illone Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Hmmmmmm, Hall of Fame coach with over 40 years coaching experience, 3 SB trophies, and 3rd all time winningest coach in the History of the NFL... or... Lavar Arrington.... well anything you say about him really can't compare to what Gibbs has done so what's the point? Some of you guys really need a history lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrocrb96 Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Lavar Arrington not one of Joe Gibb's core players when he use to have Dexter Manley as one? Lavar is a 3 time pro bowl linebacker being blackballed by the Redskins. I'm not a Redskin fan but I hate to see stupidity go on with a team. Greg Williams needs to get this guy on the field making plays besides having all that money being wasted. Sometimes coaches think they are bigger than the game. GET THIS GUY ON THE FIELD OR TRADE HIM SO HE CAN LIGHT THE REDSKINS UP WHEN HE PLAYS AGAINST YOU. Then hollar in the media that he doesn't do it in practice. That's such b/s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sith lord Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Hmmmmmm,Hall of Fame coach with over 40 years coaching experience, 3 SB trophies, and 3rd all time winningest coach in the History of the NFL... or... Lavar Arrington.... well anything you say about him really can't compare to what Gibbs has done so what's the point? Some of you guys really need a history lesson. True, but you can't assume one side is right based on accomplishments. There's always two sides to every story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 om...true enough...:-).... but this case seems different. LA is obviously playing out a strategy - one that I think will backfire. That said.......until informed otherwise (by his doctors)....the true experts are not Lavar OR the coaching staff. and we ahven't heard from these folks. as for other arguments. we do have a great defense. .....a defense that could be better in several areas and one that is apparently lacking in depth. some of the pre-season moves are making more sense now (e.g., the cb merri-go-round) viewed n this light. the injury issue would be very easy to clear up and it's in everyone's interests to do so regardless of the outcome. ope...I continue to believe there is more to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Nobody has suggested it is, Al.But it's whole lot more compelling in the context of fans judging professional coaches from their computer screens on personnel decisions. If you had to bet your life on either Gibbs/Williams or skinzruleALL/#56isaGOD, my guess is you wouldn't trot out the old appeal to authority fallacy very often, but appeal instead to common sense. No? True Om--very true. But there are some on here whose opinions I value just as much as those of GW/JG--yours being among them. I think agreeing with these people when their opinions conflict with GW/JG isn't such a bad thing--even if their access to information is supremely inferior to the insiders. For example, if (G-d FORBID!) Dave Campo, or someone of his ilk, were our coach, I would almost value skinzruleALL/#56isaGOD opinion more than such a coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renegademrnate23 Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 It was on ESPN.com too, same stuff, Gibbs said hes done with it, so dammit, so am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawgjk9 Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 i honestly dont think it matters if lavar plays...as long as we keep piling on the wins.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouvan59 Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Go back and watch film on Lavar. You have a lot of film to cover and a lot to learn. When you finally see the truth of it, come on back. We'll be waiting for you. The problem is that even watching film we (the average or even very knowledgable fan) have no idea what the defense called is on any given play. I like to think I have a pretty good working knowledge of the game but I don't pretend to know if Marcus Washington was lined up a yard too deep or covered the wrong guy except in the most obvious situations. On Tatum Bell's first touchdown run, was Denver's intention to leave Phillip Daniels unblocked and send the left tackle to block Warrick Holdman? It seems kind of silly to do that even though it worked. Where was the safety supposed to be on that play? I've seen quite a few people blame Holdman on this play (I suspect it has mostly been the Lavarites) but I find it hard to blame a guy who is taken out on a good block by a 325 lb tackle rather than the guy who went unblocked and missed the tackle in the backfield. In conclusion, I am going to defer to the coaching staff who know the calls, break down the film and coach the players. My guess is they have a better grasp on the defensive responsibilities than just about anybody here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 The Irony in all this, at least to me, is that the very thing that Lavar and many fans have complained about is the very thing that has allowed Lavar to be a starter in this league. 5 different D Coordinators over 5 years. We finally get some stability at D Coord and Lavar is benched. I would bet anyone that if Lewis or Rhodes had returned, he would have been benched at some point under their systems. It seems like one season is enought to tell that a player is or isn't 'getting it'. Actually, IIRC, Lewis benched Lavar on several occasions and delegated him to a 3rd down pass rusher. That was within the first few games. