Etan Thomas Electrifies Anti-War Washington

[Ghost of]

I don't think you and I would part ways here as much as you think. There are a ton of horrible people on both sides of the fence and part of what's wrong with this country is that political correctness no longer allows us to call them out. Because that's just ad hominem and down right mean. But it's also in large part true.

A ton of the lefties you see at anti-war rallies are horrible people. I've been there and met them myself. They say horrid things about our troops and speak of them like they are murderers out to do as much evil on the world as they can get away with. They're trash and I've told them that to their faces. This isn't even mentioning the communists that seem to have never met a anti-war rally they didn't want to hijack.

Both sides of politics need to stop instinctively defending their ugly allies. Nothing of what I'm saying is directed at you personally or at any right winger that really does care about people. I work with a lot of them and have personally met right wingers that give more then half their income to charity. But there is a growing trend on the right I don't like and I'll call it out. We can talk about the anti-war trends whenever you want, I was banned off DemocraticUnderground for my thoughts on that and other moonbat BS. I'm sure I could generate a good laugh from some of those who think I'm a hard core lefty.

So long as it doesn't become our sole focus, I can agree with you Destino. I've done a lot of that on 'rightist' message boards, because there are always the ones you CAN TELL that have 'certain sentiments.'

Call them on it, but I think, like Nixon going to China--it is probably most helpful if I call out those idiots and you call out the idiots that are OSTENSIBLY on your side.

No matter how much we clean it up, though, there are always going to be fierce disagreements on these issues and two basically honorable people can hold horrible opinions of their opponent because of the divergence in worldview.

[Destino]

The War on Poverty is a failure, and I'd add that wars on amorphous social ills is right out of the Nazi propaganda of the 20s-40s.

I disagree. The war on poverty in the USis a stunning success. I work with people from other nations, poor nations in central american and much of the developing world. They come here and ask to see the so called ghettos. Their response is always something to this effect - "Your poor have cars, housing, TVs, and other stuff the poor in our country do not even dare to dream of."

Because of our war on poverty we provide an very high (maybe not the highest) standard of living for as many people as we are able. It's not perfect and could be better. But if you look at it in proper context (of the world) you see that the US has done a very good job.

[Ghost of]

I disagree. The war on poverty in the USis a stunning success. I work with people from other nations, poor nations in central american and much of the developing world. They come here and ask to see the so called ghettos. Their response is always something to this effect - "Your poor have cars, housing, TVs, and other stuff the poor in our country do not even dare to dream of."

Because of our war on poverty we provide an very high (maybe not the highest) standard of living for as many people as we are able. It's not perfect and could be better. But if you look at it in proper context (of the world) you see that the US has done a very good job.

Poverty, to me, has always been about more than pure income. Besides, in some areas that are 'poor,' the people do have jobs and income aside from 'public assistance' but the neighborhood is still violent and dangerous because of subcultural factors that they may have in common with a true "project."

I don't know that I ascribe the poor in the US having TVs and cars to public assistance...

I live right next to an assisted housing complex and while it's not terrible(it's Seattle, after all) I can tell you it sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of noise, behavior of many residents, cleanliness(though many residents do try as well--it's a mix.) Many of the behaviors we associate with the 'poor' are not due to economic deprivation but cultural patterns that took hold and are difficult to extirpate. (the ones that fit in better, I'd say, are the immigrants that live there)

Then again, what I described sounds like student housing in Ann Arbor

[luckydevil]

Ghost, I want to agree with you. I really do. But I have a read of great deal of studies about this recently and they reach very different conclusions.

The War on Poverty is a failure,

You know I agree with that. In fact I would argue that much of welfare state was born out of lust for power, not of any sense of social justice.

[askounes]

Etan sounds like a really smart guy... if he could marry that with "informed", he could be formiddable.

[luckydevil]

The war on poverty in the USis a stunning success. I work with people from other nations, poor nations in central american and much of the developing world. They come here and ask to see the so called ghettos. Their response is always something to this effect - "Your poor have cars, housing, TVs, and other stuff the poor in our country do not even dare to dream of."

Ugh, thank the market place, not the state. I find it amusing that you are using this argument. This is an argument typically used by libertarians and conservatives.

[Ghost of]

Ghost, I want to agree with you. I really do. But I have a read of great deal of studies about this recently and they reach very different conclusions.

You know I agree with that. In fact I would argue that much of welfare state was born out of lust for power, not of any sense of social justice.

The problem is, what came first?

What I mean is--the original critics of welfare, I'm certain, weren't skeptical because of racial reasons(esp since, at the time, whites would be big-time recipients of aid)

Also, do we divide sentiment re: welfare from the views on 'entitlements' in general, which we know are widescale and not necessarily disproportionately distributed to any one racial group?

