Why are we racist if we....

[Mooka]

Mooka,

I'm the first generation in my family's history to go to college. Why do you think 40 years ago it was more acceptable for poor white's to go to college. Very few poor white's attended college in that same time period. That's a fact. It's a blanket statement to assume poor whites in the 60's had more oppurtunities. From my parents recount, little to none of there friends, same class, went to college.

My point didn't have to do with economic status. I was comparing a white person and a black person of the same status.

Your family was held back only by economic status and not race. (edit, lol no offense )

[Fergasun]

I shouldn't say punished... penalized...but affirmative action is just reverse discrimination. Colleges still use affirmative action, so therefore it could be possible that I was denied entry into a college because my application was compared to others on the basis of race. I did get rejected by 3 colleges and wait listed to a 4th. I had a backup plan that worked out well... and I'm not saying race is the sole factor, but it could have been a factor. I know that some jobs use race/sex as a factor when they decide on employment as well.

[NavyDave]

Why can't we just have a thread like how come white guys dont have rhythm or how Ben Affleck continues to get work?

[Bonez3]

B/C in the 60's not only was there racism, there was just as much classism.

People weren't programmed to go to college. My parent's and many of their peers were taught to work. That's it, you did what your parents did and it was respectable.

Less people went to college, well no $hit. Do you think for a second there might have been a reason for that and even a societal design similar to racism.

[Bonez3]

My point didn't have to do with economic status. I was comparing a white person and a black person of the same status.

Your family was held back only by economic status and not race. (edit, lol no offense )

So what's the difference, they were equally persecuted.

And so today, you can still be held back by economic status, but advanced b/c of racial status. Not a valid stance.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

All I want to do is dance like a black dude... I'm not asking for much.

[iheartskins]

B/C in the 60's not only was there racism, there was just as much classism.

People weren't programmed to go to college. My parent's and many of their peers were taught to work. That's it, you did what your parents did and it was respectable.

Less people went to college, well no $hit. Do you think for a second there might have been a reason for that and even a societal design similar to racism.

This sounds a little conspiracy theory-esque to me. Fewer people needed college degrees to have street cred in the business world. Many of the top executives of firms didn't have college degrees. Hell, many of the top law firms in New York had partners that didn't even have law degrees. Many of the investment banks, maybe even the one that you worked for, had lots of people that didn't even graduate from high school as their senior executives.

College just wasn't seen as a requirement to enter the work force in the way it is now.

We're getting a little far afield of the initial question.

[iheartskins]

So what's the difference, they were equally persecuted.

And so today, you can still be held back by economic status, but advanced b/c of racial status. Not a valid stance.

Just so we're clear, you're saying that poor whites were just as persecuted as blacks in the United States?

[Redskins Diehard]

I think this is a topic that should be addressed more regularly and openly and thus having discussions such as this is a good thing.

The argument concerning BET is old and tired, I've heard it for years and don't really see what point it proves. CMT targets rednecks, Lifetime targets women, ESPN targets sports fans, and what about the no less than 3 Spanish language channels on my tv now. So BET targets black people, or is it African-American(which CAN NOT be used to describe a fair skinned person of African descent).

It would be nice if the lessons of Black history month could be incorporated into the rest of the year where we learn all the rest of the history. I think it does a disservice to these piece of our history by "segregating" it into its own month. A kind of "pay attention to black history because it February, not because it is important" attitude.

Can a "whitey" apply to a historically black college? I believe so.

Can a "whitey" pledge the Omega Psi Phi fraternity? I doubt it.

Are there white organizations that exclude blacks? Sure, and vice versa.

We better get this stuff all worked out, because the Latinos will be joining the debate soon and then what?

[LiveStrongSkins]

Heres a perspective from a white male that may be a little different. My cousins are mixed, and their grandmother from the fathers side is obviously african-american. She has treated me like a grandson all of my life. It is unreal how many people have laughed in my face when I have introduced my cousin anthony to them.The truth is, because of overall ignorance, this world is still a very racist place. I cant tell you how many things have been said to me by white people passing in cars about walking home with my cousins or being in the car with their grandmother. Many things have also been said to me when I have been the only white person at a place. It's not a reflection on the race as a whole, just certain people within races feel differently on the issue. It also isnt really fair how things get mixed up. BET isnt a TV station discriminating against Whites or any other race. It is a station that highlites black entertainers, but also includes white actors and entertainers as well. As for the "All-black" colleges, iheartskins summed it up perfectly. They are properly referred to as "historically black colleges." Meaning yes, in the past they were set up so that african americans could have the same type of education but as years have passed, things have changed. A caucasion, hispanic, or asian person could get huge scholarship money for going to a place like Howard who by the way has a GREAT reputation. So instead of thinking in those terms of an "all-black" college you should look further into it and see the opportunites for ALL people at a institution like that.

[Destino]

First, the entire subject handles the effects of racism today. Further, if you read all my posts, I think you will find I hold a high respect for history. What seems to be bothering you is that I didn't mention what YOU want to hear. So, I hope you appreciate that.

