Cheney Pushes Senate for CIA Exemption on Torture

[twa]

Just to clarify something,torture is likely to be by chemical means(sodium penethal,ect) and mind f#@$% rather than racking or thumbscrews,although a redhot needle coming at my eye would be effective.

The simple fact the option is available is effective. imo

[Barney B]

Why yes, yes I do. Now STFU and grow a pair.

Uncalled for.

[Redskins Diehard]

Outright torture in its most intense form is wrong in my opinion. But some would construe sleep deprivation, stress positions, sensory deprivation and overload, etc as "torture". Do I think we should be lopping off fingers and using practices of that nature? No. But 3 meals and 8 hours of sleep is what some are demanding for these people. I've seen guys get picked up putting out IEDs demand water and food. Are you kidding me? Some on this board may claim that they are entitled to that. Lets give them a warm comfortable bed to sleep in and 3 squares a day. Wouldn't want these people to be uncomfortable would we?

For the record, the Geneva Convention does not provide protection to a great majority of these people. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed combatants that represent a nation. Below I have provided some information on 2 particular groups that are not afforded those protections. It is useless to cite the GC in this argument.

"The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups — and thus endanger the civilian population — are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention."

[chomerics]

Torture is not only wrong, it is un-American. The second we start acting like the thugs we are fighting, we have ALREADY lost the war because we have decided to become like them.

Torture is 100% NOT acceptable, it is not how the leader of the free world operates. You want to torture people, go move to Syria or Saudi Arabia where this stuff is condoned. You want to live in America, then you can't torture people.

Why don't you people ask the 89 senators why it is wrong. Why don't you look at history to understand what the problems are. The entirely ironic fact is somehow missed by you guys. How the hell can you be "promoting democracy" by comprimising your OWN democracy.

I am sorry, but even IF vital information could be found, it is something you CAN NOT DO!!!!!! You can not sacrifice the freedoms you hold dear and try to promote a war based on those freedoms when you don't obey them yourself. We ARE NOT TERRORISTS!!!!! We are NOT SYRIA!!!! We should NEVER torture anyone in the name of our government, ESPECIALLY when trying to promote "our form" of democracy.

[chomerics]

I will be open minded about this idea if

1. The circumstances are as dire as possible, ie the unlikely scenario presented above

2. It will become public who gets tortured and why

3. There must be some sort of trial to figure out if the person was guilty, if not then the people responsible must be punished thoroughly, including jail time.

4. Accountability has to go to the highest levels, some random CIA spook can't take the fall for #3

5. for this to be legal the law must be exteneded (or stopped) every 2 years, or sooner, it can never under any circumstance become legal for good

6. The tortured person must not be killed or maimed, until they have a trial

Even after all that I have to wonder if the gov will inevitably abuse it, my guess is that once we give the gov this power we won't be able to take it away and there will be rampant abuse.

Liberty, I am really suprised you candone torture in ANY circumstance. You NEVER give the government the power to torture people and make them disappear, that is what seperates us from the brutal totaliarian regimes.

[chomerics]

For the record, the Geneva Convention does not provide protection to a great majority of these people. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed combatants that represent a nation. Below I have provided some information on 2 particular groups that are not afforded those protections. It is useless to cite the GC in this argument.

"The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups — and thus endanger the civilian population — are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention."

Ahhh, the Gonzalez defense. . . that argument kind of gets eliminated in Iraq though doens't it? I mean the only way out is that they are not a uniformed group. Are you really using that to justify an illegal act in our countries name?

[Prosperity]

Liberty, I am really suprised you candone torture in ANY circumstance. You NEVER give the government the power to torture people and make them disappear, that is what seperates us from the brutal totaliarian regimes.

I didn't say I was for it, I would consider the idea under those circumstances, I still don't know if it would be acceptable, but if I think it will be at some point, then it has to include those circumstances. This is a very tough subject. on the one hand we have the responsobility to defend people, on the other we don't want to disregard the rights of accused people. It is too tough of a subject to make a clear distinction. Too many contradictions to be able to make a clear cut answer. In the end I think I might be against it just because the government will inevatibly break the rules that I think it should abide by.

