NoCalMike Posted February 8, 2005 Author Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by Mad Mike People like chomerics don't seem to understand that dissent and rebelion can be a good thing or the wrong thing. We are under assault, not just by al Qaeda, but by those who agree with them and those who would use them to attack us. Some of us believe that it's the wrong time for dissent. That does not make us Nazis or Fascists. Dissent is hardly ever the wrong thing. That doesn't mean the people that are dissenting are right about everything, obviously they aren't, but to say "it is the wrong time to dissent" is a foolish statement, and feeds the beast that took up to 18 months after 9/11 to kill. Dissent is a good thing, and today's anti-war crowd is rather tame and nice compared to the vietnam era. Troops aren't coming home being called baby killers and being spat on right off the planes. Sure, protests are held, but mostly at major events in order to show not everyone falls in line and/or agrees with Bush's policies. There is nothing wrong with that, EVER. Hell I didn't see many conservatives angry and confused as to why a sitting President was being hounded about Monica Lewisnky, even though it was no doubt a distraction to more important things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps_skins Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 I don't want to budd in, but I have a few thoughts to add. I don't think that you can compare Nazi Germany to the current US. But why is it so outrageous or even unthinkable to worry about warning signs? Every society probably experiences moments of weakness or extremism. I'm not saying we're in it now but there are always threats to Democracies. I believe we all want the same thing in the end, but the current partisan bickering has hardened the fronts so much that neither side can see any good in the other side's arguments. And it's true, being able to voice dissent shows that it's not comparable. Unfortunately, you won't be able to recognize this kind of problem until it's too late either. Doesn't mean we have to walk around with tin hats, but keeping an eye open doesn't make you a conspiracy loon. In my opinion, it makes you a guard of Democracy and Freedom. And it does not empower an enemy if they see dissent within the US. If that's the case, then they'll find any reason to either proclaim our evilness or our weakness. But what's more important, that's not what a Democracy is about. If it takes a totalitarian state to defeat Terror or whatever, then I don't want to be part of it. Just my opinion!! On a side-note, the NSDAP had a grip on anything once they were in power. What's interesting is that the industry (very few large corporations at the time) were one of the biggest contributors / sponsors that got the Nazi's in power. That's of course not comparable to the situation here, but it's an interesting note to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 8, 2005 Author Share Posted February 8, 2005 caps_skins, good post man. Oh and these discussions are open to everyone on the board, don't ever feel you are "butting in" You are as welcome as anyone else, well besides Cowboys fans(j/k LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by Liberty Watch Fox News and you will notice some scary things. They legitimize guests who have no problem arresting and detaining citizens who are suspected terrorists without even so much a trial. They want to dismantle our judicial system and there isn't even an outrage. I refer you to the seized al Qaeda training manual in which terrorists are taught to exploit our judicial process for the success of their operations. Maybe that will explain the lack of outrage. The fact is our judicial system was never ment to handle forign fighters and people who have declaired war on the US. Nothing about our judicial system has been dismantled, we have simply drawn a line and said on this side it is a military matter, and on that side it is a civil or criminal matter. And there is a very good reason for it. We tried treating terrorism as a criminal matter for years... IT FAILED. And while we are talking about FOX News; yes they lean to the right but they are also fair. Just the other day I saw some FOX News panelists critisizing FOX News reporters for not disclosing contacts with the whitehouse over the presidents speech. How often do you see CBS critisize it's own reporters? And please don't act like there are no voices of dissent on FOX. They are on all of the time. Watch some of the panel based shows like newswatch. (there is another one even better but I forget the name - maybe somone can help me out, they have a woman from PBS I think) Everyone gets equal billing and a fair chance to make their point and all sides are well represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Talk is cheap in Washington DC. Bush ordered bombs to drop and cities such as Falluja to be leveled, not Clinton. Also, it's not like when Clinton said this, liberals were all following behind him ready to go to war with Iraq, I am talking about voters, not policticians. Get out of your fantasy world. Clinton dropped tons of bombs and cruise missiles all over the world including Afghanistan and Iraq. And we did NOT "level" Falluja. If we had you would know it. We