And again--what came first? Just going off the example of the place I live near--people who complain about the housing complex don't complain BECAUSE someone is of a certain race but because of noise or other behaviors. years ago, some cats from there apparently would come through(it's an open community) and talk about how nice it must be to be "rich and white." Our apartment complex has Asians, blacks, Hispanics, mulattos, etc. And few of us would qualify as 'rich.' I guess that justifies trespassing, theft and vandalism, then.

Who is racist here? Who is oppressed and fearful? Who helped form the perceptions of the 'welfare' recipient or the Section 8 recipient the most? Which came first?

based on my PERSONAL experience in a liberal city--the prejudice came after multiple negative experiences with certain types. The views may be somewhat unfair, but as un-PC as they are, they are based on experience. And the perceptions aren't necessarily of ALL of a given group, just those that typically confirm stereotypes of certain subgroups in the population.

I would add in THIS city, that there are plenty of white people who look like they qualify and receive pub assistance and many of them(aside from the mentally ill that may or may not be problematic) and I don't think public opinion of them is at an all-time high, either.

[chomerics]

While leftist protestors march in front of Veteran's Hospitals, the 'right wingers' actually give support, both material and emotional to soldiers. They don't "support the troops" any more than they care about the poor.

Ghost, your argument would hold more water if the righties actually voted for programs that helped the soldiers and the veterans instead of voting against them. You see, the righties do not support the soldiers with "material" they vote against funding the soldiers.

BTW, do we have all of our vehicles up-armored yet? How about flack jackets for our soldiers? No, but we sure as hell haven't underfunded the bogus "missle defense shield"

Again, the right is for the complex, not the soldier. The left is for the soldier, not the complex. If you think creating and funneling the military industrial complex is "support for the soldier", then so be it. I try to actually look at the amendments which are voted on who supports the bills rather then fall into the rhetorical trap.

On adding $2.8Billion in VA funding

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00055

On Addins $2Billion to VA funding

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00090

On Adding $216million for Up-armoring vehicles

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00108

You might like to check out those amendments seeing as how not a single republican voted for the first two, and it took 10 republicans to break ranks to pass the third.

You see, instead of buying into the BS rhetoric, I actually look at what the votes are, and who is ACTUALLY voting to support our troops, and it isn't the righties, that's for sure.

[Thiebear]

That was an incredible speech.. He had a point and made it well...

I completely disagree but am glad he put that all together, maybe it will get others to join in...

The water is warm, jump in...

[chomerics]

I don't think lefties are horrible, but I do think they believe that the magical answer to problems is to throw money at it and ask for a vote in return.

You don't get out much huh spiff Seriously though, what do you think the righties have done for the past 5 years? Look at Katrina, the Hurricanes in Florida last year, farm subsidies, tax breaks for the ultra wealthy etc. etc.

[Ghost of]

Chom

You know, I hate to say it, but I really wasn't talking to you and I was trying to make a point to Destino about the whole ad hominem thing. I'd also point out that by 'right wingers' I'm talking about PEOPLE and their decisions and donations of time and material. Not political decisions that have no doubt had their numbers tortured and manipulated and framed to make your political enemy seem as hypocritical as possible.

Again, there's a reason I don't participate here anymore in the political threads.

[Spaceman Spiff]

You don't get out much huh spiff Seriously though, what do you think the righties have done for the past 5 years? Look at Katrina, the Hurricanes in Florida last year, farm subsidies, tax breaks for the ultra wealthy etc. etc.

Hey, I'll be the first to admit the bush presidency hasn't been stellar.

[chomerics]

Ghost, I want to agree with you. I really do. But I have a read of great deal of studies about this recently and they reach very different conclusions.

You know I agree with that. In fact I would argue that much of welfare state was born out of lust for power, not of any sense of social justice.

Lucky, how do you account for the decrease in poverty with many of the Clintonian welfare to work programs that were successful. I agree that the current system we have right now is a failure, but that is because the previous programs were stripped under Bush, and instead of looking for solutions, he just throws money at the problem.

Poverty can have a solution, and we were already on the way during the 90's. Poverty decreased from 14% to 10.7% (I believe those are the numbers, but they may not be exact). This is a direct result of welfare reform, welfare to work and various education and training programs.

[chomerics]

Chom

You know, I hate to say it, but I really wasn't talking to you and I was trying to make a point to Destino about the whole ad hominem thing. I'd also point out that by 'right wingers' I'm talking about PEOPLE and their decisions and donations of time and material. Not political decisions that have no doubt had their numbers tortured and manipulated and framed to make your political enemy seem as hypocritical as possible.