[Sarge]

Torture is not only wrong, it is un-American. The second we start acting like the thugs we are fighting, we have ALREADY lost the war because we have decided to become like them.

Torture is 100% NOT acceptable, it is not how the leader of the free world operates. You want to torture people, go move to Syria or Saudi Arabia where this stuff is condoned. You want to live in America, then you can't torture people.

Why don't you people ask the 89 senators why it is wrong. Why don't you look at history to understand what the problems are. The entirely ironic fact is somehow missed by you guys. How the hell can you be "promoting democracy" by comprimising your OWN democracy.

I am sorry, but even IF vital information could be found, it is something you CAN NOT DO!!!!!! You can not sacrifice the freedoms you hold dear and try to promote a war based on those freedoms when you don't obey them yourself. We ARE NOT TERRORISTS!!!!! We are NOT SYRIA!!!! We should NEVER torture anyone in the name of our government, ESPECIALLY when trying to promote "our form" of democracy.

I'm SOOOOOOOOO glad you aren't in charge of anything dealing with national security. And if you ever do run for office, please state your real name at every press conference, and mention the fact that you used the name "Chomerics" on a Redskins message board. That way I know who to vote against, and I'm sure after a few thousand people catch wind that you have esstentially written your Mein Kamph here over the years, and get a chance to read it, they can vote against you as well.

You and your unwillingness to do whatever it takes to preserve this country would essentially doom us to a repeat of this

As I continually state, there's a reason the American public doesn't trust the left in regard to anything dealing with national security. ANd nearly every day, you keep affirming my point.

[Mad Mike]

Torture is not only wrong, it is un-American. The second we start acting like the thugs we are fighting, we have ALREADY lost the war because we have decided to become like them.

Torture is 100% NOT acceptable, it is not how the leader of the free world operates. You want to torture people, go move to Syria or Saudi Arabia where this stuff is condoned. You want to live in America, then you can't torture people.

Why don't you people ask the 89 senators why it is wrong. Why don't you look at history to understand what the problems are. The entirely ironic fact is somehow missed by you guys. How the hell can you be "promoting democracy" by comprimising your OWN democracy.

I am sorry, but even IF vital information could be found, it is something you CAN NOT DO!!!!!! You can not sacrifice the freedoms you hold dear and try to promote a war based on those freedoms when you don't obey them yourself. We ARE NOT TERRORISTS!!!!! We are NOT SYRIA!!!! We should NEVER torture anyone in the name of our government, ESPECIALLY when trying to promote "our form" of democracy.

BOOOM!!!!!!!!! There goes NY City. Millions have just lost the freedom to LIVE. But Chom sleeps well at night firm in the knowledge he has done the right thing.

[Prosperity]

The American public includes the "left" did you forget that?

[Sarge]

The American public includes the "left" did you forget that?

You talkin' ta me?

[Prosperity]

who else?? You are the one that tries to make it seem like the "left" is some outside group that is trying to hurt the American Public, while forgetting that the left is part of the American Public (about half of it in fact).

[Sarge]

The American public includes the "left" did you forget that?

Yep, men that do whatever it takes to win save you all every day, despite yourself.

Have you not read my sig over the years?

[Prosperity]

I don't see the connection between my post and your last one. What does your sig have to do with all this?

[Fred Jones]

First, torture should be kept out of the military and kept in the hands of the CIA or like organization.

Tough call to allow torture or not. Some problems.

1. Opens up for other nations/organizations/bad people to torture our people - yes some do it now, but this will allow everyone to do it.

2. Slippery slope - when does it stop or is there a line that will not be crossed.

3. We are now just as bad as they are.

4. Should be used in addition to good intel work and not instead of.

5. What would the founding fathers say?

On the other hand, it can lead to lives being saved and freedom maintained.

[Sarge]

I don't see the connection between my post and your last one. What does your sig have to do with all this?

Ah, all I caught was "Who else" before you added to it

who else?? You are the one that tries to make it seem like the "left" is some outside group that is trying to hurt the American Public, while forgetting that the left is part of the American Public (about half of it in fact).

