Why are we racist if we....

[DjTj]

i'm not asking for help, i'm asking for people to quit whining about how bad they have it. i'm for employing those most fit for a job, i'm against hiring to fit quotas. not all africans in our country have enslaved ancestors, not all whites have slave-owning ancestors. people need to learn how to make money for themselves.

Do you actually think that Blacks aren't making money for themselves? That they are all sailing through life? Maybe 5% of the Black population is making 5% more money because of affirmative action ... if it were really making such a huge difference, the poverty statistics wouldn't be what they are today.

i'm not trying to be racist with my next comment, it is purly an observation: at my school, there is a high proportion of black kids who just don't give a f*ck about getting an education. yes, there are smart black kids, but they are greatly outweighed by the number of "gangta's" in the school. if they can't get their act together, do they deserve a decent job over someone who actually tried? (FCPS is one of the better schooling systems in the country, so don't blame it on the school)

Guess what, those kids are going to grow up to be poor! They're going to work at McDonald's! They are not going to get hired over anybody decent ... how many times have you seen someone walk into a job interview with baggy pants and a backwards cap and get a job ... these kids are going to suffer the same fate as lazy white kids ... talk to me in 10 years and tell me how many of these kids end up wealthy ...

why is it that asians that come to this country with little or no money, and end up being so successful? because they work hard. they aren't out looking for handouts, they get an education, and make money.

Not every Asian comes here and ends up rich, just like not every Black person benefits from affirmative action, not every Black person is lazy, and not every White person is suffering at the hands of a racist system. There are poor Asians and there are rich Asians ... most of the wealthier Asians came to America after receiving very good educations in Asian countries. It is often the best of the best that are able to cross the Pacific Ocean, so you would expect them to do well.

Yeah... just look at how we treated all those Japanese Americans during WWII... they were put into internment camps. And if you see this chart on incomes by races, you'll see that because of this unfair treatment and racism by the United States government, people of Japanese descent in this country have a lower income now.

Wait, what's that you say? There are no charts that show Americans of Japanese descent have been hurt by their internment 60 years ago? But.. by the logic of this thread, I would expect a traceable adverse effect of poverty passed down from generation to generation.

Interesting, went diving through the archives and I found this article and thread.

The descendants of interened Japanese-Americans were awarded $20,000 in reparations, totaling $1.2 billion dollars. This was authorized in the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which was signed by Ronald Reagan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment#Compensation_and_reparations

Should the descendants of slaves also receive such a payment?

[Bonez3]

I've hit an impasse, but alas there is hope.

There is more than hope!

Americans far and near, lend me your ears. A cue has surfaced in my thoughts, my neurological centers have blessed me. I propose, with enormous pleasure, the participants in this thread form a political faction in the United States of America government.

I beg you keep your acclamation of me to a minimum. A doctrine this endowed does indeed deserve such applaud. Yet, I refrain from this recognition.

The great minds of myself, Destino, I heart Skins, Chometrics, DjTj, whoever started this thread & Ferguson shall lead the revolution (sorry poker packer, America has rules and your to young).

Tomorrow is a new day. Tomorrow is a new day. Let's make the rainbow illuminate the whole world :) !

[Bonez3]

A similar thing happened to me with the Nation of Islam, they didn't want any part of me. Can I help it if I'm a white guy who happens to like bean pies?

Ball Coach,

Join my coalition. We allow all colors, races, mutants eat bean pies whenever they want.

[scskin]

I've hit an impasse, but alas there is hope.

There is more than hope!

Americans far and near, lend me your ears. A cue has surfaced in my thoughts, my neurological centers have blessed me. I propose, with enormous pleasure, the participants in this thread form a political faction in the United States of America government.

I beg you keep your acclamation of me to a minimum. A doctrine this endowed does indeed deserve such applaud. Yet, I refrain from this recognition.

The great minds of myself, Destino, I heart Skins, Chometrics, DjTj, whoever started this thread & Ferguson shall lead the revolution (sorry poker packer, America has rules and your to young).

Tomorrow is a new day. Tomorrow is a new day. Let's make the rainbow illuminate the whole world :) !

Let the RAINBOW illuminate the world? I wonder if

[iheartskins]

:doh:

race1 Audio pronunciation of "race" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rs)

n.