Again, there's a reason I don't participate here anymore in the political threads.

Ghost, you know I don't have a personal problem with you, but when I see you continue to espouse a false talking point, and try to point leftists as against our soldiers, I will call you out on it.

I purposely looked up the amendments and their votes to show you that what you stated was not correct.

As for hijacking your conversation with Destino, stop putting in false information about the "leftists" and you won't have to worry about me butting in

[chomerics]

Hey, I'll be the first to admit the bush presidency hasn't been stellar.

I know you have opened up your eyes about the Bush Administration, but I was simply pointing out that it isn't the "leftist" that throws money for votes, it is ALL politicians, and my one defense for leftys spending money for votes. . . Hey, at least they pay for it, and don't leave the bill to my generation.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I know you have opened up your eyes about the Bush Administration, but I was simply pointing out that it isn't the "leftist" that throws money for votes, it is ALL politicians, and my one defense for leftys spending money for votes. . . Hey, at least they pay for it, and don't leave the bill to my generation.

Ah, ok. And I agree. Which is why I hate politicians and politics in general. And consequentially, I'm not well versed in the arena as well as you are and others on here who argue back and forth with long posts. And while I do realize my lack of knowledge on the topics at hand isn't a great thing, I am too ill repulsed by the politicians to care as much as I should.

And I do realize that my sentiments are what plague a fair share of my generation as well as younger ones, but in all fairness if the politicians weren't such assholes, maybe we'd feel differently. :2cents:

[Thinking Skins]

That's a bit unfair. Now it is true that many on the right do indeed have disdain for the poor, but not all right-wingers do. Many on the right oppose welfare, because they believe it causes far more harm than good (and there is indeed a great deal of evidence that supports that thesis).

You would have a good point if his only attack was on how these politicians treat racism. But what about the cycle that the politicians put the schools through? They say that they'll give money to the best schools, so the worse schools get no money. Consequentially the worse schools don't improve. Then they test the worse schools and what happens, the worse schools are still the worse schools? So what happens? The worse schools get no money.

What about the "If he's 12 and can pull a trigger, he needs to suffer the consequences of a grown man that pulls a trigger"?

What about the "business" that hospitals in America have become, where how much time you get is dependent on who your health care is?

And I bet theres no contradiction in the NO ABORTION, but CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS GOOD?

And I guess there are several documents that say that any Black man reaching for his walot is really reaching for a gun so he must be shot over and over again, by everybody on the force!

[luckydevil]

They say that they'll give money to the best schools, so the worse schools get no money. Consequentially the worse schools don't improve. Then they test the worse schools and what happens, the worse schools are still the worse schools? So what happens? The worse schools get no money.

More funding more often does not translate into better schools. Just look at DC public schools, they are among the highest funded schools in the country. I don't support No Child left behind, by the way. But rewarding failure with more money is not the solution.

Etan means well, but the rhetoric is old and intellectual bankrupt. It's nothing new. Managerial liberalism has failed.

[Thiebear]

DC schools vs. Utah schools 10k vs. 5k and DC schools suck. Ward 8 especially.

Its been proven in Newport that if you challenge a 96% black school that has 98% free lunch programs with learning and challenges they will pass every time.

Left or Right has not done it! Left or Right NEEDS poor people. at least the politicians do... You take the number 1,2,3 proven ways to fix it and adapt it to the situations that would best...

But noooooooo, we rather point out everything except taking a bullhorn and screaming that this school has done what very few have... or the Company in SC/NC? that is employee driven (SCA???) or something like that.... the Prime example of Not being politically correct and working..

/rant off.

[visionary]

The Speech Everyone Is Talking About: Etan Thomas Electrifies Anti-War Washington

Editor's Note: The following is a transcript of NBA star Etan Thomas's speech at DC's anti-war march on Washington, Sept. 24, 2005. Thomas is a power forward for the Washington Wizards, and is the author of a book of poems entitled More Than An Athlete.

Giving all honor, thanks and praises to God for courage and wisdom, this is a very important rally. I'd like to thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts, feelings and concerns regarding a tremendous problem that we are currently facing. This problem is universal, transcending race, economic background, religion and culture, and this problem is none other than the current administration which has set up shop in the White House.

In fact, I'd like to take some of these cats on a field trip. I want to get big yellow buses with no air conditioner and no seatbelts and round up Bill O'Reilly, Pat Buchanan, Trent Lott, Sean Hannity, Dick Cheney, Jeb Bush, Bush Jr. and Bush Sr., John Ashcroft, Giuliani, Ed Gillespie, Katherine Harris, that little bow-tied Tucker Carlson and any other right-wing conservative Republicans I can think of, and take them all on a trip to the hood.