The left is indeed American. Sometimes it makes me sick to think about all I and others like me do so idiots from the left can espouse their anti- American crap.

In the case of Chom, it's noble to not want to torture someone. I'm not for it in routine uses either. I'd prefer we didn't have to use it at all. But his unwillingness to use it handicaps the good guys and gives us one less tool to use if we have to.

Unfortunately, we're not dealing with noble people, we're dealing with barbarians that would end our way of life in a heartbeat if they had the power.

In situations like that, you do what you have to do. If that means you put someones nuts in one of the fine products the Craftsman company produces and clamp it shut, well........................

[twa]

chom...curious where you stand in reguards to chemicaly induced interogations of terrorists?

Seeing as how a form of marijuana was one of the early "truth" serums I am curious.

[Sarge]

Seeing as how a form of marijuana was one of the early "truth" serums I am curious.

Chom should be talking up a storm any minute :laugh:

[nelms]

BOOOM!!!!!!!!! There goes NY City. Millions have just lost the freedom to LIVE. But Chom sleeps well at night firm in the knowledge he has done the right thing.

I've tried making this point over and over again. A great line from Spock in Star Trek II, as he's dying from radiation exposure: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". If we have to sacrifice a life to prevent the death of thousands of Americans, then it is the only logical thing to do.

[endzone_dave]

Maybe if we had tortured some people we would have known there weren't any WMDs in Iraq.

Think of the money torture could save. Instead of spending billions to gather the crappy information we get now from the CIA, we could spend a few million, torture a some people and get better results. Heck we might even be able to find bin Laden.

We could replace the CIA with the TIA (Torture Intelligence Agency). We could hire a few ex-WWF wrestlers and that's all you need. If The Rock couldn't find out about a pending nuclear attack, who could?

[nelms]

Maybe if we had tortured some people we would have known there weren't any WMDs in Iraq.

Think of the money torture could save. Instead of spending billions to gather the crappy information we get now from the CIA, we could spend a few million, torture a some people and get better results. Heck we might even be able to find bin Laden.

We could replace the CIA with the TIA (Torture Intelligence Agency). We could hire a few ex-WWF wrestlers and that's all you need. If The Rock couldn't find out about a pending nuclear attack, who could?

I like your thinking son. :thumbsup: Let's get the Rock to lay the smack down on their candy asses.

[Sarge]

Maybe if we had tortured some people we would have known there weren't any WMDs in Iraq.

Think of the money torture could save. Instead of spending billions to gather the crappy information we get now from the CIA, we could spend a few million, torture a some people and get better results. Heck we might even be able to find bin Laden.

We could replace the CIA with the TIA (Torture Intelligence Agency). We could hire a few ex-WWF wrestlers and that's all you need. If The Rock couldn't find out about a pending nuclear attack, who could?

Now you're thinkin'!

[Prosperity]

I've tried making this point over and over again. A great line from Spock in Star Trek II, as he's dying from radiation exposure: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". If we have to sacrifice a life to prevent the death of thousands of Americans, then it is the only logical thing to do.

A libertarian says this?

Communists can use that to justify whatever they want. The needs of 50 poor people outweigh your need to buy a new car.

[Chopper Dave]

You know Sarge, I believe in torture. I believe it works, and I believe that it's essential, and that our government has been uncharactersically cowardly in its non-implementation of it. But Jesus ****ing Christ, if there was ever a way to discourage me from that opinion, it would be reading the posts of a supporter like you. Can you ever present something without sounding like an elitist pig?

[Mad Mike]

Maybe if we had tortured some people we would have known there weren't any WMDs in Iraq.

Think of the money torture could save. Instead of spending billions to gather the crappy information we get now from the CIA, we could spend a few million, torture a some people and get better results. Heck we might even be able to find bin Laden.

We could replace the CIA with the TIA (Torture Intelligence Agency). We could hire a few ex-WWF wrestlers and that's all you need. If The Rock couldn't find out about a pending nuclear attack, who could?

Maybe this guy...