Why are we racist if we....

[iheartskins]

DjTj, that's precisely my point, though stated far more succintly.

[Bonez3]

Dj-

You're right. But to be so ignorant as to say race doesn't have a biological foundation is assinine. And, basically that is where most of this led.

Things are clumped for the sake of argument. That does not excuse clouding definitions of race. Plus, I don't know if Jamacains and Puerto Ricans are closer genetically than that of Ethiopians. I don't know, but I would venture my guess is the other way around. And here is where ethnicity plays a bigger role. Their cultures are definetely more closely linked. But otherwise, I understand and agree 'races' are grouped for prejudicial purposes.

As for you Heart- I think you want me to find that some white guys defined certain terms, etc. Dude- grow up and get real. This is not one big conspiracy- it is scientific and I believe you will find that out for yourself if YOU answer your own questions.

And please refrain from copying a definition- I couldn't care less.

[Crazyhorse1]

You disagree with what part? And will you at least recognize the difference between race and ethnicity and that race DOES exist.

To get a definition of an adjective, or verb or some nouns- yes the OED is choice #1. But, some words imply more concepts about them, therefore require a little extra investigation. Either way, it seems like you will find a definition for race and my abbreviated version should jive with that. I'm sorry if that shatters some of your beliefs.

The dictionary defines ghost. Would you offer me that definition to prove that ghosts exist?

You are currently imagining that others do not understand the difference between race and ethnicity. Everyone understands the difference. Relax.

You are missing the philosophical/scientific point of my post.

What you are calling race genomes are actually evolved attributes of peoples of like geographical history. To choose to classify human beings by noting those attributes is a construct. It has no scientific purpose or reason behind it. The reason for choosing the particular classification criteria inevitably exists only in the mind(s) of the observor(s).

The observor could have chosen to make up race distinctions by focusing on other evolved characteristics. He could have created, for instance, the Aryan race, putting into that racial group those with: blond hair, blue eyes, fearlessness, heroism, discipline, highter intelligence, etc.

He could have also created a race called Jews with so-called racial characteristic you already know.

He could also decide that fast people are of one race and slow people are of another.

If you want an recent example of the myth of race causing the murder of a million people, take a look at the recent genocide in Rawanda. Two groups of black people of identical heritage killing each other because their old occupiers, the Dutch, convinced them they were of two different races in order to control them.

At least a 100 million people died in World War 11 because a group of lunatics imagined they belonged to a scientifically established race. That science was nonsense.

All scientific attempts since that time that have tried to prove the scientific basis of race and been hooted from the halls of Science. Two years ago, Newsweek devoted much of an issue to an attempt to explain to the American people why science no longer accepted race as fact.

In other words, the concept of race is a non-scientific construct no longer accepted as empirically meaningful by the scientific community. And that non-acceptance is anything but a secret.

[Bonez3]

The dictionary defines ghost. Would you offer me that definition to prove that ghosts exist?

You are currently imagining that others do not understand the difference between race and ethnicity. Everyone understands the difference. Relax.

You are missing the philosophical/scientific point of my post.

What you are calling race genomes are actually evolved attributes of peoples of like geographical history. To choose to classify human beings by noting those attributes is a construct. It has no scientific purpose or reason behind it. The reason for choosing the particular classification criteria inevitably exists only in the mind(s) of the observor(s).

The observor could have chosen to make up race distinctions by focusing on other evolved characteristics. He could have created, for instance, the Aryan race, putting into that racial group those with: blond hair, blue eyes, fearlessness, heroism, discipline, highter intelligence, etc.

He could have also created a race called Jews with so-called racial characteristic you already know.

He could also decide that fast people are of one race and slow people are of another.

If you want an recent example of the myth of race causing the murder of a million people, take a look at the recent genocide in Rawanda. Two groups of black people of identical heritage killing each other because their old occupiers, the Dutch, convinced them they were of two different races in order to control them.

At least a 100 million people died in World War 11 because a group of lunatics imagined they belonged to a scientifically established race. That science was nonsense.

All scientific attempts since that time that have tried to prove the scientific basis of race and been hooted from the halls of Science. Two years ago, Newsweek devoted much of an issue to an attempt to explain to the American people why science no longer accepted race as fact.

In other words, the concept of race is a non-scientific construct no longer accepted as empirically meaningful by the scientific community. And that non-acceptance is anything but a secret.

Right, so you're saying race exists. Well, that is a 180 degree turn from your original post, but I see you further clarified. This could have saved alot of discussion.

So, it exists and some choose to capitalize on it and some wish to ignore it. Well, unfortunately it is indeed a scientific construct and more influential in the scientific world as ever, i.e. the medication Bidil for African Americans only. If the science world ignored race than the number 1 killer of blacks would be going on today as ruthless as ever. Sorry man, science is more genetic than ever.

