War to Export Democracy may hurt our own..so says this conservative.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

You are hearing crickets because the idea that America is going the way of Nazi Germany is so ludicrous no one even knows where to begin. I know I don't. It's the silence that often follows behavior so absurd you are left completely speechless.

I mean, fascist? You are using this word why? Do you think the current administration is fascist?

Does the irony of the fact that you express your dissent on a daily basis in a public forum ever come up and slap you in the face?

:phone: Hello?.... :secret: It's for you... :paranoid: Reality calling. :hammer:

(Hey, I didn't want to get stuck in a rut with the usual smileys. :nutkick: )

I see somebody didn't read the article :doh:

Maybe you should spend some time reading things which are posted instead of posting things completely devoid of content.

I mean come on now, there are over 5000 words in this thread ALONE which presents a case of creeping fascism in the US, yet you think you are somehow in the just because of what?

Again, read the post topic and discuss, it's not that hard.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

I don't thinky anyone is trying to say America is going the way of Nazi Germany, and this is the second time you have tried to sidestep the main point of the article with that rationale.

What the article clearly says is that the general public is seemingly willing to give up liberties and freedoms in this country in the name of spreading freedom in Iraq, which is an irony in itself.

I think people will give up some freedoms and liberties on a temp basis if they believe it helps in times of national security. There is a historical basis for this as well. Lincoln curbed some freedoms and liberties during the civil war. You do want to call him a fascist?

I doubt it.

It's good to question the motives of the people in power but I feel that they are not trying to take liberties and freedoms away from the US public to create a fascist state.

What I believe is you have a government that is covering it's own arse in case another terrorist attack happens.

[Thiebear]

Hate to interrupt your "crush the quiet neocon party".

But who do you know that actually supporst the internment of Japanese? Or Muslims for that matter?

Who thinks that torture of a terrorist is a bad thing? I don't, torture of citizens picked up on the streets of Iraq = bad due to the unknown quatity of what it going on. But for those actively fighting against the troops and blowing up women and children. I got no issues with cutting off a finger.

What else?

Ohhh our military all over the world...

Your right, but we were IN Iraq already, just not as large of course. And we go back to the 17 Resolutions/No-fly-zone thing.

Anyone here for NOT going into the Sudan? Raise your hand.

anything else?

- extreme intolerance towards all oppositional and presumed oppositional groups, expressed through vicious terror, open violence and ruthless repression

Your kidding right? the article being written and passed around the country is in and of itself proof of the opposite. In this country you can have a signature that says:

The Moron saw his shadow: 4 more years of Bush...

Nice try though.. I totally respect your freedom of dissention.. enjoy.

[joe]

NoCalMike

I really enjoyed the article, not just for the obvious intellectual exercise it provided me to actually understand all of the nuance, but for support it gives my own theory that there is a huge difference between a conservative in the Barry Goldwater image and the Neoconservatives who are now running this country.

Is the extreme nationalism really a precursor to fascism as was seen in the rise of the Nazi party? Probably not. Certainly no more than the "America Love it or Leave it" Bumper stickers popular before the Tet offensive woke everyone up the the folly of the Vietnam Conflict. But there is a concern that a general infringement of personal freedom is likely to occur over the next few years, and care must be taken to prevent it.

Thanks for posting it.

And Bear, I do beleive that torturing a terrorist is a bad thing. I like the movie Dirty Harry, but prefer that actually cops do not act like that.

[NoCalMike]

And for the record, it isn't "torturing a terrorist" it is torturing people who may or may NOT be terrorists. It could be anyone from an actual suspect, to someone who was apprehended from their home on a "hot tip" A Terror suspect is not a Terrorist. It is someone who quite frankly is innocent until proven guilty, and it only adds more to the situation when people are being held for a couple of years without even being charged with anything.

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by joe

NoCalMike

I really enjoyed the article, not just for the obvious intellectual exercise it provided me to actually understand all of the nuance, but for support it gives my own theory that there is a huge difference between a conservative in the Barry Goldwater image and the Neoconservatives who are now running this country.

Is the extreme nationalism really a precursor to fascism as was seen in the rise of the Nazi party? Probably not. Certainly no more than the "America Love it or Leave it" Bumper stickers popular before the Tet offensive woke everyone up the the folly of the Vietnam Conflict. But there is a concern that a general infringement of personal freedom is likely to occur over the next few years, and care must be taken to prevent it.

Thanks for posting it.

And Bear, I do beleive that torturing a terrorist is a bad thing. I like the movie Dirty Harry, but prefer that actually cops do not act like that.

Your Welcome.