Yes the subject does handle the effect of racism today. If you'll read my posts you'll see that my stance is that you can not discuss it accurately if you remove it from it's context. It is bothering me that you seem to refuse to acknowledge the role this plays.

So, to make this personal, I implore you to trace the history of the Irish to America. It's rather recent Destino. I myself am fouth generation, both sides. Now, exclusion by the controlling country of Ireland in the 19th century (which was England) allowed for millions to perish and millions more to emmigrate (I would love for you to research). Coincidently enough, they arrived at America in time for a war. A war that they fought in with great representaion according to it's population numbers charted in war records.

I think the Irish culture understands a little about oppression, hatred and fear.

Evils are not all equal. Events of the past that are correctly viewed today as wrong occurred in varying degrees. Some more harsh then others, and without a doubt many with more far reaching and long lasting effects. I disagree with your equating Irish and black experiences. I see the institutionalized racism in the US directed at blacks to be far more severe. Perhaps if we were discussing race relations in Ireland your example would be more relevant. We aren’t.

Also, again you created a self fulfilled prophecy and attached my oponion to it. I never commented on any black institutions or why they were built. I commented on institutional standards and the role of race in them. Particularly, 'white' institutions.

I didn't attach your name to any of that. That is my position.

AND FINALLY, I think there was a white culture in AMERICA that might have been altered by the Nazi's actions. I think those who invaded Europe during WWII have particularly profound recounts of those times and passed on a certain 'opinion' to future generations. I'm sure you are aware Destino, many white Americans did die b/c of the Nazi's.

I don't think you and I are on the same wave length. US history and policy was shaped by every war it ever fought. But never has the US white population found it's very essence the target of prolonged and effectively implimented brutality.

However I like that you brought this up. You acknowledge that a war created a certain bitterness that was passed down. So then isn't it reasonable to say that the far more severe institution of slavery and later racism that ended less then 50 year ago would have created a even larger shift in what was passed down and have an even larger effect in the big picture?

[Leonard Washington]

if BET didn't show black programs then no one else would. and BET is not as B as it used to be, if you ask me. i go :doh: just as much watching their original programming as i do mtv's .

[Bonez3]

This sounds a little conspiracy theory-esque to me. Fewer people needed college degrees to have street cred in the business world. Many of the top executives of firms didn't have college degrees. Hell, many of the top law firms in New York had partners that didn't even have law degrees. Many of the investment banks, maybe even the one that you worked for, had lots of people that didn't even graduate from high school as their senior executives.

College just wasn't seen as a requirement to enter the work force in the way it is now.

We're getting a little far afield of the initial question.

Yeah, your rite, my mother the waitress and my father the bartender didn't need degrees to get their jobs, they relied on their street cred. It was my rich uncle monty in NY that skated by on his college degree.

Good job heart, you cracked my conspiracy.

[scskin]

I think this is a topic that should be addressed more regularly and openly and thus having discussions such as this is a good thing.

The argument concerning BET is old and tired, I've heard it for years and don't really see what point it proves. CMT targets rednecks, Lifetime targets women, ESPN targets sports fans, and what about the no less than 3 Spanish language channels on my tv now. So BET targets black people, or is it African-American(which CAN NOT be used to describe a fair skinned person of African descent).

It would be nice if the lessons of Black history month could be incorporated into the rest of the year where we learn all the rest of the history. I think it does a disservice to these piece of our history by "segregating" it into its own month. A kind of "pay attention to black history because it February, not because it is important" attitude.

Can a "whitey" apply to a historically black college? I believe so.

Can a "whitey" pledge the Omega Psi Phi fraternity? I doubt it.

Are there white organizations that exclude blacks? Sure, and vice versa.

We better get this stuff all worked out, because the Latinos will be joining the debate soon and then what?

I can't speak for Omega Psi Phi but I'm a member of Kappa Alpha Psi and I have white frat brothers. I also know white Phi Beta Sigma's, Alpha Phi Alpha's and Delta Sigma Theta's.

[awd_sr]

The answer to most of these questions originally brought up lies in History, as someone posted.

Why do we have HBCUs, or Historically Black Colleges and Universities, because there was a time when Blacks could not attend traditional universities. I went to Tuskegee down in good 'ol Alabama, a state rich with racial History, most bad, but some good. Schools such as Tuskegee sprung up out of the ambition of pioneers such as Booker T. Washington in the face of racial adversity, all odds were greatly stacked against them. HBCU's are not ALL Black, just like traditional schools are no longer ALL White, but NEVER has a White student been turned away from an HBCU like the thousands of cases where Blacks were not admitted. Ask yourself this, has a Governer ever stood in the doorway to prevent a White student from enrolling in an HBCU, despite a court order to allow them in? You gotta do your research, like the Caveman on the GEICO commercial says.

As far as Black only stations, come on now, are you for real or just blind to the facts. Take a random sample, pick a random station on a random night. Watch it for 6 hours and tell me how many Black shows you see. Tell me how many Black people you see period. The very low number you come up with explains why BET was born, for the very same priciple that HBCU's were born: Blacks can't get on with the American mainstream, so we create our own. Again, BET is not ALL Black either.

