The Hobbit BOOK THREAD

A place to discuss the book and its relationship to the movie without dropping spoilers for the non-readers.

I was really surprised how much filler was used. The scene in the mountain pass isn't really that far into the book. But it was close to the end of the first movie. I still enjoyed it though, it didn't feel like a Victorian novel that was just getting spread out because they got paid by the word.

Was there a Necromancer in the book? I don't remember him..

Also was there a One armed Goblin King "hunting" the party?

Was there a Necromancer in the book? I don't remember him..

Also was there a One armed Goblin King "hunting" the party?

The Necromancer was mentioned a few times but never appeared. As for the one armed goblin king, I don't remember him being one armed (are we talking about the one in the caves?) before Bilbo meets Gollum?

The Necromancer was mentioned a few times but never appeared. As for the one armed goblin king, I don't remember him being one armed (are we talking about the one in the caves?) before Bilbo meets Gollum?

Movie Spoiler Alert: :ninja: In the movie they have a Goblin King who rules in Moriea, who has sworn to wipe out the line of the kings under the lonely mountain. He killed Thorin's grandfather, and father, and Thorin oaken-shield cut his arm off in the battle for Morea..

That's all given as background in the movie... Didn't remember any of that.

Looking at IDB :ninja: They have Benedict Cumberbatch as playing both Smog and the Necromancer..

The creature with one arm is an Orc and not a Goblin right?

Slight confusion here for you guys.

The goblin king is the fat ruler with the bublous sack of a double chin. He IS in the novel.

The one armed pale orc is an orc, not a goblin. He is NOT in the novel; though his backstory is in the literature. His (I believe grandson) is mentioned briefly in the novel but his presence in the story appears to have been added because otherwise the only main antagonist wouldn't even appear for 4+ hours of film.

Well a few things. Goblins and Orcs were the same thing in Tolkien's writing...I believe he used goblin early and switched to orc in later literature.

When determining whether to go through the forest, Gandalf says (this is in the book) something about not being able to go through the lands of the Necromancer to the South. I always assumed he was referring to Sauron.

As for the Goblin King...it's been awhile since I read the book, but I'm fairly certain he was never mentioned as having one arm in the book.

You guys keep differentiating between goblins and orcs. I'm not so sure there really is much of a difference:

In The Book of Lost Tales the names Orcs and goblin are given to creatures who enslave and war with the Elves. Christopher Tolkien notes that whilst in the Tale of Tinúviel the author clearly differentiates between "goblins and Orcs", the two terms appear to be synonymous in the Tale of Turambar.

The Qenya Lexicon from approximately 1915 defines Orc as meaning "monster, demon", and the Gnomish Lexicon dated 1917 defines Orc as "goblin", alongside a definition of Gong as "one of a tribe of the Orcs, a goblin".

The term Orc does occur twice; once in an instance where Gandalf is trying to scare Bilbo by mentioning creatures of the wilderness "goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description," and again when the narrator mentions Orcs as nothing but large goblins, as well as in the Elvish name of Thorin's sword, Orcrist.

In The Lord of the Rings, Orc is used predominantly, and goblin appears mostly in the Hobbits' speech. The second volume of the novel, The Two Towers, contains passages where the more generic 'goblin' is used to describe Saruman's Uruk-hai as being different from the usual 'Orc':

There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men.[11]

And:

Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen.[12]

The "white badge" mentioned in the latter passage makes it clear that the beheaded goblin was one of the Uruk-hai. Tolkien writes that these bore a white Elf-rune with the value of "S" on their helmets.

Tolkien also wrote the following note, appearing in some editions of The Hobbit:

Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).

The original edition of The Hobbit and early drafts of The Lord of the Rings first used goblin everywhere and used hobgoblin for larger, more evil goblins.

The creature with one arm is an Orc and not a Goblin right?

I think he was refereed too as the albino giant goblin king.

A place to discuss the book and its relationship to the movie without dropping spoilers for the non-readers.

Ugh!! Again? I hate it when they make a book out of the movie, they always stink!

I disagree. I think a few have been done pretty well. People just have to let go of the idea that it'll be completely faithful to the book. I treat it as it's own story not as an adaptation of the book.

Checked and confirmed, the "Necromancer" referred to in The Hobbit is Sauron. He wasn't in Mordor at the time, he was further north.

MOVIE SPOILER, DO NOT READ ON: I thought it was a nice touch at the end of the movie when we see Smaug open his eye and it, eerily, echoes Sauron's eye in the LOTR movies.