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

And for the record, it isn't "torturing a terrorist" it is torturing people who may or may NOT be terrorists. It could be anyone from an actual suspect, to someone who was apprehended from their home on a "hot tip" A Terror suspect is not a Terrorist. It is someone who quite frankly is innocent until proven guilty, and it only adds more to the situation when people are being held for a couple of years without even being charged with anything.

There is no innocent until proven guilty on the battlefield. If your caught fighting against us you get shot. If you live, or get lucky enough NOT to be shot and surrender you are now a prisoner of war. The Geneva convention does not cover *out of uniform* combatants that attack civilians...

If you are found to be from outside the country fighting inside the country and killing civilians.. *putting on my best foxworthy voice* you might be a terrorist.

Like is said: If your from Iraq in Iraq and not currently trying to blow someone up: Yes, your country can prosecute you anyway they want.

If your from Syria and caught trying to blow up a police station recruitment line you don't qualify.

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Thiebear

There is no innocent until proven guilty on the battlefield. If your caught fighting against us you get shot. If you live, or get lucky enough NOT to be shot and surrender you are now a prisoner of war. The Geneva convention does not cover *out of uniform* combatants that attack civilians...

If you are found to be from outside the country fighting inside the country and killing civilians.. *putting on my best foxworthy voice* you might be a terrorist.

Like is said: If your from Iraq in Iraq and not currently trying to blow someone up: Yes, your country can prosecute you anyway they want.

If your from Syria and caught trying to blow up a police station recruitment line you don't qualify.

Yeah, I'm afraid you are missing the point here.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Thiebear

There is no innocent until proven guilty on the battlefield. If your caught fighting against us you get shot. If you live, or get lucky enough NOT to be shot and surrender you are now a prisoner of war. The Geneva convention does not cover *out of uniform* combatants that attack civilians...

If you are found to be from outside the country fighting inside the country and killing civilians.. *putting on my best foxworthy voice* you might be a terrorist.

Like is said: If your from Iraq in Iraq and not currently trying to blow someone up: Yes, your country can prosecute you anyway they want.

If your from Syria and caught trying to blow up a police station recruitment line you don't qualify.

The only problem is that the "battlefield" could be anywhere in the current "war", if that's what you want to call it.

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by codeorama

The only problem is that the "battlefield" could be anywhere in the current "war", if that's what you want to call it.

Right. An Iraqi citizen can be sitting at home eating dinner with his family, and he can be plucked out of there, and thrown in jail because he fits a description, and then sit there for over a year without any charges being filed. This would classify said person as a suspect, not a terrorist. The US Military should never torture prisoners, but I can get how some people would feel less then sympathetic about a CONVICTED TERRORIST being tortured, however a SUSPECT is not a guilty person, especially someone who has not been charged.

[Thiebear]

how do find a "convicted" terrorist?

who convicted them? the same group that you say grabs innocent iraqi's with miss-spelled names watching oprah?

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Thiebear

how do find a "convicted" terrorist?

who convicted them? the same group that you say grabs innocent iraqi's with miss-spelled names watching oprah?

I don't even know how to respond to that...:laugh:

[codeorama]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

Right. An Iraqi citizen can be sitting at home eating dinner with his family, and he can be plucked out of there, and thrown in jail because he fits a description, and then sit there for over a year without any charges being filed. This would classify said person as a suspect, not a terrorist. The US Military should never torture prisoners, but I can get how some people would feel less then sympathetic about a CONVICTED TERRORIST being tortured, however a SUSPECT is not a guilty person, especially someone who has not been charged.

I'm not even talking about Iraq.

I'm talking about right here at home.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by codeorama

I'm not even talking about Iraq.

I'm talking about right here at home.

Code. When that starts happening we have a problem. Until then you are being had by the fearmongering tin foil hat club. But guess what... If it does start happening we have a well armed population that will not put up with it. That's why we have a right to keep and bear arms. Remember that Nazi Germany banned the right to bear arms.

http://www.jpfo.org/deathgc.htm

The people that have been picked up here had a LOT of evidence against them and were considered to great a risk to let them walk the streets. Otherwise they would have been kept under observation in the hope of gaining more intel.

But you know what realy kills me? People comparing Bush to Hitler. Let me share two historical quotes....

"It is thus necessary that the individual shall finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of this nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole; that pride and conceitedness, the feeling that the individual...is superior, so far from being merely laughable, involve great dangers for the existence of the community that is a nation; that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual; and that the higher interests involved in the life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual." - Adolf Hitler

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Rodham Clinton

[joe]

Mike, buddy, read those two quotes, they have absolutely nothing in common.

