Bang Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 The point?That a free market company made record profits in a free market? shocking. Nice personal swipe though bang. I dont expect that kind of thing from you. Don't consider it personal., Consider it a broad sweep at those who would laugh at crystal clear exploitation. You're not the only one I wouldn't expect to get it. You're just the one laughing loudest. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Kilmer, In a free market, I think people would have ahard time disagreeing with you. But this is not a free market. President Bush and his congress just passed a large energy bill under the pretext that energy needed more subsidization at the expense of taxpayers. I actually don't blame the oil companies, I am no populist and will; not begrudge a man his profit. (especially since I also own some stock) BUT, the governments role in this whole mess is dirty. The US government doe snot belong in the business of bailing out industries. The fact that the people making the most profit have been in bed with the president for some time now makes this all the more sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 You know, if you don't want to pay for gas you could change your behavior. Move close to where you work and purchase a bike, or live somewhere where you are unaffected by soaring energy prices. Of course these decisions were made before the price of gas soared. If you read any books on economic policy and the free market, the cost of oil is run by OPEC a cartel and not dictacted by gas companies. Perhaps our Saudi "friends" are the ones marking up the prices. It's not exactly a free market because of this cartel. Government intervention/regulation is normally the WORST THING that can happen to consumers. The bottom line is that consumers bought the product at the price it was offered for. Yes, it would be nice to have alternative energy... but shouldn't the market dictate that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 The point?That a free market company made record profits in a free market? shocking. The current oil idustry is hardly a free market. The cartel of companies in control are not compelled to compete with each other in the current market structure, and our government is also handing them taxpayer money by the bushel basket. ps - I own Exxon and Chevron stock. hooray for me. it's still dirty business what is happening right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbblakemore Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 I've been watching the oil and gas markets closely now for the last nine months or so, following my investments -- and I've got to say that I'm stunned by the ignorance I'm seeing in this thread. Half of the posts are blaming the oil companies for engineering higher prices, and the other half are blaming environmentalists for not allowing wholesale destruction of the ecosystem. I probably shouldn't be too surprised, since the mainstream media and the politicians are broken into the same groups, and pointing the same fingers at each other. But it's just flat WRONG. Energy prices have been rising for the last year or so, as both the Chinese and Indian economies are exploding, as are their energy demands. Since there's only so much oil production in the world, when demand increases and supply either decreases or remains the same, prices go up. It's not about hurricanes or conspiracies or environmental laws. If you get nothing else from my post, please understand this simple truth. There is only so much oil and gas in the world, and the more we use, the less there is -- and we've already found and pumped the oil and gas that was easy to find and cheap to get. Even if there is NO increase in demand from all sources, the amount of available oil is going down and will be more expensive to get. New exploration and drilling, for the most part, barely keeps up with our existing usage -- in effect, we're spending more money to keep from falling behind. Are there things that we as a nation could have done, or could do, to decrease our own energy demands? Absolutely, but not enough to offset the growing demand in other countries. Could we have done things to increase our own energy production? Probably, but in a free market economy, private investors need a return on their investment in order to assume the risks of that investment. Why should anyone invest a couple of billion dollars when the two alternatives are (1) lose money because it was a bad investment or (2) make no money because of a windfall profit tax that declares your profits to be "excessive"? If you want to decouple oil exploration from profits, there's only one way to do it, namely, to make the federal government in charge of the entire process. After all, they've done such a wonderful job with Social Security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Oil is no different than eggs. Oil is no different than milk. If every milk company decided we were going to charge 32$ a gallon of milk and make Historical Record profits and there's no shortage? What would be the statement then. Good, I'm glad i bought milk subsidies? Let the market decide who get calcium and who doesnt? Let the market right itself? You insert Microsoft in there instead of Exxon and people are crying foul because they wouldnt let a competitor put their browser in their product and made places like Best buy put their product into machines.. Something you don't NEED to have.. yet the outrage was there... Shale oil, Anwar and Superhybrids would ruin the stock as the US uses 25% of the Worlds oil so if we were selling it also and using 1/30th of what we were it would go back to 50 cents a gallon... I guess i just have to be glad Eggs arent a stock? or that at least they have 0 change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 You guys making excuses for this.. it's laughable. Prices go thru the roof, they get enormous tax cuts, then post record profits.Make all the excuses you want. The French did do one thing right in their history. They lined up the greedy and the exploitive and cut their damned heads off. Save the rhetoric, save the excuses, save the reasoning. It is as plain as the nose on everyone's faces we have been and continue to be fleeced. We need a big wall, a lot of blindfolds, and a bunch of bullets. 