A football officials perspective of what happened

[scruffylookin]

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. :nana:

If you can't tell he's down at that angle then maybe you should look into becoming an NFL official, because you are certainly blind enough to qualify.

Very funny.

Too bad your picture is after Alstott is down and his elbow had already crossed. It's like taking a picture of Clinton Portis tossing the ball to the ground after he scores and say...."you see he fumbled I have proof"

In your pic, Alstott's back is down and the play is over, mine has him still moving forward, though his about to be driven to the ground.

Again. Show me a a reverse angle that clearly shows the ball not crossing the goalline in this picture.

[natsfan3]

Very funny.

Too bad you're picture is after Alstott is down and his elbow had already crossed. It's like taking a picture of Clinton Portis tossing the ball to the ground after he scores and say...."you see he fumbled I have proof"

Again. Show me a a reverse angle that clearly shows the ball not crossing the goalline in this picture.

I don't know what your looking at, but he is clearly holding the ball and it is NOT ACROSS THE LINE. Unless Maybe he is Gumby.

[scruffylookin]

I don't know what your looking at, but he is clearly holding the ball and it is NOT ACROSS THE LINE. Unless Maybe he is Gumby.

Natsfan,

Which picture are you refering too?

The first one posted by Skinzrule I would agree he is down and not in.

The one I've posted shows his elbow (with the ball tucked in it) crossing the goalline and he's not down.

Again, I'm not saying he's necessarily in, I'm just pointing out that there is no clear evidence that shows that he didn't get in and so the ruling on the field stands.

I really have no idea why I'm even making this arguement anymore. I'm as disappointed as anyone that the Skins lost yesterday and the last thing I want to do is argue with fellow Skins fans and be on the side of the officials.

With that said, I am right and everyone else is wrong.

[skinsfan51]

Very funny.

Too bad you're picture is after Alstott is down and his elbow had already crossed. It's like taking a picture of Clinton Portis tossing the ball to the ground after he scores and say...."you see he fumbled I have proof"

In your pic, Alstott's back is down and the play is over, mine has him still moving forward, though he is about to be driven to the ground.

Again. Show me a a reverse angle that clearly shows the ball not crossing the goalline in this picture.

Alstott's elbow is the first part of his body to touch the ground. His back is on a player. He was down. No conversion. It's pretty clear.

[Dan T.]

I respect your perspective as an official but sorry Kingdaddy, Alstott was not down prior to his right elbow crossing the goalline.

This screen capture is taken before Alstott goes down and his elbow hit the ground and then lunges forward. You could say that it doesn't show the ball crossing the goalline, but it sure as hell also doesn't show the ball not crossing the goalline, the call needs to stand.

So the call needs to stand because of this one crappy view? A shot from beyond the end zone clearly shows his elbow on the ground before the goal line. As soon as his elbow hits the ground BEFORE the goal line, he is DOWN.

[Brave]

Kingdaddy, what were your thoughts on the Betts return for a TD?

[scruffylookin]

So the call needs to stand because of this one crappy view? A shot from beyond the end zone clearly shows his elbow on the ground before the goal line. As soon as his elbow hits the ground BEFORE the goal line, he is DOWN.

Crappy view?

This view shows Alstott's elbow (that has the ball) crossing the goalline before he goes down. You cannot provide me with one shot prior to my picture that shows Alstott being down. Are you saying that somehow Alstott's elbow hit the ground and then he got up again?

I did the the screen cap for this pic. This pic is taken BEFORE any shot you've seen of his elbow down. This pic isn't of Alstott lunging forward after he is down. This is Alstott when he first hits the line of scrimmage and is about to be driven down to the ground and then lunges forward.

I still don't know why people insist on saying this picture doesn't matter because his elbow was down in some other picture.

[rdsknfan]

Crappy view?

This view shows Alstott's elbow (that has the ball) crossing the goalline before he goes down. You cannot provide me with one shot prior to my picture that shows Alstott being down. Are you saying that somehow Alstott's elbow hit the ground and then he got up again?

I did the the screen cap for this pic. This pic is taken BEFORE any shot you've seen of his elbow down. This pic isn't of Alstott lunging forward after he is down. This is Alstott when he first hits the line of scrimmage and is about to be driven down to the ground and then lunges forward.

I still don't know why people insist on saying this picture doesn't matter because his elbow was down in some other picture.

What does it matter now...the refs made a bad call. Even if Alstott's elbow hit the plane, the ball did not. The ball must at least touch the plane of the goalline to be considered good. When he got hit, he got turned around, then went down, his back to the goal line, elbow hits the ground. It was only after he lunged again that he crossed the goalline, but at that point the play is already over. Hasn't been the first time we got screwed on a call and won't be the last.