Nobody here is comparing Bush to Hitler. I, frankly, have never read that from any any credible commentator. I suggest that you show Senator Clinton the same courtesy. She is, after all, a U.S. Senator and should be given some respect, if for no other reason than the office itself.

And please hold your comments regarding my obvious pinko leftist leanings. I am not a fan of either Clinton, neither the Senator nor the former President.

[chomerics]

Back to the topic at hand. . .

Does anyone want to tackle the article? I think Joe has the best response so far, with this.

Is the extreme nationalism really a precursor to fascism as was seen in the rise of the Nazi party? Probably not. Certainly no more than the "America Love it or Leave it" Bumper stickers popular before the Tet offensive woke everyone up the the folly of the Vietnam Conflict. But there is a concern that a general infringement of personal freedom is likely to occur over the next few years, and care must be taken to prevent it.

This article and many popping up on the net do warrent discussion. Just because you don't like the meat of it, doesn't mean that the premise does not exist. We can not sit back and ignore things that are happening simply because we don't like what is going on. It leads to the mindset which gave rise to the fascism found in Nazi Germany.

Personally, I think when you infringe on a societies social freedoms, in the name of "national security" it is a very bad idea. It can lead to the police state, the rise of nationalism, fundamentalism and ignorance which allowed Nazi Germany to thrive. You do have many similarities between the post 9-11 America and Nazi Germany.

Here are a few.

1. The "us vs them", or good vs evil mentality which in my opinion leads to racism.

2. The rise of corporatism in federal programs, ie the federal government allowing industry to make the rules which govern themselves.

3. The supression of any type of opposing voice post 9-11 to be treasonist and "Un-American". Personally, this is the one that disgusts me the most. Is there any MORE Un-American belief then to stomp out an opposing voice with violent threats and such vitriol? I mean our founding fathers based debate as one of the foundations of our government. They thought that the only correct decision was one in which all sides were considered, hence you get great things like the seperation of power et all.

4. The advent of bringing religion into the federal government post 9-11 as if "god" backed our side and was against the "evil doers". This brings about a mindset of not only we can do no wrong, but that the almighty is somehow backing us to go to war.

5. The distruction of the media being the "federal watchdog" part of sociey. There was a time when the media would keep the government in check, but after 9-11, the media completely ignored any facts and instead acted a a platform to promote the propaganda put forth by the federal government.

IMHO, I think that all of the things I listed above lead to the mindset put forth in Nazi Germany, and if things don't change, we can end up down the same path.

Discussions anyone?

[FBChick]

Originally posted by joe

Nobody here is comparing Bush to Hitler. I, frankly, have never read that from any any credible commentator. I suggest that you show Senator Clinton the same courtesy. She is, after all, a U.S. Senator and should be given some respect, if for no other reason than the office itself.

But in fact that IS the what this article seems to be implying, at least until the caveat which is saves for the end.

The whole article is an overwordy alarmist in nature jab at *gasp* comparing Nazi Germany and Hitler, to today's political structure and it's ability to vote in Bush and allow the war in Iraq.

But the article fails to point out where the real sentiment is coming from. It's fear.. not facism. Those neoconservatives have existed since the dawn of time, they'll be here till the end of time. What makes them scarier is the fact that with todays technology, they have a much larger stage to proclaim from and can make themselves sound louder then they really are. But it doesn't mean we are on the brink of Facism.

What would we be better compared to is Pearl Harbor. We have sat in our isolated security for far to long, not paying attention to the outside world as we felt uneffected by it's trials and tribulations. Then comes 9/11 and wakes the sleeping bear, and like a mother protecting her cubs, we have raised our claws and felt compelled to strike, to safe guard our nest. The biggest difference was this time there was no war to jump into. So instead we created it.. the war on terror and we seek our revenge by ridding the world of the evil until we can sleep again at night.

We've learned some lessons.. there's no internment camps, and we won't split Iraq in half, nor will we occupy her any longer then we must. But we still fall short... the internment camps have been replaced by the Homeland security and it's laws. Our go it alone attitude has leave a stale taste in the mouth of many forgieners, instead of being the saviors this time.

Find ways to dispel the fear.. make people understand that we are not any more vunerable with our freedoms, or at the very least that our freedoms should be worth the vunerabilities we do have, instead of trying to insight more fear. It's too chicken little and will get little to no support. But all this goes away when the fear dies. We've done it time and time again... return from our fear induced mania... why can't we trust it will happen again?

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by joe

Mike, buddy, read those two quotes, they have absolutely nothing in common.