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

4. Humans considered as a group.

5. Biology.

1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.

2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

Notice, crazyhorse, definition number 5. There is indeed a biological definition of race. To say there is no such thing as races is complete, utter and total lunacy. :doh:

Ok, jrock, that there's a definition for something or that you can find some reasonably credible reference to it doesn't indicate that the concept itself is not a construct. I tend to agree with Crazyhorse1 on that issue. I don't know what dictionary you were citing, but through numerous schools and writings that I was either forced or compelled to read, I've come to the same conclusion as he has: that "race" in the way we use it, is a construct to separate.

Here's the definition of race from the OED, and bear with me because I'm typing each line myself because I don't have access to the online version. Ok, scratch that, the book definition has 5 full pages of text on this issue.

To sum up: The term was originally used in the 16th century but only in reference to "the human race or the race of man." "Race," in the way it is used currently, only started carrying that meaning as of the late 19th century--and the citations are largely Anglo and American and refer basically to blacks and Africans. I think that's pretty telling of how much of a construct the current "race" concept is.

[prophet]

racism will always be here... its in every country on the planet. People will always hate other people its life.

I have no problem with anyone's skin color. I do have problems with people's attitudes of any race.

It seems that Black people seem to be more rasicst now than back then, and Whites have become more open. That does not exempt the fact that there are whites that are still rasicst as well.

I think that anyone that carries them self with class, and is qualified has as good of chance as any to get any job, or anything else they want to pursue.

There will always be exceptions on either side.

If bubba redneck goes into IBM with overall's and a john dear hat he is not going to get the job. Likewise, if tupac wannabe goes in there with his pants waist line around his ankles... he is not going to get the job.

What I can't stand is one race acting like only the other race is racists.

A few questions to ponder....

1. Why are things predominately geared to the white in America?

2. Why is whitey ok for a black person to use in public, but if whitey called a black person blacky there would be a fight?

4. why isn't the the black panthers considered just as bad as the KKK?

racism stinks!

[Bonez3]

Let the RAINBOW illuminate the world? I wonder if

Nope SCSkin, unfortunately for your devious little mind I was trying to imply we unite the colors. Unfortunately, another 'group' adopts the same symbol. But, I don't care.

[Bonez3]

Ok, jrock, that there's a definition for something or that you can find some reasonably credible reference to it doesn't indicate that the concept itself is not a construct. I tend to agree with Crazyhorse1 on that issue. I don't know what dictionary you were citing, but through numerous schools and writings that I was either forced or compelled to read, I've come to the same conclusion as he has: that "race" in the way we use it, is a construct to separate.

Here's the definition of race from the OED, and bear with me because I'm typing each line myself because I don't have access to the online version. Ok, scratch that, the book definition has 5 full pages of text on this issue.

To sum up: The term was originally used in the 16th century but only in reference to "the human race or the race of man." "Race," in the way it is used currently, only started carrying that meaning as of the late 19th century--and the citations are largely Anglo and American and refer basically to blacks and Africans. I think that's pretty telling of how much of a construct the current "race" concept is.

My good word, I hope you didn't take sociology at your schools, because the professor should be fired.

Race and ethnicity, now for the second time writting this, have distinct sociological definitions. PLEASE, read more and research. One's race are shared GENETIC traits that belong to a certain population. Ethnicity on the other hand are shared cultural traits. I could have African ethnicity and be white. But, my genome is unlikely to allow me to develop sickle cell or be immune to malria or countless other things that certain RACES possess with their SPECIFIC GENOME.

And, as I'm sure you know, genes wern't even a thought in the 16th century. Just because we didn't know how to properly classify race than, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Ethnicity is a social construct, race is not

THAT'S IT, COALITION IS CANCELLED. PLEASE DON'T INQUIRE. I'M FRUSTRATED AGAIN>

And please don't source the dictionary for definitions.

[scskin]

Nope SCSkin, unfortunately for your devious little mind I was trying to imply we unite the colors. Unfortunately, another 'group' adopts the same symbol. But, I don't care.

Lighten up dude. Did I say lighten up? I kill me!!!!!