:helmet:

[scruffylookin]

What does it matter now...the refs made a bad call. Even if Alstott's elbow hit the plane, the ball did not. The ball must at least touch the plane of the goalline to be considered good. When he got hit, he got turned around, then went down, his back to the goal line, elbow hits the ground. It was only after he lunged again that he crossed the goalline, but at that point the play is already over. Hasn't been the first time we got screwed on a call and won't be the last.

:helmet:

Are you sure the ball didn't cross the goalline? You've conceded that his elbow did cross, isn't it possible (assuming the ball is tucked tight against his elbow) that a fraction of that ball did cross when the elbow did?

But I'll digress and say that now we're on to something. I posted in another thread or was it earlier in this one, I don't remember anymore that the original call that Alstott was in may very well have been a bad call and we did indeed get screwed. My point in this exercise is to say that there is no clear evidence to suggest that he didn't get in, so the ruling on the field had to be upheld.....even though it might have been wrong.

[SkinzRool]

Look at where his elbow is in the picture. It is clearly touching the ground at least 6 inches BEFORE the goal line. Play should have been dead right there. Another BS call against us which cost the game.

[KDawg]

Natsfan,

Which picture are you refering too?

The first one posted by Skinzrule I would agree he is down and not in.

The one I've posted shows his elbow (with the ball tucked in it) crossing the goalline and he's not down.

Again, I'm not saying he's necessarily in, I'm just pointing out that there is no clear evidence that shows that he didn't get in and so the ruling on the field stands.

I really have no idea why I'm even making this arguement anymore. I'm as disappointed as anyone that the Skins lost yesterday and the last thing I want to do is argue with fellow Skins fans and be on the side of the officials.

With that said, I am right and everyone else is wrong.

You're actually trying to lead people on incorrectly with that photo. If you notice, your line that you drew is NOT parallel with the goal line. Alstott's elbow is NOT passed the plane there.

[Plane Thrower]

Alstott's elbow is the first part of his body to touch the ground. His back is on a player. He was down. No conversion. It's pretty clear.

If he is on top of another player he is NOT down. If only his elbow is on the ground then he is NOT down. Don't go claiming that Aikman even said he "didn't look like he made it" and want to run with that when he ALSO said if he "was on top of another player then he wasn't down" and just ignore it. You can't have it both ways. Whether you like it or not, Alstott scored. The sooner you get over it the sooner you can go on with your lives.

[KDawg]

If he is on top of another player he is NOT down. If only his elbow is on the ground then he is NOT down. Don't go claiming that Aikman even said he "didn't look like he made it" and want to run with that when he ALSO said if he "was on top of another player then he wasn't down" and just ignore it. You can't have it both ways. Whether you like it or not, Alstott scored. The sooner you get over it the sooner you can go on with your lives.

You're also incorrect. If his elbow touched the ground, he is down. If his HAND touched, that's a different story... But once a knee, elbow or any body part in between touches the turf after contact, the play is over and you are down.

[kingdaddy]

Kingdaddy, what were your thoughts on the Betts return for a TD?

Good question. That was extremely close, but, the officials did the right thing by letting it go and allowing replay to make the call. It was not clear during the play (live) that he stepped out of bounds although it looked like he might have. The officials on that sideline were right to let the play go and let the cameras decide, even if they were wrong on the field by not calling him out.

[kingdaddy]

Look at where his elbow is in the picture. It is clearly touching the ground at least 6 inches BEFORE the goal line. Play should have been dead right there. Another BS call against us which cost the game.

[kingdaddy]

I'm telling you, the official on the sideline choked by making the signal that he crossed the plane of the goal line. If asked today, under oath, he would not be able to matter of factly say that the ball crossed before the elbow was down. That call is one of the most difficult to make in football because none of the refs have a good look at it due to all of the bodies in on the play. That's why the ref should have come in and said, "I didn't see it" and should have marked him short or asked for help. Replay can decide what really happened in 99% of the calls. To say he got in without seeing it for sure is simply a guess.

[kingdaddy]

In all sincerity I have a question for you. I have never been an official so I wouldn't know. Have you ever feared for your safety or do you know any cases where another ref has? I did play sports in high school and played in places that I didn't know if we were gonna get stabbed or shot before we got out. I felt that as an athlete who didn't have to make a game changing call. However, I would like to know your answer.

No, I have never feared for my safety while officiating a football game. Granted, its high school, but I've worked games with crowds reported as high as 13,000 and security is barely visible. I don't think that played into the officials mind when making this call. I think he did not see the play and guessed. Honestly, this type of call happens a lot when there is a big pile up, it's hard to see when the knee or elbow is down or if the ball ever crossed the goal line. By running in and waiting until Alstott moved the ball while on his back, I don't think the official was sure about what happened before that move. I also don't think the head referee took long enough to look at the replays. If he had taken longer, he'd have seen what all of us saw and concluded that there was no way that ball crossed before he was down. Alstott never moved the ball up to his chest until he was on his back, laying on the goal line. That's when the official saw him and gave the td signal.