Nobody here is comparing Bush to Hitler. I, frankly, have never read that from any any credible commentator. I suggest that you show Senator Clinton the same courtesy. She is, after all, a U.S. Senator and should be given some respect, if for no other reason than the office itself.

And please hold your comments regarding my obvious pinko leftist leanings. I am not a fan of either Clinton, neither the Senator nor the former President.

If you cant see the similarity of those two quotes I suggest you take a reading comprehension course. But i'm a nice guy so I'll help you out. Maybe less words and more focus will help.

"the higher interests involved in the life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual." - Adolf Hitler

We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Rodham Clinton

They are both preaching the socialist agenda. That's socialist as in "National Socialist German Workers Party" otherwise known as the Nazi Party.

No. Nobody in this thread called Bush, Hitler but an article titled "Hunger for Dictatorship" raises some issues at a time when many people (including some on this board HAVE compared Bush to Hitler). The second article ABSOLUTELY makes this claim.

With all of Germany's cultural strength, brutality won out; the same analysis can apply to America. Hitler never won clear majorities; yet once he was in power, he crushed all dissent. Consider the parallels to the fateful election of 2000. Hitler's ascent to power was facilitated by the political elites; again, note the similarities to the last two years. Hitler took advantage of the Reichstag fire to totally change the shape of German institutions and culture; think of 9/11 as a close parallel. Hitler was careful to give the impression of always operating under legal cover, even for the most massive offenses against humanity; note again the similarity of a pseudo-legal shield for the actions of the American fascists. One can go on and on in this vein.

These words are the words of a moron. The Reichstag fire and 9/11 have NOTHING in common unless you are warped enough to think we attacked ourselves that day since writers such as Klaus P. Fischer feel that most likely the Nazis started the fire themselves. And only a complete loon would think that America is commiting "massive offenses against humanity".

It's all a fear tactic. Otherwise known as FUD. (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). There is one more word that describes this so called "creeping fascism"; because as long as you can talk about it in the open, without fear for your life and liberties, it's really all "bullsh!t".

[Thiebear]

We have this thing called the ALL "Volunteer" Army. Our Army is led by us and the enlisted are the majority of us.

We have rules against housing us and the use of us INSIDE the United States.. To say our Army can be used against their own families is rediculous. For that to happen we would have to break so many rules to include the President/Congress/Judicial checks and balances. The term limits and the 2nd amendment.

Our society goes back and forth like a pendulum... We sometimes go to the far right, sometimes to the far left and mostly somewhere in between. Our children Always seem to do the right thing and the previous generation always says they wont...

The only thing you have to fear is fear itself. Everything else fixes itself with Freedom of the Press and the ability to call "our" President a Moron in print, on the internet and on T.V..

We got the United Nations also right? Nato? The new European Union that can pool its resources and like France recently stated. Bush was right and they want to help us now in the affairs of the world..

It's all good!

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by chomerics

Back to the topic at hand. . .

Does anyone want to tackle the article? I think Joe has the best response so far, with this.

This article and many popping up on the net do warrent discussion. Just because you don't like the meat of it, doesn't mean that the premise does not exist. We can not sit back and ignore things that are happening simply because we don't like what is going on. It leads to the mindset which gave rise to the fascism found in Nazi Germany.

Personally, I think when you infringe on a societies social freedoms, in the name of "national security" it is a very bad idea. It can lead to the police state, the rise of nationalism, fundamentalism and ignorance which allowed Nazi Germany to thrive. You do have many similarities between the post 9-11 America and Nazi Germany.

Here are a few.

1. The "us vs them", or good vs evil mentality which in my opinion leads to racism.

2. The rise of corporatism in federal programs, ie the federal government allowing industry to make the rules which govern themselves.

3. The supression of any type of opposing voice post 9-11 to be treasonist and "Un-American". Personally, this is the one that disgusts me the most. Is there any MORE Un-American belief then to stomp out an opposing voice with violent threats and such vitriol? I mean our founding fathers based debate as one of the foundations of our government. They thought that the only correct decision was one in which all sides were considered, hence you get great things like the seperation of power et all.

4. The advent of bringing religion into the federal government post 9-11 as if "god" backed our side and was against the "evil doers". This brings about a mindset of not only we can do no wrong, but that the almighty is somehow backing us to go to war.

5. The distruction of the media being the "federal watchdog" part of sociey. There was a time when the media would keep the government in check, but after 9-11, the media completely ignored any facts and instead acted a a platform to promote the propaganda put forth by the federal government.

IMHO, I think that all of the things I listed above lead to the mindset put forth in Nazi Germany, and if things don't change, we can end up down the same path.

Discussions anyone?

