@DCGoldPants Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I guess this makes me wonder. what's worse? your daughter being without awareness or her own existence, unable to swallow. or Saying that only when medical experts aren't around, that she is aware, and is trying to TALK to you...but nobody else? I mean, how can you take that to your grave also? If you're lying about something like that...I don't know. A lot of families across the country could be filled with false hope because 1 family isn't being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I don't think the parents are being dishonest. I think they are grasping at straws and that their beliefs (or should I say hopes) are flat out wrong, but I do not think that they are not being honest. They cling to whatever they can, and desperately hope for a miracle that is never going to come. I would probably do the same in their situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 to say she's conscious and trying to talk? I mean, that's really a major grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 It is a major grasp. But being in this horrible situation for so long, and after years of being manipulated by "advisors" with an agenda, they have lost all perspective. I can't imagine how hard it is. I had a similar situation with my own mother, who was in a coma after a car accident for a month before she died. We had begun to discuss, as a family, what measures would be appropriate, when the decision was taken away from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I say she could eat powdered donuts all day long.. (its as accurate as we know to the people that say she can't drink water).. There are a couple of nurses that say she could (icechips/jello) and a doctor that says he would have tried as the guardian litem (sp) but Michaels lawyer wouldnt let him try... Then the doctor says he doesnt believe she can even though he never tried... and says the nurses (plural) that said they did have no credible evidence.. I think this whole thing is based on a lack of credible evidence: Nothing about Paul, Luke, Proverbs etc. just on what the "people involved say". *** I would never want to live in this way *** disclaimer, but you put someone in a bed and give them no therapy or chance for 10+ years and you get what you predicted... its a self fulfilling prophesy kinda thing... I have given up on Terri and only hope others get the Will and she is used as a example on how NOT to treat someone for 15years... either do the therapy or killem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57781-2005Mar22.html Canton, Ohio: Did you try to give Terri thickened liquids? Did you interview any of the doctors or nurses who said they gave Terri jello or other foods? They said she ate it and enjoyed it. Dr. Jay Wolfson: there is no credible evidence to support any of those contentions. Baltimore, Md.: I am a family physician, and I really appreciate your clear-headed discussion of this issue here and in your recent interview on NPR. It is a welcome break from the nonsense, confusion, and at times, frank disinformation that has characterized much of the debate about this poor woman and her family. Can you please discuss your impressions on her responsiveness. You spent quite a bit of time with her. Does she respond as the family claims she does? Dr. Jay Wolfson: in the time i spent with her i was not able to observe or experience a consistent response. i talked to her, cajoled her, played music -- but there was random reflective actions -- no responses. though i sure wished that i could have found otherwise. Beltsville, Md.: I went to the Web site that Terri's parent's have on her situation. They say that much of what's said about her condition is false. She can eat on her own, she could get better with therapy. Why is there no common ground when it comes to the medical opinion of Terri's hope for recovery or whether she would benefit from having her feeding tube reinserted? Dr. Jay Wolfson: if she were given food, she would likely aspirate and either choke or develop an infection that would kill her. she does not eat or drink and she cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 It is amazing the different perceptions people have of this matter depending on what side of the issue they come from. I went and read a bunch of articles on WorldNetDaily.com to try to understand the opposing point of view, and came away from the reading with the impression that I was almost reading about some other case. It's kind of like the old evolution/creation science debate we had a couple of months ago. There is no room for common ground because both sides come from completely different perceptions of what the facts are, what credible sources of information are available, and so forth. It is remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Good Point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dah-Dee Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Court Rejects Schiavo Parents' Request 1 minute ago By ELIOTT C. McLAUGHLIN, Associated Press Writer ATLANTA - For the second time in less than a day, a federal appeals court Wednesday rejected a bid by Terri Schiavo's parents to have her feeding tube re-inserted. Florida lawmakers, meanwhile, debated another last-ditch effort to prolong her life. In a 10-2 decision, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) refused Bob and Mary Schindler's request for an "expedited rehearing" by the full court. A three-judge panel from the same court ruled against the family earlier Wednesday. The full court did not immediately give an explanation for its decision. The parents have vowed to take their fight to the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites), which has refused to get involved previously. Supporters of the parents grew increasingly dismayed by the developments, and 10 protesters were arrested outside Schiavo's hospice for trying to bring her water. The severely brain-damaged woman's mother pleaded, again, to keep her daughter alive. "When I close my eyes at night, all