[Bonez3]

Lighten up dude. Did I say lighten up? I kill me!!!!!

I'm sure that YOU and I both know- not that there's anything wrong with that if I was...right? (Let's not make this a gay thread, the joke ends here. I don't care if you do think it's wrong)

[scskin]

Never mind

[Burger35]

DjTj

The Irish are a horrible example to use. When the influx of Irish entered from NYC it was known that they were treated worse than the African American slaves. It was only till they moved out west and started getting into politics (Sheriffs, Mayor, and even Governer) Did the outlook change. They were used by Gangs, By the government as Cheap labor (and by cheap I mean unlivable), and during the Civil War any Irish Immigrant coming over was forced to be drafted before any other race or culture. This is what started the riots of 1862. It took years after english slavery for the Irish to get respect in America.

I am not saying by any means that they were treated worse than blacks. I am saying that the Irish were treated worse than most other nationality's. You have to understand that before there was African slaves to the English, there was the Irish and Scots.

I have had the privelege of being raised by an African American man. My Father and Mother lived in Ireland. They moved to Nyc in 1973. My mother remarried when my father passed away. She fell in love with an African American. He was a great role model and living with him is why I understood the need for programs like Affirmative Action, however never, not once, did he ever use his race as a scapegoat for failure.

[Bonez3]

Never mind

Doesn't matter now anyway. It was gonna be funny, but it got ruined and the coalition has been cancelled. Actually, I'm as upset as you.

[scskin]

Doesn't matter now anyway. It was gonna be funny, but it got ruined and the coalition has been cancelled. Actually, I'm as upset as you.

Actually, I was trying to respond to someone else's post and it got all screwed up. I couldn't delete it so i just typed never mind and moved on.

[iheartskins]

My good word, I hope you didn't take sociology at your schools, because the professor should be fired.

Race and ethnicity, now for the second time writting this, have distinct sociological definitions. PLEASE, read more and research. One's race are shared GENETIC traits that belong to a certain population. Ethnicity on the other hand are shared cultural traits. I could have African ethnicity and be white. But, my genome is unlikely to allow me to develop sickle cell or be immune to malria or countless other things that certain RACES possess with their SPECIFIC GENOME.

So then Jews are a race because of Tay-Sachs and Crones?

THAT'S IT, COALITION IS CANCELLED. PLEASE DON'T INQUIRE. I'M FRUSTRATED AGAIN

Take a couple deep breaths.

And please don't source the dictionary for definitions.

You're right, when I want to know the definition of a word, then the conclusive resource of the English language, the Oxford Enlish Dictionary, isn't a good source.

[Bonez3]

Yes, the Ashkanazi Jews in particular are a 'race' (loosesly applied here) because of that trait. But, they would probably want to share more traits in common. Good example. Now, you can see that race isn't necessarily confided to geographic borders, but does indded exist. Tay Sachs mainly affects Jews from a particular region in Europe. Not nearly enough of Crones is understood to know if it's genetic, at this point most believe it ot be idiopathic- of unknown origin.

Deep breathes ain't gonna save the coalition now, too bad.

The dictionary is limited. At best only a very, very preliminary starting point.

[iheartskins]

Yes, the Ashkanazi Jews in particular are a 'race'n(loosesly applied here) because of that trait.nBut, they would probably want to share more traits in common. Good example. Now, you can see that race isn't necessarily confided to geographic borders, but does indded exist. Not nearly enough of Crones is understood to know if it's genetic, at this point most believe it ot be idiopathic- of unknown origin.

Well, then I'm going to have to completely disagree with you.

The dictionary is limited. At best only a very, very preliminary starting point.

To understand the etomology of a word, there is nothing better than the OED. Case closed. To explicate concepts, there are better sources, certainly. But understanding what a word means, how it emerged and was (and is) used in the English lexicon is squarely within the purview of the OED.

[Bonez3]

You disagree with what part? And will you at least recognize the difference between race and ethnicity and that race DOES exist.

To get a definition of an adjective, or verb or some nouns- yes the OED is choice #1. But, some words imply more concepts about them, therefore require a little extra investigation. Either way, it seems like you will find a definition for race and my abbreviated version should jive with that. I'm sorry if that shatters some of your beliefs.