Not to do no 30-minute documentary. I mean, I want to drop them off and leave them there, let them become one with the other side of the tracks, get them four mouths to feed and no welfare, have scare tactics run through them like a laxative, criticizing them for needing assistance.

I'd show them working families that make too much to receive welfare but not enough to make ends meet. I'd employ them with jobs with little security, let them know how it feels to be an employee at will, able to be fired at the drop of a hat. I'd take away their opportunities, then try their children as adults, sending their 13-year-old babies to life in prison. I'd sell them dreams of hopelessness while spoon-feeding their young with a daily dose of inferior education. I'd tell them no child shall be left behind, then take more money out of their schools, tell them to show and prove themselves on standardized exams testing their knowledge on things that they haven't been taught, and then I'd call them inferior.

I'd soak into their interior notions of endless possibilities. I'd paint pictures of assisted productivity if they only agreed to be all they can be, dress them up with fatigues and boots with promises of pots of gold at the end of rainbows, free education to waste terrain on those who finish their bid. Then I'd close the lid on that barrel of fools gold by starting a war, sending their children into the midst of a hostile situation, and while they're worried about their babies being murdered and slain in foreign lands, I'd grace them with the pain of being sick and unable to get medicine.

Give them health benefits that barely cover the common cold. John Q. would become their reality as HMOs introduce them to the world of inferior care, filling their lungs with inadequate air, penny pinching at the expense of patients, doctors practicing medicine in an intricate web of rationing and regulations. Patients wander the maze of managed bureaucracy, costs rise and quality quickly deteriorates, but they say that managed care is cheaper. They'll say that free choice in medicine will defeat the overall productivity, and as co-payments are steadily rising, I'll make their grandparents have to choose between buying their medicine and paying their rent.

Then I'd feed them hypocritical lines of being pro-life as the only Christian way to be. Then very contradictingly, I'd fight for the spread of the death penalty, as if thou shall not kill applies to babies but not to criminals.

Then I'd introduce them to those sworn to protect and serve, creating a curb in their trust in the law. I'd show them the nightsticks and plungers, the pepper spray and stun guns, the mace and magnums that they'd soon become acquainted with, the shakedowns and illegal search and seizures, the planted evidence, being stopped for no reason.

Harassment ain't even the half of it. Forty-one shots to two raised hands, cell phones and wallets that are confused with illegal contrabands. I'd introduce them to pigs who love making their guns click like wine glasses. Everlasting targets surrounded by bullets, making them a walking bull's eye, a living piñata, held at the mercy of police brutality, and then we'll see if they finally weren't aware of the truth, if their eyes weren't finally open like a box of Pandora.

I'd show them how the other side of the tracks carries the weight of the world on our shoulders and how society seems to be holding us down with the force of a boulder. The bird of democracy flew the coop back in Florida.

See, for some, and justice comes in packs like wolves in sheep's clothing. T.K.O.d by the right hooks of life, many are left staggering under the weight of the day, leaning against the ropes of hope. When your dreams have fallen on barren ground, it becomes difficult to keep pushing yourself forward like a train, administering pain like a doctor with a needle, their sequels continue more lethal than injections.

They keep telling us all is equal. I'd tell them that instead of giving tax breaks to the rich, financing corporate mergers and leading us into unnecessary wars and under-table dealings with Enron and Halliburton, maybe they can work on making society more peaceful. Instead, they take more and more money out of inner city schools, give up on the idea of rehabilitation and build more prisons for poor people. With unemployment continuing to rise like a deficit, it's no wonder why so many think that crime pays.

Maybe this trip will make them see the error of their ways. Or maybe next time, we'll just all get out and vote. And as far as their stay in the White House, tell them that numbered are their days.

Hmmm, I seem to recall Carlson at least in the thick of things in New Orleans during a lot of the aftermath.

[Thinking Skins]

More funding more often does not translate into better schools. Just look at DC public schools, they are among the highest funded schools in the country. I don't support No Child left behind, by the way. But rewarding failure with more money is not the solution.

Etan means well, but the rhetoric is old and intellectual bankrupt. It's nothing new. Managerial liberalism has failed.

DC schools suck because the monet being put into DC public schools is not going into the education of DC school students. Its going into protection of the factuly, and when there's a chance, fixing the holes in the roofs and the falling cement and the lead-based paint chips that are falling everywhere.