I'm baffled by the Black Novel issue. I've never seen a Black novel, and if there was, White people are free to buy them and read them. Its not like back in the days when racism was openly the law where Blacks could not learn to read or go to school, and Whites found teaching Blacks to read were punished. Again, know your History.

Which brings me to Black History month. I'm not even gonna get started on that, but basically, Black History is American History, and needs to be taught 12 months a year, not just during, coincidentally, the shortest month of the year...What kind of sense does that make?

And the "token" Black College game between Grambling and Southern, thats the Bayou Classic, its not a championship game, its one of the longest standing rivalry games in sports history, again, know your history. And as far as good players not coming from HBCUs, again, do your research. There is a top 3 player at every skill position of all time that is out of a HBCU, heard of Jerry Rice, #1 WR of all time? How about Walter Payton? And great players come out every single year. Why do you think most of the NFL talent comes from your traditional schools. Attribute that to the money they bring in. If you were Reggie Bush, would you go to Hampton or USC? Get the national exposure, all the perks that financially an HBCU can't even come close to offering. But try watching a game, especially the halftime show, I'm sure you will enjoy it.

I will agree that had a Black coach said the same thing, it wouldn't be looked at in the same light. In my opinion, this is based on the fact that when you have a group, a culture, or even an individual that was suppressed and treated as less than human for such a long time, uprooted from their continent and dragged across the earth to build a country in which they would not be able to live freely for hundreds of years, then the light bulb finally comes on in the oppressing nations mind that "hey, we are all equal", and changes start to happen over a few decades, sometimes you are given the benefit of the doubt, and that is unfair. Call it guilt if you want as well, but things still have a LONG way to go.

[NavyDave]

if BET didn't show black programs then no one else would. and BET is not as B as it used to be, if you ask me. i go :doh: just as much watching their original programming as i do mtv's .

Heck when it first aired back in the 80's I remember b1tching to cox cable about how MTV had the crisp sharp picture while BET had fuzz.

Anyway that shouldnt be the issue in the first place unless people dont mind MTV getting rid of all of the grunge, devil worship stuff, and play classic yo mtv Raps instead

Now can we drop the subject?

Racism is going to always be here just like deviant behaviour

[iheartskins]

Yeah, your rite, my mother the waitress and my father the bartender didn't need degrees to get their jobs, they relied on their street cred. It was my rich uncle monty in NY that skated by on his college degree.

Good job heart, you cracked my conspiracy.

Well, lacking a college degree didn't stop my (Irish/German) dad from starting and running his own water well drilling business.

[Bonez3]

Just so we're clear, you're saying that poor whites were just as persecuted as blacks in the United States?

No, that's what you said. 'you're family was held back because of economic status'.

This was to clarify that both were discriminated. Which was worse? well, that wasn't the topic. And if both were agreed to be oppressed, than I won't split hairs.

Surely, the visable and awful atrrocities committed in the south were horrifying. But the invisable domestic violence that persisted in the north with white families that were oppressed were also awful. Which is worse, public humiliation caused by lack of oppurtunity or family desecration caused by lack of oppurtunity. Both have similar outcomes.

[Destino]

BTW - BET, is the product of a free market. It satisfied a consumer want. Does anyone really think WET (lol) would see the same type of success in major markets? I don't. There is no demand for the product, because white television entertainment is already catered too.

[Bonez3]

Well, lacking a college degree didn't stop my (Irish/German) dad from starting and running his own water well drilling business.

More power to him. I hope it didn't stop Black fathers either.

[Destino]

No, that's what you said. 'you're family was held back because of economic status'.

This was to clarify that both were discriminated. Which was worse? well, that wasn't the topic. And if both were agreed to be oppressed, than I won't split hairs.

Surely, the visable and awful atrrocities committed in the south were horrifying. But the invisable domestic violence that persisted in the north with white families that were oppressed were also awful. Which is worse, public humiliation caused by lack of oppurtunity or family desecration caused by lack of oppurtunity. Both have similar outcomes.

Which was worse? Are you serious?

[awd_sr]

WET? that sounds like a new SPICE station

[Destino]

WET? that sounds like a new SPICE station

:laugh: :laugh: yeah it does lol.

[Cool Hand Loki]

On the issue of class v. race, I submit this Jim Goad piece for consideration (I didn't write it, nor do I necessarily agree with what the artice contains - please don't project your complaints about this article at me):

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v12n5/htdocs/hey.php

And even if all of those things are true, I don't think it warrants anyone being upset about historically black colleges or BET. Affirmative action is a stickier issue, but to use a justification that's been applied to other issues discussed in this thread, "it's an imperfect course of action, but probably the best possible one."

Again, please don't flame me for posting the piece - it just stuck with me, and this topic reminded me of it. If nothing else, the dude's writing provides a new viewpoint. He took plenty of heat for it, which you'll see if you read the comments below the article.

[NavyDave]

Actually WET is an offshoot of the Spice channel