75% profit all the while crying shortages, RECORD profit... it's disgusting. I don't begrudge anyone a profit, but if you get it this way it's flat out criminal. too bad Georgy boy won't let any of his buddies ever answer for any of this.. meanwhile we keep paying thru the nose. Our cost of living increases, our ethical standards go down. Nice job, G.O.P. Some of you sit in here and applaud this, then complain for example about illegal immigrants exploiting American workers and harming their standard of living... tell me the difference? Nah,, nevermind. Don't bother. I doubt i could stomach it. ~Bang TY Bang - :applause: Just makes me puke thinking about both the fAt cats and the dolts bending over to pick up the coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 The point?That a free market company made record profits in a free market? shocking. Nice personal swipe though bang. I dont expect that kind of thing from you. 'Free' is an interesting choice of words Kilmer. After you get done counting your money, take a minute and reflect on the 'free' market of OIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 You know, if you don't want to pay for gas you could change your behavior. Move close to where you work and purchase a bike, or live somewhere where you are unaffected by soaring energy prices. Of course these decisions were made before the price of gas soared. If you read any books on economic policy and the free market, the cost of oil is run by OPEC a cartel and not dictacted by gas companies. Perhaps our Saudi "friends" are the ones marking up the prices. It's not exactly a free market because of this cartel. Government intervention/regulation is normally the WORST THING that can happen to consumers. The bottom line is that consumers bought the product at the price it was offered for. Yes, it would be nice to have alternative energy... but shouldn't the market dictate that? Interesting, this article didn't say Saudi's recorded 10 B profit, I think it said Exxon. Nice try at a cop out. How much could it have knocked off price per gallon in the last 3 mos. if they only wanted a 5 B profit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 I've been watching the oil and gas markets closely now for the last nine months or so, following my investments -- and I've got to say that I'm stunned by the ignorance I'm seeing in this thread. Half of the posts are blaming the oil companies for engineering higher prices, and the other half are blaming environmentalists for not allowing wholesale destruction of the ecosystem. I probably shouldn't be too surprised, since the mainstream media and the politicians are broken into the same groups, and pointing the same fingers at each other. But it's just flat WRONG. Energy prices have been rising for the last year or so, as both the Chinese and Indian economies are exploding, as are their energy demands. Since there's only so much oil production in the world, when demand increases and supply either decreases or remains the same, prices go up. It's not about hurricanes or conspiracies or environmental laws. If you get nothing else from my post, please understand this simple truth. There is only so much oil and gas in the world, and the more we use, the less there is -- and we've already found and pumped the oil and gas that was easy to find and cheap to get. Even if there is NO increase in demand from all sources, the amount of available oil is going down and will be more expensive to get. New exploration and drilling, for the most part, barely keeps up with our existing usage -- in effect, we're spending more money to keep from falling behind. Are there things that we as a nation could have done, or could do, to decrease our own energy demands? Absolutely, but not enough to offset the growing demand in other countries. Could we have done things to increase our own energy production? Probably, but in a free market economy, private investors need a return on their investment in order to assume the risks of that investment. Why should anyone invest a couple of billion dollars when the two alternatives are (1) lose money because it was a bad investment or (2) make no money because of a windfall profit tax that declares your profits to be "excessive"? If you want to decouple oil exploration from profits, there's only one way to do it, namely, to make the federal government in charge of the entire process. After all, they've done such a wonderful job with Social Security. Thanks for the rudimentary lesson in economics. However, that cop out explains NOTHING about one companies 10 B profit. After all, that is the theme of the article. Let's not distract the masses from the main point with other unrelated facts-k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbblakemore Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Thanks for the rudimentary lesson in economics. However, that cop out explains NOTHING about one companies 10 B profit.After all, that is the theme of the article. Let's not distract the masses from the main point with other unrelated facts-k? Actually, the "unrelated facts" ARE the main point ... Two years ago, it was us, Europe and Japan that were the primary users of oil. This year, China and India (with a combined population of 2+ billion people) are also bidding for the same commodity. More demand, same supply ... prices go up. The oil companies don't determine the price, they just pump the oil and sell it. If they're making a lot of money, it's because