killed a whole bunch of terrorists at great threat to american lives in order to minimize civilian casualties and damage when we could have flattened the whole place. Comments like these show just how out of touch you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike caps_skins, good post man. Oh and these discussions are open to everyone on the board, don't ever feel you are "butting in" You are as welcome as anyone else, well besides Cowboys fans(j/k LOL) You know, his was a good post. It is reasonable to keep one's eyes open. I just think people like you are obsessed and that's not healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by caps_skins I don't want to budd in, but I have a few thoughts to add. I don't think that you can compare Nazi Germany to the current US. But why is it so outrageous or even unthinkable to worry about warning signs? Every society probably experiences moments of weakness or extremism. I'm not saying we're in it now but there are always threats to Democracies. I believe we all want the same thing in the end, but the current partisan bickering has hardened the fronts so much that neither side can see any good in the other side's arguments. And it's true, being able to voice dissent shows that it's not comparable. Unfortunately, you won't be able to recognize this kind of problem until it's too late either. Doesn't mean we have to walk around with tin hats, but keeping an eye open doesn't make you a conspiracy loon. In my opinion, it makes you a guard of Democracy and Freedom. And it does not empower an enemy if they see dissent within the US. If that's the case, then they'll find any reason to either proclaim our evilness or our weakness. But what's more important, that's not what a Democracy is about. If it takes a totalitarian state to defeat Terror or whatever, then I don't want to be part of it. Just my opinion!! On a side-note, the NSDAP had a grip on anything once they were in power. What's interesting is that the industry (very few large corporations at the time) were one of the biggest contributors / sponsors that got the Nazi's in power. That's of course not comparable to the situation here, but it's an interesting note to keep in mind. Good post. I may not agree with everything you say but it is a reasonable argument. I just want to say that it's not totalitarian for everyone (at least a good majority which is the best you can hope for in a democracy) to agree to work together to fight a common enemy. War is more than guns and killing, it's a battle of will. If you can convince your enemy that he has no chance of winning he will usualy quit sooner and it saves more lives all around. But if he believes that he can use the dissent within your own ranks to wear you down and beat you in the end, it costs more lives and can cost you the war. That's why I say dissent can be a bad thing. The dissenter may have the best intentions but the result can be a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps_skins Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by Mad Mike Good post. I may not agree with everything you say but it is a reasonable argument. I just want to say that it's not totalitarian for everyone (at least a good majority which is the best you can hope for in a democracy) to agree to work together to fight a common enemy. War is more than guns and killing, it's a battle of will. If you can convince your enemy that he has no chance of winning he will usualy quit sooner and it saves more lives all around. But if he believes that he can use the dissent within your own ranks to wear you down and beat you in the end, it costs more lives and can cost you the war. That's why I say dissent can be a bad thing. The dissenter may have the best intentions but the result can be a disaster. I can see your point! I guess society needs both sides of the fence to find the best / most effective way to get us through!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Mad Mike Get out of your fantasy world. Clinton dropped tons of bombs and cruise missiles all over the world including Afghanistan and Iraq. And we did NOT "level" Falluja. If we had you would know it. We killed a whole bunch of terrorists at great threat to american lives in order to minimize civilian casualties and damage when we could have flattened the whole place. Comments like these show just how out of touch you are. Right, and the Green Party along with Nader, was ON CLINTON's A$$ about it too. So don't give me this "no one cared when Clinton did it" bunk. Yes sir, we did level Falluja, and there are several inqueries and investigations currently going on regarding the Falluja operation. You are the one out of touch. I am not saying we leveled all of Iraq or even all of Baghdad, but the Falluja operation alone was shady operaitons and pretty much a carpet bombing campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Mad Mike You know, his was a good post. It is reasonable to keep one's eyes open. I just think people like you are obsessed and that's not healthy. I am no more obsessed then the GOP was with Clinton's sex-life. I work full-time, have a gf, collect movies as a hobby and am going to start my second year of college pretty soon. I have plenty of stuff going on that keeps my mind off this stuff at times. However