Unfortunately, the ills of the world attributed to racial differences are less scientific. The slaughters in Rwanda are pseudo-science claims- and terribly unfortunate. Yes, racial constructs can do harm, great harm. But they exist and cannot be ignored.

The world is not perfect. But, to suggest that race's primary use is by war mongers and elitists to opprese is inaccurate. It happends and has happened, but we need to recognize at least it is there race and it is fact- contrary to many 'credible' magazines.

[Bonez3]

Oh yea- and I'm not the dictionary man- so I don't acknowledge your intro. Take it up with Heart.

[iheartskins]

As for you Heart- I think you want me to find that some white guys defined certain terms, etc. Dude- grow up and get real. This is not one big conspiracy- it is scientific and I believe you will find that out for yourself if YOU answer your own questions.

And please refrain from copying a definition- I couldn't care less.

You seem incapable of doing anything other than missing the point with me, with Destino and now with Crazyhorse. Perhaps that's intentional.

In any case, try to move beyond your myopic scope and actually listen and comprehend what other poeple have to say. It's a leap of faith, but one you'll find instructive and enlightening; further, it makes conversation far more interesting and far less combative.

[Bonez3]

Wow Heart, another powerful post.

Piggy back off the 2 individuals who I've debated against and try to spin as if I'm incapable of abstract thought.

But, the kicker of the post is that I've actually seen and recognized rationale with Crazy and respect Destino. Now, with you, I felt that post after post you were corrected and when it came to a crucible, you relied on others opinion. I truly empathize with you on this topic. I hope I informed you with a little more knowledge than you had previously and ask you do indeed research more.

People don't have to become influenced in debates, that is the point. I respect most peoples points presented here, and as you can see, I disagree with SOME- and that is CERTAINLY not intentional. You on the other hand, I feel you do need more influencing by some source, I'm afraid you are relying on unresearched, self-conceived notions.

[Bonez3]

You seem incapable of doing anything other than missing the point with me, with Destino and now with Crazyhorse. Perhaps that's intentional.

In any case, try to move beyond your myopic scope and actually listen and comprehend what other poeple have to say. It's a leap of faith, but one you'll find instructive and enlightening; further, it makes conversation far more interesting and far less combative.

You mean myopic like... "I completely disagree with you" (iheartskins, about 30 mins. ago)- that being the entire argument.

And enlightening like a dictionary? :laugh:

[iheartskins]

Well at least your were finally able to get my name right.

[Bonez3]

I felt like I owed you that much

[PokerPacker]

I've hit an impasse, but alas there is hope.

There is more than hope!

Americans far and near, lend me your ears. A cue has surfaced in my thoughts, my neurological centers have blessed me. I propose, with enormous pleasure, the participants in this thread form a political faction in the United States of America government.

I beg you keep your acclamation of me to a minimum. A doctrine this endowed does indeed deserve such applaud. Yet, I refrain from this recognition.

The great minds of myself, Destino, I heart Skins, Chometrics, DjTj, whoever started this thread & Ferguson shall lead the revolution (sorry poker packer, America has rules and your to young).

Tomorrow is a new day. Tomorrow is a new day. Let's make the rainbow illuminate the whole world :) !

ok bonez, i may not be able to fight in the revolution, but i think i've come up with our symbol: we are a (reverse) prism, uniting the colors into a singular white light.

[Bonez3]

ok bonez, i may not be able to fight in the revolution, but i think i've come up with our symbol: we are a (reverse) prism, uniting the colors into a singular white light.

The coalition is BACK!

And PokerPacker my friend, you are gonna be a part- your gonna be the brains behind the scene. You're starting to show some promise now. :applause:

[PokerPacker]

The coalition is BACK!

And PokerPacker my friend, you are gonna be a part- your gonna be the brains behind the scene. You're starting to show some promise now. :applause:

i'll be your east-coast recruiter.

[Burger35]

DjTj I agree with that point.

[ironmic]

some of you guys will never get it so i wont even bother...u need to look in the mirror and then look at history and society....WORDS FROM AN AMERICAN who happens to to be BLACK..

[Bonez3]

some of you guys will never get it so i wont even bother...u need to look in the mirror and then look at history and society....WORDS FROM AN AMERICAN who happens to to be BLACK..

What about the future, why neglect that?

[scskin]

What about the future, why neglect that?