[Redskins Diehard]

The descendants of interened Japanese-Americans were awarded $20,000 in reparations, totaling $1.2 billion dollars. This was authorized in the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which was signed by Ronald Reagan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment#Compensation_and_reparations

Should the descendants of slaves also receive such a payment?

In a word...No.

[iheartskins]

You disagree with what part? And will you at least recognize the difference between race and ethnicity and that race DOES exist.

I never said that race and ethnicity aren't different things. They are. Here's a quick, crude analogy that shows how race is a construct. Race exists in the same way that "class AA" eggs exist, sure there are some differences between the eggs, but they are all still eggs. Humans created a system to classify them much the same way that humans created the concept of "race" to classify people, at for the most part initially to classify blacks, Africans, and Jews (among others) as less than. The differences between the various classes of eggs (as the various differences between people) are there--there are different sizes, colors, shapes, etc. But there is nothing fundamentally different among any of them--they are all the same.

To get a definition of an adjective, or verb or some nouns- yes the OED is choice #1. But, some words imply more concepts about them, therefore require a little extra investigation. Either way, it seems like you will find a definition for race and my abbreviated version should jive with that.

That's the point, and one you missed, in what I wrote above. I conveyed what was in there and what wasn't. I suggest you pick up a copy yourself and read it. Then maybe you'll understand what I'm getting at.

I'm sorry if that shatters some of your beliefs.

:laugh:

[Bonez3]

1) It's news to me that humans created the genome.

2) Outside your sacred dictionary, I would like you to source these 'papers & books' you were compelled to read. Because obviously you missed the point.

3) Hopefully for the last time- RACE HAS A DEFINITIVE SOCIOLOGICAL DEFINITION. It is not a conspiracy to hold back certain people. Specific genetic traits exist in certain individuals and these traits are passed on to future generations, thus they belong to a race.

4)I need no help from you in suggestions on reading materials. And I think you decided in your post not to write what was there because it was to long. I will trust nothing you conveyed from it based on your posts in this thread.

[Bonez3]

I also hope how you realize how ridiculous your eggs analogy is.

[iheartskins]

3) Hopefully for the last time- RACE HAS A DEFINITIVE SOCIOLOGICAL DEFINITION. It is not a conspiracy to hold back certain people. Specific genetic traits exist in certain individuals and these traits are passed on to future generations, thus they belong to a race.

Here's several questions that if you answer honestly, you'll see what I'm saying: Who were the sociologists that created, or discovered as you'd see it, "race"? When did such definition come about?

4)I need no help from you in suggestions on reading materials. And I think you decided in your post not to write what was there because it was to long. .

You're right, it was too long, if you'd like, I'll scan it in at work on Monday and post the PDF on the webpage and you can see for yourself. The type is pretty small, so I make no guarantees as to how readable it will be.

[iheartskins]

no post....

[DjTj]

Let me jump in here ...

First, I think iheart's point is that our current conceptions or race are very much a social construct. There ARE genetic determinants of race, but those determinants are not perfectly correlated with the way we perceive race. For example, Jamaicans and Puerto Ricans are probably closer genetically than Jamaicans and Ethopians. However, we call Jamaicans and Ethiopians "Black," and we call Puerto Ricans "Latino." Mongolians and eastern Russians are probably closer genetically than Mongolians and Sri Lankans. However, we call Mongolians and Sri Lankans "Asian," and we call Russians "White."

The lines that we draw are not based in science, but in society. The reason Asian-Americans are lumped together is because they almost all immigrated to the United States in the past 40 years under laws that encouraged particular skill sets. The reason African-Americans are lumped together is because they almost all were brought to the western hemisphere through slavery. The reason Latinos are lumped together is because they almost all immigrated to the United States in the past 40 years under laws that allowed for family reunification and because they provided a supply of labor.

The racial categorizations we use in this country are intimately tied to our laws and our history ... they are not based purely in genetics. This would become obvious to anyone that travelled to a different country, where you will inevitably find racial groupings very different from those we use in the United States.

In any case, for the larger purposes of this thread, I don't think it matters whether race is a social construct or if it is determined by genetics. All that matters is that there do exist racial categories and that discrimination occurs along those lines.