I am at work, and sometimes the sheer bordeom drives me to these discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Right, and the Green Party along with Nader, was ON CLINTON's A$$ about it too. So don't give me this "no one cared when Clinton did it" bunk. Yes sir, we did level Falluja, and there are several inqueries and investigations currently going on regarding the Falluja operation. You are the one out of touch. I am not saying we leveled all of Iraq or even all of Baghdad, but the Falluja operation alone was shady operaitons and pretty much a carpet bombing campaign. NO. We did NOT carpet bomb Falluja. That is a lie. No one in their right mind is claiming otherwise. Do you even know what carpet bombing is? Do you have a clue? Because it wouldn't take an investigation to know what happened, the whole world would know it. There's these things called satellites... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/fallujah-imagery.htm I did a search. It seems we hit a hospital with a bomb that went astray. I'm sure it was by choice in your america the evil mind but that is another argument. Don't go spouting off lies here. if you are going to make such outragious claims back it up with links to credible news sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 We spend 1-2 million dollars PER bomb just so we no longer need to carpet anything... No other country does this but us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Mad Mike NO. We did NOT carpet bomb Falluja. That is a lie. No one in their right mind is claiming otherwise. Do you even know what carpet bombing is? Do you have a clue? Because it wouldn't take an investigation to know what happened, the whole world would know it. There's these things called satellites... Don't go spouting off lies here. if you are going to make such outragious claims back it up with links to credible news sources. Seems you need to do some better researching..... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/30/falluja.residents/ Falluja 'a horror' after U.S.-led offensive Long road ahead for residents of shattered city From CNN Producer Arwa Damon Wednesday, December 1, 2004 Posted: 2:38 AM EST (0738 GMT) An aid worker looks at a debris-filled street in Falluja. The Red Crescent is housing more than 100 residents. FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- Mahmoud Zubari and his family fled their home in Falluja after it was bombed and his 13-year-old son was killed. Zubari, his wife and their remaining eight children, ages 2 to 16, spent the next 20 days in the house of a friend while the U.S.-led onslaught to drive out insurgents in the city got under way. Last week, the family was picked up by the Iraqi Red Crescent, under Marine escort, and taken to the humanitarian group's compound in the city. Tuesday, the family returned to the home they took sanctuary in. "All the wealth will not bring back my son, but now I have to think of the future for the rest of my children," said Zubari's wife, Selma. "What will become of us?" That is a sentiment shared by many residents of the shattered city, which remains under curfew and where pockets of fighting continue to rage. Some homes in the city have begun posting signs in both Arabic and English that read, "Family inside." The Red Crescent compound houses more than 100 residents who became stranded there after a 24-hour curfew was put back in place last week by U.S. forces in eastern Falluja. Marine commanders had previously implemented a curfew between 3 p.m. and 7 a.m. Fuad Kubaysi, one of those staying at the Red Crescent compound, said, "What has happened to Falluja is a horror beyond anything imaginable. We don't want it anymore. Let them have it. Let whomever wants it have it. We cannot ever call this city home again." Red Crescent volunteer Sabri Abd Almalek said the restrictions imposed by the Marines are hindering their humanitarian efforts to bring relief to families throughout the city. "We are stuck here," he said. "We came here to help the people, treat the sick, and they won't let us leave -- only when we have permission." The first Red Crescent convoy arrived in the city Friday and began distributing food and medical supplies. But the round-the-clock curfew has sharply limited those efforts. Marine Col. Craig Tucker, the commanding officer of Regimental Combat Team 7, said the curfew was reimposed because of sporadic fighting throughout the eastern sector of the city and continued security concerns. What has happened to Falluja is a horror beyond anything imaginable ... We cannot ever call this city home again. -- Fuad Kubaysi, Falluja resident The Red Crescent is allowed to work with Marine escort. Marines are escorting and helping the group identify families in need and provide them with food, water and medical supplies. Women and children who want to leave the city are escorted out. Military-age men have to be screened before they are escorted home or out of the city. Lt. Col. Michael Ramos, a battalion commander with the combat team in charge of northeastern Falluja, said Marines have so far identified 20 families in his sector, but there may be up to 50. He said families and men who passed the screening and wanted to return to their homes in the city would have their homes first searched for weapons