1) The terrorists are the ones with the us vs them mentality. They are the ones who want to kill us.

2) Under Nazi rule, the government had strict control of all industry. You have your facts wrong, in fact you have them flipped.

3) Am I wrong or did you just voice your desent? Were you violently threatened? Michael Moore made millions of dollars doing it. Is he in prison? This is one of the looniest arguments you can make. What you don't like is that I ALSO have a right to express MY opinion.

4) I'm not big on holy wars and bush screwed up when he first called the war on terror a crusade. I think that was more a result of the common use of the word that we have adopted in modern times. Since then, Bush has explicitly said on many occasions that his faith is what he relies on for personal strength. There have always been references to god supporting our cause. There is even a song about it: "God Bless America". It's hardly something new and should not be surprising to anyone.

5) You have beat this dead horse to a pulp. The same media you claim has been destroyed as a federal watchdog tried to use forged documents to discredit Bush during an election. The same media you claim acted as a platform for government propaganda, falsely used the 9/11 report to deny Saddams contacts with Al Qaeda and his general support of terrorism. The same media that loudly proclaimed the Duelfer Report concluded there were no WMD also failed to report it's conclusion that Saddam was using the OFF program to undemine sanctions with the intent of restarting his WMD programs. News flash for those of you who just arrived on this planet... EVERYONE thought Saddam still had his WMD, democrats and republicans alike.

Your entire argument that America going the way of Nazi Germany is FUD.

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

Your entire argument that America going the way of Nazi Germany is FUD.

Actually I'd say FUD describes the Bush Administrations drum beat to war.

[Prosperity]

Watch Fox News and you will notice some scary things. They legitimize guests who have no problem arresting and detaining citizens who are suspected terrorists without even so much a trial. They want to dismantle our judicial system and there isn't even an outrage.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by FBChick

But in fact that IS the what this article seems to be implying, at least until the caveat which is saves for the end.

The whole article is an overwordy alarmist in nature jab at *gasp* comparing Nazi Germany and Hitler, to today's political structure and it's ability to vote in Bush and allow the war in Iraq.

But the article fails to point out where the real sentiment is coming from. It's fear.. not facism. Those neoconservatives have existed since the dawn of time, they'll be here till the end of time. What makes them scarier is the fact that with todays technology, they have a much larger stage to proclaim from and can make themselves sound louder then they really are. But it doesn't mean we are on the brink of Facism.

What would we be better compared to is Pearl Harbor. We have sat in our isolated security for far to long, not paying attention to the outside world as we felt uneffected by it's trials and tribulations. Then comes 9/11 and wakes the sleeping bear, and like a mother protecting her cubs, we have raised our claws and felt compelled to strike, to safe guard our nest. The biggest difference was this time there was no war to jump into. So instead we created it.. the war on terror and we seek our revenge by ridding the world of the evil until we can sleep again at night.

We've learned some lessons.. there's no internment camps, and we won't split Iraq in half, nor will we occupy her any longer then we must. But we still fall short... the internment camps have been replaced by the Homeland security and it's laws. Our go it alone attitude has leave a stale taste in the mouth of many forgieners, instead of being the saviors this time.

Find ways to dispel the fear.. make people understand that we are not any more vunerable with our freedoms, or at the very least that our freedoms should be worth the vunerabilities we do have, instead of trying to insight more fear. It's too chicken little and will get little to no support. But all this goes away when the fear dies. We've done it time and time again... return from our fear induced mania... why can't we trust it will happen again?

Nice post. I dont completely agree with everything you say (IMO France, Germany, Russia, and the UN had dubious reasons for opposing us, making it their failure not ours) but your opinions are well grounded.

I have often heard anti-war, anti-Bush people use the term mobocracy to describe the pro war crowd. But mobs are driven by fanatical words, hatred, and fear. It seems to me that comparing America to Nazi Germany is an attempt to incite a mob mentality.

People like chomerics don't seem to understand that dissent and rebelion can be a good thing or the wrong thing. We are under assault, not just by al Qaeda, but by those who agree with them and those who would use them to attack us. Some of us believe that it's the wrong time for dissent. That does not make us Nazis or Fascists.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

Actually I'd say FUD describes the Bush Administrations drum beat to war.

How does that explain all of the democrats including Clinton who for years said the same things about Saddam?

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

How does that explain all of the democrats including Clinton who for years said the same things about Saddam?

Talk is cheap in Washington DC. Bush ordered bombs to drop and cities such as Falluja to be leveled, not Clinton. Also, it's not like when CLinton said this, liberals were all following behind him ready to go to war with Iraq, I am talking about voters, not policticians.