I can see is Terri's face in front of me, dying, starving to death," Mary Schindler said outside the hospice. "Please, someone out there, stop this cruelty. Stop the insanity. Please let my daughter live." Terri Schiavo has not received any nourishment since the tube was pulled Friday afternoon. By late Tuesday, Terri's eyes were sunken, her skin was parched and flaking and her lips and tongue were parched, said Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers. Doctors have said she could survive one to two weeks without the feeding tube. A lawyer for Michael Schiavo said he was "very pleased" by the initial appeals court ruling. But he worried that, as her parents ran out of options, either Gov. Jeb Bush or lawmakers might try again to take Terri Schiavo into their custody and circumvent years of court rulings that support the husband's position. He has argued that his wife has no hope of recovery and would want to die. "They have no more power than you or I or a person walking down the street to say we have the right to take Terri Schiavo," attorney George Felos said in a state court hearing. In Tallahassee, the state capital, Bush renewed his call for the Legislature to "spare Terri's life." A lawmaker said Wednesday was the Senate's last chance to pass a bill to keep Schiavo alive. Sen. Daniel Webster was scrambling to secure votes to pass a bill that would prohibit patients like Schiavo from being denied food and water if they didn't express their wishes in writing. A similar measure brought last week by Webster was defeated 21-16. Senate Democratic Leader Les Miller said the new bill faced a similar fate to one that was pushed through in 2003 to reconnect the tube six days after it was removed. "By the time the ink is dry on the governor's signature, it will be declared unconstitutional, just like it was before," Miller said. "So I don't see anything or any language that can persuade my vote." Meanwhile, President Bush (news - web sites) suggested that he and Congress had done their best to help the parents prolong Schiavo's life, and the White House said it has no further legal options. Link: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman&printer=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 10-2 vote. That's pretty definitive. The 11th Circuit is not exactly a hotbed of rabid liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dah-Dee Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 But hold on -- from CNN: New information suggests Schiavo's condition might have been misdiagnosed, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday afternoon. A neurologist who reviewed Schiavo's medical records for the state Department of Children and Families indicated that she is "most likely in a state of minimal consciousness," rather than the persistent vegetative state previous doctors have diagnosed, Bush said. "This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action," Bush said. The doctor reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the hospice, but was not able to personally examine her, state officials said. Link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by Dah-Dee But hold on -- from CNN: New information suggests Schiavo's condition might have been misdiagnosed, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday afternoon. A neurologist who reviewed Schiavo's medical records for the state Department of Children and Families indicated that she is "most likely in a state of minimal consciousness," rather than the persistent vegetative state previous doctors have diagnosed, Bush said. "This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action," Bush said. The doctor reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the hospice, but was not able to personally examine her, state officials said. Link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...........WHY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Oh please this getting really pathetic....at least they aren't lying again about Michael Schiavo "abusing his wife"....a 10-2 decision in a federal appeals court is puts the end to all this(unless of course Jeb and GW decide to try taking her into custody..if this happens I hope there is a huge backlash against the evangelical christians that are pushing this agenda) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingtiger1013 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by Funkyalligator Oh please this getting really pathetic....at least they aren't lying again about Michael Schiavo "abusing his wife"....a 10-2 decision in a federal appeals court is puts the end to all this(unless of course Jeb and GW decide to try taking her into custody..if this happens I hope there is a huge backlash against the evangelical christians that are pushing this agenda) Why? I know a lot of Catholics that are on her parents' side also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLadyRaven Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...........WHY? Because when you dont get your way -You b#tch and maon until you do - Learned from the Book of Terrell Owens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by Dah-Dee But hold on -- from CNN: New information suggests Schiavo's condition might have been misdiagnosed, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday afternoon. A neurologist who reviewed Schiavo's medical records for the state Department of Children and Families indicated that she is "most likely in a state of minimal consciousness," rather than the persistent vegetative state previous doctors have diagnosed, Bush said. "This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action," Bush said. The doctor reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the hospice, but was not able to personally examine her, state officials said. Link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html They can keep on coming up with last minute "new information" forever, I guess. Where was this person for the past 15 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by flyingtiger1013 