Without a past you have no present. Without a present you have no future. They are connected. We may never know when we got Cancer, it really doesn't matter when we got it. If you don't do something about it it's over. To look at your present condition and say "Well, that happened a long time ago", would be disingenuous and fatalistic. Everyone suffers when the scales are unbalanced. Don't get me wrong, they will never be balanced, but we can do better. With all this said, if you neglect your past you have already neglected your future. I would never ask a victim of the Holocaust or WWII internment camps to forget it and move on. I guess the difference is that those incidents happened in the 20th century. A direct affect is much easier to assess than an indirect one. All I can do is continue to educate my child and live on the right side of the law. Dr King became a threat when he proposed a poor peoples march. THAT would have encompassed all types of people. I wonder what the Gov't was afraid of?

[Bonez3]

I totally agree

[scskin]

I think it's time to close this thread and get to work.

[CrazyJoe92]

Right, meritocracy and finacial aid...

I didn't want to bring this up, but... If a white student and a black student had similar great resumes for a boarding school, but the white student simply edged him in all categories by a marginal amount, than there is the problem of reverse discrimination.

The black student will get advantages in most cases b/c there may be a curve adjusting for the 'inadequate educational setting' i.e Abbott school districts in NJ. So, if a boarding school director is feeling perticularly massochistic, he will accept the black student so he doesn't get labeled as racist...no?

I think he does and I think this bothers most people. The more qualified white student gets shunned here because his current poverty isn't enough to match the blacks history of poverty.

This is a hypothetical, but please recognize it exists and is not fair. Thus, placing lower socioeconomic whites at a greater disadvantage.

There is more to it than that. this will happen because minorities at one point could not go to school because of their color and still today racism still exists especially if there is a older person that’s making the decision because they did live in that time when all this was going on and they could still feel the same way. They basically have lost the privilege of making the decision with out any rules or guidelines because this “Power” Was used the wrong way. It’s like when a person is put in jail for child abuse or some type of sex offence and then set free, he/she may be free from jail but it will always be on their record.

this is in the work force everyday not only to minorities but the women too, and college is just like having a job if you think about it

[CrazyJoe92]

Someone once asked me "Why do we have Black History Month. What about white history month?" My reply was "That's the other 11 months of the year".

But you raise an interesting topic, even if the delivery wasn't exactly clear.

During a series of interviews (I think it was on ESPN), a number of black athletes were asked if they thought that, in general, black athletes had physically superior attributes to white athletes. I seem to remember that this was around the time that Jason Sehorn was noted as the only starting cornerback in the NFL who was white.

And many of the black athletes said yes, we do think we are superior. And while it might not be PC to say so, the numbers bear it out.

It occurred to me that there was no media-wide call to make these athletes apologize for saying what they said. As we all know, if any white person claimed any type of superiority over blacks in principle, there would be a monstrous uproar. Hell, if a white person, athlete or otherwise, said that he though blacks were better athletes (see Jimmy the Greek), he has to apologize publicly, and probably gets fired. Seems silly on the outset but there's a reason for that, much of which was touched on by iheart.

And the reason is: black people have been given the royal shaft by white people in this country for hundreds of years. If you don't think so then you are either indescribably ignorant, or so consumed with hate and fear that you can't see reality.

Slavery, Jim Crow laws, economic separation, segregation...all these things, and many more, were designed to keep people of color at a disadvantage. And while today's era is a racial renaissance compared to years past, these disadvantages are still quite prevalent because they are inexorably woven into the fabric of society. If you don't think so then you aren't paying attention.

So since black people have not been allowed to play the white man's reindeer games, they had to create their own TV stations, their own colleges, their own...everything, really. And it's been 100 times more difficult for them to succeed in doing so, because every deck is stacked against them, and their population base is not as large. There are plenty of fools out there who would love to point to Oprah and all the black musicians and athletes who have made it rich, and to be accurate, the opportunities for blacks in America have never been better. But there are countless legacies that are strictly the domain of the white man, particularly in business, and that doesn't look like it's changing anytime soon.

So black people get free passes to say and do stuff that would get us white folks in trouble, and its ok for them to have their own stuff, because white people never gave them much of anything.

I am not a racist person and I do not judge a person by religion, race, or creed or anything.

But to answer you question

this is because white people didnt have to be slaves for over 400 years. Be killed, tortured, and disfigured all at the same time but not in that order. Black people were not allowed to even talk unless spoken to or asked a question. All these things that you say are free for blacks to do or “get away with” are earned because they could not have anything. A white person can’t say things like being a better athlete because the “N” word was used so much and many other ignorant things that anything close to the meaning of superior or being better than another is racist. A black person is not know for saying something like this to belittle another person but a white person has been and there are many people that still feel the same way. I wish this would have never come to this but that’s the way the cookie crumbled

My god forgive a person that thinks these ignorant thoughts and help them realize that we are all in this together.

[CrazyJoe92]

I feel that if people want to see acts of racism or bigotry, they will find it even if it's not there. I think every culture has been "enslaved" at a time in history and that racism and bigotry come from all different cultures.