Meanwhile students in DC schools are still using books that were published in 1950; what are supposed to be hard-cover books now look like novels that an old housewife has had so long that her husband uses it to put out his cigarettes.

I mean statements implying that there's enough money going into DC schools is exactly what the problem is. Go and take a trip into Spingarn High School, or Eastern High School. Drop by Coodledge if you get a chance. These schools are at the bottom of the well.

And instead of giving help to these schools to better educate the students, people say "well these students aren't going to be anything anyway so why waste the money?". Thats just a shame.

[Thinking Skins]

Etan means well, but the rhetoric is old and intellectual bankrupt. It's nothing new. Managerial liberalism has failed.

You're right, Etan means well. And I'm not gonna sit up and say that its just these guys he named, or just the Republicans, or just the Conservatives. I've got better vision than that. But I still respect Etan for addressing this issue, which is a major issue in America, whether we ignore it or not. He chose not to ignore it, and I feel it important, better yet imperative for the rest of America (at least those who want this situation to change) to keep talking about it.

Talking may not be physically doing things to improve the situation, but talking about the situation shines light on the situation and shining light on the situation will inspire others to shine light on it. And so if there is enough light shined on this situation, eventually the rest of America will come over to see where the light is coming from.

Somebody said that Etan is rich so he can't talk about the rich getting richer. Thats like Blacks in the 1950's who said that "Whites can't help the Civil Rights Movement." Its one of the most insane statements that can be made. Just as Whites controlled (control) the Civil Rights issue since they have the power, the wealthy have that same power, and so they have a major say in how we help the poor.

If nobody but the poor talk about the problems amongst the poor, then the problems of the poor will never be addressed at the lunch tables of the rich. Then the meetings, which contain only rich people, will address only rich issues, and the poor will be left out.

If anything, more rich people should be doing like Etan is doing and question why America is doing so little to help the poor.

[luckydevil]

blakman,

Some of us believe that the system is broken and that all the money in the world isn't going to fix it.

The state of the poor in this country is indeed tragic, particularly in the inner city. As far as I am concerned, government is the problem not the solution.

[chomerics]

blakman,

Some of us believe that the system is broken and that all the money in the world isn't going to fix it.

The state of the poor in this country is indeed tragic, particularly in the inner city. As far as I am concerned, government is the problem not the solution.

Lucky, it is easy to say the government is problem, but I disagree. Good government can work, corrupt government can not. Poverty decreased under Clinton because of certain programs set up to get people off of welfare. With the programs no longer in effect, poverty increased.

I agree that you can not just throw money at the problem, and if you do, you make the situation worse, but there are other options. We started to get things going in the right direction, they have slipped back to the old way ie. just throw money around, and that is not the solution. If things stay this way, they will just get worse, but if you have the right government in place, you can make it work. We did it in the 90's, we can do it again, you just have to eliminate the corrupt neo-cons in power.

[Ghost of]

Irish, Italians, Jews, the tenements of the 19th and early 20th century.

Russians, Polish, etc etc plus various Asian groups have all come into the country at varying levels of desperate poverty.

many of the terrible things described in the 'inner city' apply as much to areas that are beautiful in an environmental sense--South Central LA, Seattle, etc.

I've been poorer than 'the poor' and in schools of varying quality. The black side of my family is more accomplished than the white side.

At a certain point, we have to look at what pathologies have evolved in these communities and what holds them back(and I'd include Appalachia and many parts of meth-riddled rural America) instead of what the rich haven't done.

I have a friend in Philly who lived in the projects and they had recently started building low-rise duplex type project buildings. he said he had gone on a tour inside one and was amazed at how nice they were. His somewhat bitter sentiment after making these observations is that in a year or two they'd be torn up and f-ed up on the inside.

Culture is impacted by economics, but economics and quality of life is impacted as much by culture.

The wealthy don't owe the poor anything more than what's already been done. And some people think it's a touch offensive to have new homes built and given to people merely because of their income level, while others have to make payments for decades. Or whatever other form of aid one might envisage.

Oh, the other thing is that many poor people, statistically, are young people. We aren't talking static classes. My friend, originally from Inkster in Michigan, is now at Cornell at NY. Somehow his 'broken home' and poor circumstances didn't stop he and his brother from obtaining degrees.

At a certain point, the individual poor person(including many who achieved much and are now despised as 'haters of the poor') owes it to himself and to his community and family to make the right changes.

often, when someone tries to make the neighborhood safe, whose side is taken? Who complains about police not being there, and then complains because it's an "occupying force" when it IS there in force? When a guy crashes his motorcycle and dies while fleeing police, what is the response? A shake of the head and "he was a fool" or riots?