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 True Om--very true.But there are some on here whose opinions I value just as much as those of GW/JG--yours being among them. I think agreeing with these people when their opinions conflict with GW/JG isn't such a bad thing--even if their access to information is supremely inferior to the insiders. For example, if (G-d FORBID!) Dave Campo, or someone of his ilk, were our coach, I would almost value skinzruleALL/#56isaGOD opinion more than such a coach. That's flattering, Sol, but please don't put me in the same sentence with Gibbs/Williams on this stuff. All I can do is process the information available to me, just like the rest of us in this conversation. And that information is a gnat on King Kong's butt compared to the information available to the guys actually in the room. It's what I've been saying since coming to this board 5 years ago. The one thing no one will EVER see me do is equate fans-eye-view conjecture---no matter how charmingly presented ---with working inside knowledge. Unlike so many of our brethren here, I'm okay with accepting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Joe came out and directly stated that he told Lavar exactly what he needed to do. I don't see a single reason to suspect Joe is lying, so I believe him. Although I must admit, I'd like to know what he said to him I don't think Lavar is lying either. The two appear to be addressing different questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 That's flattering, Sol, but please don't put me in the same sentence with Gibbs/Williams on this stuff. All I can do is process the information available to me, just like the rest of us in this conversation. And that information is a gnat on King Kong's butt compared to the information available to the guys actually in the room.It's what I've been saying since coming to this board 5 years ago. The one thing no one will EVER see me do is equate fans-eye-view conjecture---no matter how charmingly presented ---with working inside knowledge. Unlike so many of our brethren here, I'm okay with accepting that. I guess it ends up being a balance just like so many things. [before I go any further, I should note that I agree with what the coaching staff is doing in respect to the Lavar situation and by in large with everything else that they've done since arriving (back) in Washington.] Of course, we as the fans are only able to get access to so much information and probably in the grand scheme of things, such information access pales in comparison to that which is available to the coaching staff. I take this as a given and something that is basically indisputable. Also, by and large, I grant that in nearly every case, the coaching staff will know more about the game and football, how to manage it, how to win, and all of the skills that go along with it. However, at times there can be disconnects between the access and the processing of that access, and I think this is where the hardcore analytical fan can get an edge. (As a quick tangent, this is how many money managers make their money, they, through thorough research and analysis of the companies fundamentals, management team, product, market, etc., at times know the company better than the CEO, the Board and the Management Team.) And while the Money Manager/Equity Analyst is a rough, even potentially innappropriate analogy, I think it's indicative of how I feel about some of the fans perspectives: Our access to raw information might be less, our knowledge of the business in question may be inferior, but at some point our collective ability (especially in respect to some of the great football minds that frequent this site), can process the information in a compelling enough way that they can process the information in a better way than the management team that's in place. I'm not going to say that this is necessarily or actually the case with the 'Skins this season, but it remains a possibility in any business. Sometimes outsiders who are not privy to every detail, but have enough of a portrait, can, through their own expertise, come to a conclusion that conflicts with the coaches, and can also be right. I guess I just leave that possibility out there. And when bulldog, thinker, inmate or Art or one of Our guys makes a point that indicates that a coach is making a bad decision, given what I believe them to know, I will, in some cases, trust and give a lot of weight to their point of view. I hope that didn't come across as a ramble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Iheart, Om... get a room you two. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeySkin Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 The line has been crossed now. If this LaVar crap is upsetting Gibbs, Arrington seriously needs to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36HAMMER Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 :whoknows: I believe the maddening thing is that no one really knows, and we are just swinging wildly in the dark or grasping for straws(which ever you prefer) as to the reasons why a very talented player and former face of the team is collecting splinters instead of weekly honors .i don't question his fearse desire to play,nor do i question the coaches . so, i am forced to let it go and sit back and watch it play out.perfect world, they kiss and make up or he submits what ever needs to happen and he gets back on the feild. but, they're looking for something from him and are not getting it.can't we all just get along.here's to positive resolution to this and a playoff run :point2sky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 To me it comes down to winning games. I don't care how proud you are, when you are evaluated on winning, you will put the players on the field who will best help you do that. Even is Joe Gibbs and Gregg Williams hated Lavar Arrington (which I don't think they do), if they thought he gave us a better chance to win than Holdman does, they'd play him. It's that simple. Neither one of these men has given us ANY reason to believe they would do otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 I guess it ends up being a balance just like so many things. [before I go any further, I should note that I agree with what the coaching staff is doing in respect to the Lavar situation and by in large with everything else that they've done since arriving (back) in Washington.] Of course, we as the fans are only able to get access to so much information and probably in the grand scheme of things, such information access pales in comparison to that which is available to the coaching staff. I take this as a given and something that is basically indisputable. Also, by and large, I grant that in nearly every case, the coaching staff will know more about the game and football, how to manage it, how to win, and all of the skills that go along with it. However, at times there can be disconnects between the access and the processing of that access, and I think this is where the hardcore analytical fan can get an edge. (As a quick tangent, this is how many money managers make their money, they, through thorough research and analysis of the companies fundamentals, management team, product, market, etc., at times know the company better than the CEO, the Board and the Management Team.) And while the Money Manager/Equity Analyst is a rough, even potentially innappropriate analogy, I think it's indicative of how I feel about some of the fans perspectives: Our access to raw information might be less, our knowledge of the business in question may be inferior, but at some point our collective ability (especially in respect to some of the great football minds that frequent this site), can process the information in a compelling enough way that they can process the information in a better way than the management team that's in place. I'm not going to say that this is necessarily or actually the case with the 'Skins this season, but it remains a possibility in any business. Sometimes outsiders who are not privy to every detail, but have enough of a portrait, can, through their own expertise, come to a conclusion that conflicts with the coaches, and can also be right. I guess I just leave that possibility out there. And when bulldog, thinker, inmate or Art or one of Our guys makes a point that indicates that a coach is making a bad decision, given what I believe them to know, I will, in some cases, trust and give a lot of weight to their point of view. I hope that didn't come across as a ramble. Nicely done. Academic even. But let me ask you the same question I asked Al. You and I walk OUT of the Ivory Tower to go get a post-class beer. Man walks puts a gun to your head and says, "dude, you gonna side with Gibbs and Williams on this one or with bulldog, thinker, inmate or Art? Decide. One ... two ..." Whatchu gonna do? * And zoony ... don't be jealous. We're just friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenkins Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 I still say this is personal. The bottom line is benching Lavar never became an issue until the contract situation and Lavar saying he was rushed back. Now Lavar may not be right for all of that but this coaching staff has benched Lavar mainly because of that. Gibb and the Skins organization can't convince me otherwise. This is personal. Which means the coaching staff is just as childish. Thanks for your insight. Truer words have never been spoken, but no one is listening. I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback from this quote; I've said it before, but no one wants to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35inaquarter Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 More often than not on a run play the end has contain...not tackling reponsibility. Daniel's got contain. I think the coaching staff would be more clear about Holdman's inability to shed that block if this LA thing wasn't all over the media. They are trying to keep the team focused on objectives so they continue to quiet all the media chatter. Fact is Holdman's numbers are lousy. I believe in the coaching staff. But it kills me that LA and the staff cannot get on the same page. I think GW's personality has as much to do with this as anything, and Joe is definitely going to back a coach before a player regardless of whether Dan Snyder has dubbed him "The face..." or not. I have all faith in Gibb's. He managed a certain Wilbur Marshall back in the day, remember? In fact it would be great if Marshall would have a little chat with 56 asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Thanks for your insight. Truer words have never been spoken, but no one is listening. I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback from this quote; I've said it before, but no one wants to hear it. Why should anyone take this fan's point of view any more seriously than the 4,612 other equally valid opinions out there, jenkins? It's based on pure conjecture, just like each the 4,611 others---mine being the exception of course, becuase, well, it just is. I do agree that no one is listening, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Nicely done. Academic even. But let me ask you the same question I asked Al. You and I walk OUT of the Ivory Tower to go get a post-class beer. Man walks puts a gun to your head and says, "dude, you gonna side with Gibbs and Williams on this one or with bulldog, thinker, inmate or Art? Decide. One ... two ..." Whatchu gonna do? * And zoony ... don't be jealous. We're just friends. You know the answer to that, I say "Art, relax, I agree with you!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Tou-effin'-che. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Thanks for your insight. Truer words have never been spoken, but no one is listening. I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback from this quote; I've said it before, but no one wants to hear it. the same coach that played John Riggins and made him a star.... but this one is personal? whatever you say. ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 No, Art's the guy holding the bazooka. ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 True, but you can't assume one side is right based on accomplishments. There's always two sides to every story. I agree. However, one man built this organization into what it was and is getting back to. One man has said countless times what he expects of his players and staff. One man has talked the talk AND walked the walk. One man has worked countless hours for the Redskins and one man has NEVER said one bad word to the media about this organization. Any guesses who it is? The point I'm making is that Gibbs doesn't play this game that Lavar wants to play with the media. It's so obvious to me and others here why Lavar is in the doghouse. Maybe because I was in the Military and I understand what it's like to be an "ambassador" for my country(company). I will just say this, if I owned a Football team and Lavar was playing for me I'd feel betrayed with all the comments he has made. I agree with Gibbs way of keeping things in house. I agree that all things Redskins are not the business of all fans. I think that problems should be handled behind closed doors and that we should all handle ourselves like professionals. There is no reason for Lavar to go to the media and say ANYTHING bad/negative about the Skins, even if it's true. He should be a man, suck it up and go directly to Gibbs, Williams, or Lindsay if he feels the need to vent or talk. Gibbs should not have to be held accountable to the media or anyone but Snyder if there's an issue within the organization. He certainly shouldn't have to defend his stance with us, he's earned it. Lavar needs to keep his mouth shut. He's only hurting himself by airing his dirty laundry. Lavar sounds like a stubborn spoiled kid right now. Awwww, poor baby doesn't want to work like the rest of us. :violin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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