[kingdaddy]

I respect your perspective as an official but sorry Kingdaddy, Alstott was not down prior to his right elbow crossing the goalline.

This screen capture is taken before Alstott goes down and his elbow hit the ground and then lunges forward. You could say that it doesn't show the ball crossing the goalline, but it sure as hell also doesn't show the ball not crossing the goalline, the call needs to stand.

The official who made the call had this same angle. Explain to me how he saw the ball clearly cross the goal line. How can he see that Alstott is carrying the ball down by his gut as opposed to his chest. The replays clearly showed it. What this picture shows is Alstotts back and shoulders crossing. No one is disputing that. The fact is, the ball never crossed until he was on his back. All of America saw the same thing, and the official on the line could not have been able to tell. He guessed.

[Drockvb]

I agree with you, and also agree with the idea that the skins just plain lost. It seems the last couple of years the Skins have been getting screwed with bad calls. Alstott's elbow was clearly down before the goal line. That plain and simple cost us the game. It is disheartening. This was a big game for us to loose, and to have it stolen like that sucks. I think the ref was scared not to call that play in Tampa's favor. Home field advantage Tampa Bay. If that happened at Fed Ex, i believe we get the call. But still, I have to say the Skins lost this game as a team. Turnovers and penalties time after time. I don't even know why Greg Williams calls a blitz. They can't even get to the quaterback when they blitz. Why blitz? It is ridiculous. This team is only going to get better when they finally have a pass rushing defensive end. Until then, this team is going nowhere.

[scruffylookin]

Look at where his elbow is in the picture. It is clearly touching the ground at least 6 inches BEFORE the goal line. Play should have been dead right there. Another BS call against us which cost the game.

Sorry, his elbow is not touching the ground in the picture. His elbow doesn't hit until he's driven down to the ground AFTER this picture.

[scruffylookin]

The official who made the call had this same angle. Explain to me how he saw the ball clearly cross the goal line. How can he see that Alstott is carrying the ball down by his gut as opposed to his chest. The replays clearly showed it. What this picture shows is Alstotts back and shoulders crossing. No one is disputing that. The fact is, the ball never crossed until he was on his back. All of America saw the same thing, and the official on the line could not have been able to tell. He guessed.

We are in some agreement Kingdaddy.

I agree that there is no way the official saw the ball cross the goalline on Alstott's initial surge. No signal was made until they ran in and saw him lying in the endzone.

Replay clearly shows that he got there by surging AFTER his elbow hit the ground and thus he was down right there. The reason why the refs ruled it good (Alstott in the endzone) was incorrect and replay would have been enough to overrule them if that was the only time the ball got past the goalline.

BUT

I believe when looking at the replay, the ref saw that initial surge and Alstott's elbow clearly crosses the goalline before any other part of his body. They were unable to get a clear look at this from their vantage point on the goalline. This view was something new to them since the players were in the way when they viewed the play live. Was this clear evidence that he was in? No way. But there is enough there for some degree of doubt and I believe it is that doubt that led the ref to let the ruling on the field stand.

If they had ruled that he did not score, I believe that would have stood too. It was a really really close call that went against us.

[MCnDaHouse]

Whatever happened to the refs huddling before making a call when there is doubt? I saw the ref run up like he didn't know what happened. Then without consulting anyone he suddenly decides Alstott is in. I mean he made his call after the play was over and alstott had rolled forward.

[36HAMMER]

I want to thank you guys, having now spoken about this play adnausem :puke: now i'm done.it's over for me. i'm moving on to next week.i won't change anyones view and they won't change mine. and most important of all i can change the out come.now to set sights on the raiders.we just have to learn how to put teams away. :nutkick: :laythehur :whippin: here's to raiding the raiders.

[kingdaddy]

Whatever happened to the refs huddling before making a call when there is doubt? I saw the ref run up like he didn't know what happened. Then without consulting anyone he suddenly decides Alstott is in. I mean he made his call after the play was over and alstott had rolled forward.

That is exactly what should have happened. The best part about officiating football is that the game does allow officials to talk about results of plays, fouls, etc....

Officials make mistakes but it's the unnecessary mistakes that get fans, players and coaches so pissed off. How in his right mind did that side official say Galloway was pushed/forced out of bounds? I'm telling you all, he was either influenced by the sideline, panicked or just out and out sucks as an official. If that's a force out then guys might as well not even hit receivers who are within 7 feet of the sideline.

As for the 2 point conversion, the official should have run in and said to the umpire, "I couldn't see the ball, did you have him in?" If the umpire says that he did not, then the side judge should have asked if the umpire saw a knee down at any point. You can't just award a touchdown if you aren't sure if you saw the ball cross the goal line. That's the point I'm trying to make.

OK, I'm moving on and letting Joe Gibbs deal with this issue until the refs screw up this Sunday.

[Davethegolfguy]

It just flat out hurts to lose in this fashion.