Why? I know a lot of Catholics that are on her parents' side also. I'm Catholic, and most of the Catholics I know struggle with this but ultimately want her to have peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dah-Dee Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Again from CNN: The Florida Senate also turned back another last-ditch effort to prolong her life. The Senate bill would have prohibited patients like Schiavo from being denied food and water if they did not express their wishes in writing. The 21-18 vote came five days after her feeding tube was removed under court order. Similar efforts in the Legislature have failed in the past. Link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman .... but, from the same article: In Tallahassee, the state capital, Bush renewed his call for the Legislature to "spare Terri's life." The governor and the head of the state's social services agency also said they have filed a petition with a Pinellas County trial court seeking to take custody of Schiavo. It cites new allegations of neglect and challenges Schiavo's diagnosis as being in a persistent vegetative state based on the opinion of a neurologist working for the state. The doctor observed Schiavo at her bedside but did not conduct an examination of her. Bush and Department of Children & Families Secretary Lucy Hadi suggested they have authority to intervene on Schiavo's behalf regardless of the outcome of the bill in the Florida Legislature or a myriad of court decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 It's time to let this go. Really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by gbear Just saw this and thought it might prove interesting to some on here. It's the chat from the Wasintonpost today with her court appointed special guardian. It haas some interesting stuff about some of the misinformation out there currently. http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/05/nation_wolfson032305.htm She has actually had three separate quardians ad litem. The last was appointed by Jeb Bush, and thus if anything would be biased in favor of the parents. That GAL's 38 page report found that there was no showing of consciousness, that she was in persistent vegatative state with little or no hope of recovery, that she had been given due process, and that it appeared credible her wishes would be to pull the tube. The report is very thorough and objective in its approach and respects the positions of both sides as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by ColdnGrey Just because he moved on with his life, after 15 years, does not mean that he's still not duty bound to follow his wife's wishes. The fact is NO one knows what her wishes were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by Johnny Punani The fact is NO one knows what her wishes were. From the WP article quoted above: I also concluded that based on the same Florida laws and rules, the trier of fact appropriately determined that Terri had expressed, while she was competent, the intention never to be kept artificially alive under such circumstances. The evidence supporting this included competent legal evidence demonstrating that she personally expressed those intentions at the funerals of two family members who had been on life support -- so it was contextual. (Note: As far as I know "trier of fact" usually means "the jury", but maybe not in this case.) Aparantly, there's been testimony that she did express a desire not to be kept alive artificially, on, aparantly, two different occasions. Granted, it's not proof, but untill the Vulcan Mind Meld becomes admissable . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 didtnt the "doctor" say that in the article? the doctor that wasnt even allowed to test if she could swallow? It may be true but to have the same doctor dismiss the nurses based on hearsay he has a bit himself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by JimboDaMan My wife felt the same way, and I can understand why. But I asked her what if she really did tell him she wouldn't want this? Isn't he then obligated to show his respect to Terri by carrying out her wishes, no matter how hard? Because it would be so much easier for him to do as you said, just hand her over to the people willing to care for her. There seems to be absolutely nothing in it for him, except maybe honoring her in the only way left. I agree with you, I feel awful for the parents. The desperation they must feel is unimaginable. But they seem completely deluded as to the situation with Terri. Their daughter is gone. While I'm sure what remains behind is a comfort for them to hold, that's not reason enough to allow this to go on indefinitely. 15 years is enough. This is nothing but hearsay. Her husband doesn't have proof that she told him that. Also, if what darkladyraven said is true he has a motive for wanting her dead. Recently, there have been nurses who came forward and stated Michael Schiavo said to them "when is that b!tch gonna die?" "Is it possible to quicken her death?" when they were taking care of Terry Schiavo. If that is true Michael Schiavo doesn't have best interests of his ex wife in mind. Also, can you define what "gone" means? From what I've seen on film she doesn't look like she is in a vegetative state. She can react to her surroundings and is only fed through a tube. It's not like she is on life support or lying there in a coma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Originally posted by Larry From the WP article quoted above: (Note: As far as I know "trier of fact" usually means "the jury", but maybe not in this case.) Aparantly, there's been testimony that she did express a desire not to be kept alive artificially, on, aparantly, two different occasions. Granted, it's not proof, but untill the Vulcan Mind Meld becomes admissable . . . No, it's not. It's a reach based on what her husband said. So, then my point still holds. No one really knows if she said that or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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