I feel that the need for predominately black schools is there. It is good for the black community as would be for the Irish, German, and Spanish. I don't feel however, that saying "it's harder to get a job if you are a minority" is correct. It's not, in fact if you are a minority with a diploma against a caucasian male with a diploma, the majorityof the time the minority will get the position. I know this because I worked as an HR supervisor for a large global bank.

I am not screaming "wo is me" as a caucasian male as I feel it's necessary to have affirmative action because all cultures look at race and looks while looking at credentials. Is it right no but it is reality.

That’s not all true. I work in HR and I see it a lot. I also see that when a minority is hired for a position they do not get paid as much especial a female. Then I see a lot of minorities get fired or they have to quit because of unfairness and no support from there co-workers. They are put in “Low level jobs” I know some one that works for my company right now black lady who is about 48 years old. Knows her position front to back has a degree and has even manage 11- 20 people at a time. She was fired from her last job because they told her she was too strict. How does that sound? There were younger workers that came in to work with no professional work clothes and pregnant people coming in with belly shirts. She told them they cant do that and they need to come to work with something more professional because this would make her and the company look bad as a manager especially when her boss came to the work place every now and then.

She had people that came to work late all the time never did their work and didn’t respect the fact that she was a manager. One of the other managers was hiring all of her friends that did not know how to do their job so she would look out for them and let them take days off.

The other manager would tell the corporate people that she was not doing her job right and she didn’t think she was fit for a job the other manager had the nerve to check her emails when she was not their. Meanwhile the lady was managing 15 people when she was told she was only going to manage 9 and the company told her they could not compensate her for the extra work load even when she was getting paid less than she was supposed to make.

Later she was laid off and they put a girl that she had to cross train in her position who had no degree and didn’t know how to do the work required (What a slap in the face) They also fired about 5 other black ppl from the company. the company is under investigation right now because of this. So it does happen everyday and I work for the federal Gov where I get a few hundred resumes and request forms that I have to process.

The crazy thing is that this is not the half of things she told me about.

[CrazyJoe92]

Exactly my point. Your parents did. Which I totally sympathize with the people who've been through it and there is nothing I can say or anyone can say to make what they've been through any better. But for you anything you want you can do. The only thing that will hold you back is your work ethic. What I mean by that is how bad do you want to achieve your goals. Your skin color is not holding you back.

I hope you’re not trying to say that there is no racism in the work force? Or better yet any at all.

you can go to any news site and type it in a search and you will get something about it.

[CrazyJoe92]

I don't like the "you can't ignore history" argument. Why should I be punished for something that other people did 40 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 200 years ago? Isn't that kind've like punishing someone for the color of their skin? I have no control that my parents/grandparents may have received an unfair benefit because of their skin color 40 years ago.

Things started to change 20 years ago right? How long do we have to wait for those changes to propogate through whatever generations?

So in 15 years will someone tell my children... "Well since oppurtunities for minorities were poor 50, 60, 70 years ago we're going to make it fair by giving them advantages now..."?

well to this day black people still have to deal with hate crimes, and discrimination. After the 400+ years of slavery being tortured treated like live stock. Whatever this “price you are paying” is a small price to pay. I don’t what a white person has to pay for. If you they think they are paying a “black tax” to compensate for the mistreatment then the gov owes a lot of black people money because they pay the same amount of tax money than a white person if you set-aside the fact that upper class person gets better tax cuts but im not going to become a politician.

Everyone will have to wait for something like this to end and it will not end until the racism ends

And people start teaching their kinds the right way and that color does not matter

[CrazyJoe92]

I shouldn't say punished... penalized...but affirmative action is just reverse discrimination. Colleges still use affirmative action, so therefore it could be possible that I was denied entry into a college because my application was compared to others on the basis of race. I did get rejected by 3 colleges and wait listed to a 4th. I had a backup plan that worked out well... and I'm not saying race is the sole factor, but it could have been a factor. I know that some jobs use race/sex as a factor when they decide on employment as well.

The difference is that you don’t know if you got denied or if affirmative action played a part. For all you know it could have been something as simple as not crossing a “T” or dotting your “I’s”

But history tells you than when black people could not go to school it was because they were black. When a black person could not use a bathroom it was because they are black. You have a 99.9% chance of getting in to school. A black person had -99.9% of getting in to a school. right now there is still schools that have people on the committee that try to minimize black students. This is why its optional to put your race on your application. But why should someone have to hide their race to get in to school when we have so many people who think racism is no more? Its still there and its probably going to be here for a longtime. A black person has an ancuse to feel this way because its been around for hundreds of years. Just now its behind closed doors where the “avg Joe” cant really tell.