I disagree. I think a few have been done pretty well. People just have to let go of the idea that it'll be completely faithful to the book. I treat it as it's own story not as an adaptation of the book.

I'm wondering if you read his post carefully.

I for one found it pleasantly humorous.

I just reread The Hobbit.

The necromancer mentioned countless times throughout the novel is definitely Sauron, He is described as having over taken lands "in the south" but as far north as the southern ends of the Mirkwood forest. After the battle of 5 armies, Gandalf tells Bilbo that he joined a council of White Wizards (curiously plural) and they drove him all the way back to his southern empire (presumably Mordor). Gandalf laments not getting the chance to destroy him entirely.

A preface in my version of The Hobbit explains our confusion. Orc and Goblin are interchangeable. It says that "orc" is the Hobbit word for Goblin, and thus why there are used back and forth.

The Great Goblin, or the Goblin King, is the big fat one killed in the caves in the mountain pass. He differs from Azog, who is the pale, one armed goblin shown in the movie. In the movie he has his arm cut off by Thorin and is out to get them the whole time for revenge. In the book it is explained that Thror's kin kill Azog at the battle at Moria. However, it is Azog's son who rallies the Goblin army and leads them into the battle of 5 armies. My suspicion is that this minor plot alteration was done to create a more immediate relationship between Thorin and Azog.

The orc/goblin thing is only confusing to those not paying attention. Nerds like me who have read the books 15 times don't have these problems. :geek:

The orc/goblin thing is only confusing to those not paying attention. Nerds like me who have read the books 15 times don't have these problems. :geek:

But, as usual, leave it to Tolkien to clear things up for us before you even dive into the text. He thought of everything

I'm questioning consistency. Trolls in the LOTR didn't say anything. Trolls, so far in the movie, talk a lot. What gives?

Different types of trolls? I mean, the Uruk-Hai were a breed of super orcs, but they're still orcs, or goblins. Cave Trolls in lord of the rings don't talk (I don't remember cave trolls in the books, to be honest) but perhaps forest/mountain trolls do. I haven't seen the movie yet, do the trolls in the Hobbit movie look the same?

Potential Game of Thrones spoiler.

Really geeky but I can't help but notice the similarities between stuff in The Hobbit and stuff in Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). I don't have the whole history of the word but George RR Martin uses the term "Warg" just like JRRT. Also there are shape shifters in The Hobbit and in SoIF. Terms like The Eyrie. Not that these terms aren't in the lexicon but in a similar genre . . .

Is there a link between the two authors? Are there homages to JRRT in SoIF?

Potential Game of Thrones spoiler.

(deleted spoilers)

Is there a link between the two authors? Are there homages to JRRT in SoIF?

Both draw heavily upon medieval terminology, though Tolkien likes to draw from Norse and Saxon (he was a major Beowulf scholar), while Martin prefers the more dirtier parts of feudal society (Machiavelli could read his books and nod in approval).

I'm almost through my re-read of the book. I forgot about Smaug's demise, kinda disappointed.

It's tempting to believe that Tolkien had created Middle Earth (and all of Arda) fully before writing any of his stories down. But the truth is that The Hobbit was told - and written - well before he had begun fleshing out most of the mythology. Therefore, there are quite a few inconsistencies and simplifications in the book that occasionally conflict with later works.

Jackson had to retrofit a lot of The Lord of the Rings into The Hobbit (note how the world gets weird when Bilbo puts on the Ring, and Gollum's multiple personality). He also pulled in a lot of the other works, such as "The Quest of Erebor" (from Unfinished Tales), in which the White Council and Gandalf's concerns that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is actually Sauron both appear.

In The Hobbit, Azog was an incredibly minor character who had already been killed. The Goblin King was the chief antagonist in the Misty Mountains. Orcs and Goblins were the same thing...kind of.

Yes, I'm a Tolkien geek. I've had that username you see there since I joined this site.

Potential Game of Thrones spoiler.

Really geeky but I can't help but notice the similarities between stuff in The Hobbit and stuff in Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). I don't have the whole history of the word but George RR Martin uses the term "Warg" just like JRRT. Also there are shape shifters in The Hobbit and in SoIF. Terms like The Eyrie. Not that these terms aren't in the lexicon but in a similar genre . . .

Is there a link between the two authors? Are there homages to JRRT in SoIF?

I suspect Martin is "inspired" by both Robin Hobb and Tolkien. There have been moments in ASoIF that I had to just shake my head and pray that certain similarities between Martin and Hobb's Farseer/Tawny trilogies were just coincidence.

Did Gandalf have relations with Belladonna Took? Is he Bilbo's dad?