there are so many people bidding for the same resource. And yes, it IS rudimentary economics ... sorry you don't think that's relevant to prices and profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Actually, the "unrelated facts" ARE the main point ...Two years ago, it was us, Europe and Japan that were the primary users of oil. This year, China and India (with a combined population of 2+ billion people) are also bidding for the same commodity. More demand, same supply ... prices go up. The oil companies don't determine the price, they just pump the oil and sell it. If they're making a lot of money, it's because there are so many people bidding for the same resource. And yes, it IS rudimentary economics ... sorry you don't think that's relevant to prices and profits. Well then please explain these high oil prices when just a couple of months ago,OPEC was quoted as saying there are NO shortages in supply and that in fact, they were meeting demand and pumping surplus to try and drive the price down. Yet it STILL goes up. Somebody's lying somewhere and John Q Public is paying for it. The fact that they used two disasters(Katrina and Rita) to line their pockets is an absolute outrage. Bang, you nailed the point my friend......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbblakemore Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Well then please explain these high oil prices when just a couple of months ago,OPEC was quoted as saying there are NO shortages in supply and that in fact, they were meeting demand and pumping surplus to try and drive the price down. Yet it STILL goes up. Somebody's lying somewhere and John Q Public is paying for it. The fact that they used two disasters(Katrina and Rita) to line their pockets is an absolute outrage. Bang, you nailed the point my friend......... Easily ... just answer me three questions. Is there a shortage of houses in the United States? And, if there isn't a shortage, why have real estate prices gone up so much in the last two years? And who's lying about THAT such that John Q. Public is paying so much more for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 On a side note - I wonder if all the companies continue to report record profits - if we will see any investigations re: collusion/price fixing.Not suggesting that's what is happening...but...if there is smoke... Yes, Dutch Petrolium and Shell just did as well. Do you really think they are NOT colluding? I mean this is the same group of guys that were running Enron, come on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Is there a shortage of houses in the United States? And, if there isn't a shortage, why have real estate prices gone up so much in the last two years? And who's lying about THAT such that John Q. Public is paying so much more for it? Yes, there is a shortage of houses, and prices have gon up so much because of real estate investors. Approximately 25% of all home sales go to speculators, who do nothing except for drive up the price. They are about to take a bath though, as the market is due for a big crash. Just wait until after this winter with the price of home heating, coupled with the continuation of intrest rates rising, inflation out pacing salary growth. All signs of a bust in the market about to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Is there a shortage of houses in the United States? And, if there isn't a shortage, why have real estate prices gone up so much in the last two years? And who's lying about THAT such that John Q. Public is paying so much more for it? Good point, I'm more concerned with the price of housing than oil. Even though I do own stock in Exxon it's true, gas prices suck for me too. But, it is a supply and demand issue, everyone is still paying for gas right? Raise your hand if you bought a hybrid, raise your hand if you started to carpool to work, raise your hand if you started to take the bus, raise your hand if you moved closer to your work... A couple days ago oil prices dropped because people did change their habits, and the demand had dropped. I've started carpooling to work, and I plan on moving closer to my job within the next couple of years (although not enough to bike to work). It sucks that alternative fuels haven't gotten the investment they need... maybe if we had some government labs work on it, and then give it to some corporations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbblakemore Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Yes, there is a shortage of houses, and prices have gon up so much because of real estate investors. Approximately 25% of all home sales go to speculators, who do nothing except for drive up the price. They are about to take a bath though, as the market is due for a big crash. Just wait until after this winter with the price of home heating, coupled with the continuation of intrest rates rising, inflation out pacing salary growth. All signs of a bust in the market about to happen. Actually, there isn't a shortage of houses, technically -- there's been an average of at least two months' worth of housing inventory throughout the entire price rise. Other than that, I don't disagree with your assessment of the real estate market. As prices AND interest rates go up, fewer people can afford to buy or even own homes, so demand will be down (and probably supplies will be up). I also don't disagree that there are a lot of speculators in both the real estate and energy markets. What I DO (emphatically) disagree with is the idea that market fluctuations (and speculative air pockets) are somehow Conspiracies By Evil Companies, just because they sell at inflated prices which were inflated by others. What's going on here is free-market capitalism, with all its flaws and excesses -- if anyone has a better economic model to use (other than "nationalizing" profits whenever it's politically expedient), I hope they'll drop a note in