and possible insurgents who might have taken sanctuary in them. The homes would then be marked for food and water distribution. As for Zubari, he has been told he will receive compensation for his home being destroyed. In addition to losing his 13-year-old son, he said, his brother was killed -- and according to men in the neighborhood, he was buried in the garden of a nearby house. Oh yeah, but "a bomb just went astray and hit a hospital" surely.. You were right about one thing, I shouldn't have used the phrase "carpet bombing" I got a little carried away there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 OK Mike, where did you get Carpet bombing in that story... Yes we asked the citizens to leave because we were going to attack.. But where did you read that we dropped: Daisy Cutters and other 500+pd bombs on any of the houses as opposed to trying to hit each individual target.. You do know the definition of carpet bombing right? Your just posting the: other side though right ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Seems you need to do some better researching..... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/30/falluja.residents/ Falluja 'a horror' after U.S.-led offensive Long road ahead for residents of shattered city From CNN Producer Arwa Damon Wednesday, December 1, 2004 Posted: 2:38 AM EST (0738 GMT) An aid worker looks at a debris-filled street in Falluja. The Red Crescent is housing more than 100 residents. FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- Mahmoud Zubari and his family fled their home in Falluja after it was bombed and his 13-year-old son was killed. Zubari, his wife and their remaining eight children, ages 2 to 16, spent the next 20 days in the house of a friend while the U.S.-led onslaught to drive out insurgents in the city got under way. Last week, the family was picked up by the Iraqi Red Crescent, under Marine escort, and taken to the humanitarian group's compound in the city. Tuesday, the family returned to the home they took sanctuary in. "All the wealth will not bring back my son, but now I have to think of the future for the rest of my children," said Zubari's wife, Selma. "What will become of us?" That is a sentiment shared by many residents of the shattered city, which remains under curfew and where pockets of fighting continue to rage. Some homes in the city have begun posting signs in both Arabic and English that read, "Family inside." The Red Crescent compound houses more than 100 residents who became stranded there after a 24-hour curfew was put back in place last week by U.S. forces in eastern Falluja. Marine commanders had previously implemented a curfew between 3 p.m. and 7 a.m. Fuad Kubaysi, one of those staying at the Red Crescent compound, said, "What has happened to Falluja is a horror beyond anything imaginable. We don't want it anymore. Let them have it. Let whomever wants it have it. We cannot ever call this city home again." Red Crescent volunteer Sabri Abd Almalek said the restrictions imposed by the Marines are hindering their humanitarian efforts to bring relief to families throughout the city. "We are stuck here," he said. "We came here to help the people, treat the sick, and they won't let us leave -- only when we have permission." The first Red Crescent convoy arrived in the city Friday and began distributing food and medical supplies. But the round-the-clock curfew has sharply limited those efforts. Marine Col. Craig Tucker, the commanding officer of Regimental Combat Team 7, said the curfew was reimposed because of sporadic fighting throughout the eastern sector of the city and continued security concerns. What has happened to Falluja is a horror beyond anything imaginable ... We cannot ever call this city home again. -- Fuad Kubaysi, Falluja resident The Red Crescent is allowed to work with Marine escort. Marines are escorting and helping the group identify families in need and provide them with food, water and medical supplies. Women and children who want to leave the city are escorted out. Military-age men have to be screened before they are escorted home or out of the city. Lt. Col. Michael Ramos, a battalion commander with the combat team in charge of northeastern Falluja, said Marines have so far identified 20 families in his sector, but there may be up to 50. He said families and men who passed the screening and wanted to return to their homes in the city would have their homes first searched for weapons and possible insurgents who might have taken sanctuary in them. The homes would then be marked for food and water distribution. As for Zubari, he has been told he will receive compensation for his home being destroyed. In addition to losing his 13-year-old son, he said, his brother was killed -- and according to men in the neighborhood, he was buried in the garden of a nearby house. Oh yeah, but "a bomb just went astray and hit a hospital" surely.. Dude you need help. Where in that article does it say anything about carpet bombing or leveling Falluja? IT DOESN'T. So produce some article that proves or gives some credible cause to believe that we carpet bombed the city or admit you made it up. As for what is said in the article was that the city was damaged, some people are pissed about it and the americans have offered compensation in whatever