infraction of zoning laws the law has no reason butting in?

your not making much sense. It sounds like your saying the law has the right to be applied only when its supposed to be applied but not when its supposed to be applied.

I am making perfect sense

We both know the legislator can make any law it pleases, that isn't what I care about. I am talking about whether the law makes sense or not. This law makes NO SENSE and should be changed.

I think every law ought to have a compelling reason to exist. I see no compelling reason why this law should exist. You mention cars and someone mentioned noise, that tells me there is a compelling reason to make laws to limit noise and the number of cars not to change the definition of family relations or to limit the number of people in a house.

Like I said, if they are worried about cars then why not limit the cars? If you want to limit the noise then why not limit the noise? Can you give me a reason?

[Prosperity]

I am wrong again? That was the first thing I said!

I know the law does not say that, obviously. I wish it did. That is what I want. I don't want 20 immigrants living next to me in a 3 BR house. It is not big enough for them all. There is too much trash, too many cars, too much traffic, too much noise, etc...

And the fact that they are "stupid" is strictly YOUR opinion. I do not think they are stupid!

No it is very clearly stupid.

Tell me this, why not make laws concerning trash, cars, and noise? I see nothing intrisically wrong with x number of people living in a house with y number of rooms.

As dreamingwolf said a bunch of immigrants (or Americans for that matter) can live in one place and yet easily maintain a nice appearance.

[Prosperity]

Limiting the cars will not work. They will buy vans! You have to limit the amount of people who can live in a house.

I hope Anne Arundel county will adopt this law!

What is the problem with vans? Do you have a problem with the immigrants themselves?

Ignatius, are you so sure this isn't about racism? Racism and class conflict might not be discernable in this case.

[Ignatius J.]

You know what else, I have even less problem with a law that says only y number of people per house. Unfortunately It's fine for a catholic faily of 20 to live in these houses. That's where things get a little bit funny. Again the law says nothing about maximum occupancy. so that must not be it either. It's an anti-poor law, that's it.

These laws are all about a certain idealism that wants to be perpetuated. Houses are for families. How can we have laws that say that?

And Liberty, dreamingwolf misunderstood your post, I think your sentance structure was a bit funny, so you guys are really arguing over nothing, I think.

Wolf, liberty was just saying that the law should be involved in cases like: cars, trash, drinking out front, not mowing the lawn, and NOT in cases where the activites are basically legal inside the home, but illegal because of the zoning law alone.

[sumodat]

No it is very clearly stupid.

Tell me this, why not make laws concerning trash, cars, and noise? I see nothing intrisically wrong with x number of people living in a house with y number of rooms.

As dreamingwolf said a bunch of immigrants (or Americans for that matter) can live in one place and yet easily maintain a nice appearance.

I wouldn't care if they were american. I don't want 20 people living in a house not meant for it. You have to realize that there are things that are a byfactors from too many people in a house not suited for that many people.

A three bedroom house is built to house about no more than 6 people. That is 2 to a bedroom. Now, if you convert a basement into a BR, than you could fit a couple more.

But 20?

C'mon!

That is unsanitary.

[dreamingwolf]

well liberty your upset about people using law, then you say people should use law. which is it? I know you dont/arent willing to understand why there are zoning laws, even though suprising you understand when I say if you fly below the radar you get away with it.

You cant pass laws on the number of cars, cause people have to be able to have guests. In places outside of condos and apartment buildings, the street is public you cant issue parking passes. City of Manassas does how ever chalk tires, and will ticket cars that dont move over a 24 hour period but thats about all they can do.

Trash. it is almost impossible to attribute spread debris to its owner even if everyone including the police agree to the source. what are you gonna finger print the trash? Unless you have video tape of the lose trash leaving the culprits lawn.

So you see its not so easy, so people get frustrated and use zoning laws to curb the behavior.

You keep challenging me on my points but Im saying why people are getting called up on zoning infractions and you attack me on the legal point of it. You then said the law shouldnt be involved, but then you said the law should be involved. Your not making sense, your big brain is out thinking yourself. Instead of just trying to break down someone else, how about just make a consistant point.

[sumodat]

What is the problem with vans? Do you have a problem with the immigrants themselves?

Ignatius, are you so sure this isn't about racism? Racism and class conflict might not be discernable in this case.

And I don't have a problem with vans. I am just saying, if you limit their cars, they will just pile into vans to get around that law.

The law should be a certain # of people to a certain # of BR's in a house.

[Prosperity]

I wouldn't care if they were american. I don't want 20 people living in a house not meant for it. You have to realize that there are things that are a byfactors from too many people in a house not suited for that many people.

A three bedroom house is built to house about no more than 6 people. That is 2 to a bedroom. Now, if you convert a basement into a BR, than you could fit a couple more.

But 20?

C'mon!

That is unsanitary.

I don't know about unsanitary, at the dorm in my school they manage to fit 2 sometimes even 3 people in a room half the size of the one I have at my home. Some rooms are really clean and tidy, my room looks like crap, but that is because my roommate and I are messy, unorganized assholes. Thanks to modern technology (indoor plumbing) sanitation is not a problem. There are 4 bathrooms for 24 people yet somehow all the waste gets flushed away (well, best case scenario anyway).

If 20 people can live in a house and NOT produce these "byfactors" would you have a problem with it?

The alternative solution of dealing with just the byfactors will only target the people who are causing problems for their neighbors (noise, trash, cars) and will leave alone those who are not causing the problems for their neighbors.

[dreamingwolf]

anti-poor come on, really its pro-rich. Slum lords love the lefts support on this. Its a great way to glob alot of money by crowding a house.

Now this dynamic should ring true with you leftys. When you have a single property over populated, you are reducing your property taxes cause you are reducing the number of instances of need of property. Property taxes are how we fund our school system, and thus by encouraging over population of a property by not enforcing controls you are infact reducing property tax collections.

Also its an interesting fact someone decided to go bigot on catholics while in the same breath saying people are anti-hispanic. Its always amazing to me how people on the left can be bigoted and still feel holier than thou on tolerance. Im not catholic but its really suprising how leftists can say some really foul things about catholics and jews(like moran did) and theres almost no condemnation of it. Its reall strange.