the suggestion box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Actually, the "unrelated facts" ARE the main point ...Two years ago, it was us, Europe and Japan that were the primary users of oil. This year, China and India (with a combined population of 2+ billion people) are also bidding for the same commodity. More demand, same supply ... prices go up. The oil companies don't determine the price, they just pump the oil and sell it. If they're making a lot of money, it's because there are so many people bidding for the same resource. And yes, it IS rudimentary economics ... sorry you don't think that's relevant to prices and profits. So, the spin on this is China and India. Because, to a thinking person that would be rationale (not to mention practically unproveable in this age of book cooking) But for the masses, and what's mentioned in THIS article, it seems to be skewed to Katrina and Rita. Either way, it's corruption. Now, I'm American and I appreciate a hard working indiviual deserves reward and rights to pursue them. But, as you also quoted earlier, if someone invests 2 B shouldn't they expect to get something in return. GET SOMETHING!?!?!!?!?! A 10 B in 3 mos!!!! I think that exceeds any worries of invest. Alrite enough wih the overkill. Let's just keep it real, that gauged the world and stuffed their pockets. And little dolts who invested pennies are their pawns to keep things quelled in the masses. Keep bending over to pick up them pennies. You're selling out the world. This Oil gauge comes with a price. If your not wise enough to see their grabbing everything they can with both hands now, well God bless you. Because I don't think their worrying about anyone else's tomorrow but their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 And I would say there is a shortage of houses in desireable living areas. Maybe not in Okefoke, Oklahoma. So, look at population figures and map out nice places to live. A simple outlook, but pretty easy algorithym. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Actually, there isn't a shortage of houses, technically -- there's been an average of at least two months' worth of housing inventory throughout the entire price rise. Other than that, I don't disagree with your assessment of the real estate market. As prices AND interest rates go up, fewer people can afford to buy or even own homes, so demand will be down (and probably supplies will be up). In the North East, and in the Boston area, there was a housing shortage for a few years. Only in the past year has it decreased, as have prices. I can't attest to the NOVA area, but when I lived down there there definately was. Look at all of the new homes being built, that will give you a good answer. I also don't disagree that there are a lot of speculators in both the real estate and energy markets. What I DO (emphatically) disagree with is the idea that market fluctuations (and speculative air pockets) are somehow Conspiracies By Evil Companies, just because they sell at inflated prices which were inflated by others. What's going on here is free-market capitalism, with all its flaws and excesses -- if anyone has a better economic model to use (other than "nationalizing" profits whenever it's politically expedient), I hope they'll drop a note in the suggestion box. I'm sorry, but were you saying it was "free-market capitolism" when ENRON was bilking the state of California out of billions of dollars, and causing brown outs everywhere? Can you not see the parallel between the oil market, the companies in charge and ENRON? It is the same group of people for christ sakes. They did it before, why would I think they would not do it again? If it was just "free-market capitolism" there would be oil companies undercutting the competition and selling it cheaper to gain the lions share of the business, this is not happening. In fact, the oil market is not a free-market system and oil companies can essentially sell it for what they want, as long as others follow suit. This is a textbook case of collusion, and when you have a government that will NOT investegate, why would you NOT do so? If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck, I'm not going to call it a chicken, I'm going to call it a duck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddogCT Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Next year, when profits are down to 7.6 billion, Exxon will lay people off. :logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Just to add more insult to injury. . . ConocoPhillips 3Q Profit Soars 89 Percent http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_bi_ge/earns_conocophillips;_ylt=AsBp8DSZcrOHFR2GrTxwKlus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bGI2aDNqBHNlYwM3NDk- And I'm NOT supposed to think there is collusion :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Chom- not even worth researching the evidence. People either are gonna get it, stick their heads in the ground or count their chump change while defending this racket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted October 28, 2005 Author Share Posted October 28, 2005 Holy cow, Chom -- I totally and completely agree with you on this This all stinks, as my mother would say, "to high heaven"; large corporations do NOT post these sort of quarterly profits unless something is seriously wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Chom- not even worth researching the evidence. People either are gonna get it, stick their heads in the ground or count their chump change while defending this racket. It's just frustrating as hell, especially when you know elderly people on a fixed income who will have absolutely no money this year due to heat costs. I am all for making a profit and I am pro business, but this is so far to the extreme it is sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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