way they can. That's your proof? That's about as humane a war as you can wage. BUT THIS IS A WAR. The people in Falluja were going out and killing people. we tried to solve the problem through diplomacy but the terrorists did not comply. What are we supposed to do let them conmtinue to use Falluja as a base to kill Americans and peaceful Iraqis? But you know what? I don't want to hear another word from you till you produce something credible that we carpet bombed or in any other way leveled Falluja or admit you were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Thiebear OK Mike, where did you get Carpet bombing in that story... Yes we asked the citizens to leave because we were going to attack.. But where did you read that we dropped: Daisy Cutters and other 500+pd bombs on any of the houses as opposed to trying to hit each individual target.. You do know the definition of carpet bombing right? Your just posting the: other side though right ... The dude has a severe disconnect with reality. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Close-up of a military convoy believed to be the 2nd Battalion, Seventh Cavalry. The unit was moving in southern Fallujah on November 14, 2004 during combat operations for Operation Al-Fajr. This scene was captured as it happened by the Ikonos satellite. (Source: Space Imaging Middle East, 11/14/04) Yeah, looks "leveled" to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 I don't even know what exactly you are showing me satellite pictures of, when they were taken, or what exactly they are supposed to prove. I posted an article about the situation, and you posted some random picture, of what I am not exactly sure. The issue of Falluja has been heavily debated on some cable news shows from time to time, and no one, has tried to make the argument that "oh, all we did was hit a hospital on accident" Hell, Bucahanan himself said it was leveled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike I don't even know what exactly you are showing me satellite pictures of, when they were taken, or what exactly they are supposed to prove. I posted an article about the situation, and you posted some random picture, of what I am not exactly sure. The issue of Falluja has been heavily debated on some cable news shows from time to time, and no one, has tried to make the argument that "oh, all we did was hit a hospital on accident" Hell, Bucahanan himself said it was leveled. Mike, Are you just trying to say we hit falluja with a lot of "smart" missles after we told them in advance when we were going to do it? Is that what you meant with carpet bombing? Or are you saying we just dropped thousands of bombs all over the place without regard for target? I think you mean the 2nd one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Thiebear Mike, Are you just trying to say we hit falluja with a lot of "smart" missles after we told them in advance when we were going to do it? Is that what you meant with carpet bombing? Or are you saying we just dropped thousands of bombs all over the place without regard for target? I think you mean the 2nd one. Well actually if you look back at my post, I retracted the "carpet bombing" statement yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Well actually if you look back at my post, I retracted the "carpet bombing" statement yesterday. No. You didn't. Here is your last post on the subject.... Yes sir, we did level Falluja, and there are several inqueries and investigations currently going on regarding the Falluja operation. You are the one out of touch. I am not saying we leveled all of Iraq or even all of Baghdad, but the Falluja operation alone was shady operaitons and pretty much a carpet bombing campaign. 1) We did not level Falluja. Period. Bucahanan is a moron who was using a bit of hyperbole for dramatic effect and you bought it hook, line, and sinker. 2) We did not carpet bomb or even "pretty much" carpet bomb Falluja. The satellite image above is of a US convoy driving through Falluja during the operation. You can view more, including before and after bomb assesment photos if you are interested in the truth here... http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...jah-imagery.htm Now just say "I was wrong" and this will all be over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 ok then, glad you fixed that. It bugs me when people are willing to throw the troops under the bus with no evidence... Now, about that hospital comment .. Do you think that was intentional or a misfire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Mad Mike Bucahanan is a moron who was using a bit of hyperbole for dramatic effect and you bought it hook, line, and sinker. Yeah, let me guess, Bucahanan is a tool of the "liberal media" right? How typical is it to hear "Buchanan is a moron" just because he disagrees with the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 Originally posted by Thiebear ok then, glad you fixed that. It bugs me when people are willing to throw the troops under the bus with no evidence... Now, about that hospital comment .. Do you think that was intentional or a misfire? Of course I don't think the military purposely targeted a hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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